Achilles Heel of Livecode

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Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
@ richard

I love LiveCode, use it every day, probably till the day I die, if I not meditating, singing or swinging kettle bells, and have invested in every offer presented by Kevin since you "turned me on Metacard" when I used Supercard and was looking for bigger solutions, and even bought into Revolution before it signed the agreement with Scott Raney -- I think that was circa 1990 when you sent that email.  And now I have business license "for life"  and I have a lot of respect for the team and what they try to do on some many platforms

Having said that, I have been ranting on and off the past ten years, about the Achilles Heel which is the "busted ankle" in Livecode.  Simply this:

Smooth Motion Graphics.

"We shouldn't be scripting scrollers,"

 is merely a "symptom" of a larger problem/gap/haitus in vision for the future.

Now you and I and plenty of old timers know that, e.g. the "my app" could not be duplicated by some other language or "HTML5" without spending 10 times the $ and time. I've been told that

 "Oh sure we could do that on "React/Elm/[or any other language]" (SivaSiva app) but... uh, we could not make that Word Puzzle thing you did, and that Module (stack) you made would take five time the money and effort work. But, ours will look so professional!"

So why will "The Other Thing" look "So Professional?"

 Simple: scrolling, easing, bouncing, smooth scrolling, ken burns effects and cool transitions.

I am not talking "animation" perse. Just the above. And scrolling is at ground zero of these "effects" .  It one thing to know, after 20 years of HTML, web work, PHP, Javascript, that Livecode "will be the best tool for this project in order to bring it to completion in 1/5 the time"

It's totally another thing for LC to stand alongside other languages to be tested by newbies who are

a) content producers want to develop apps - photoshop, illustration, Sketch expert...--  huge market there, but they have high production values, expectations on the "look/feel" of the first card they make. Much of which could be easily fix by tweaking the IDE.
b) a complete newbie e.g 17-year old whose been using a phone for three years, and the app he sees "do cool stuff"  but he can't make his LC app "do cool stuff"
c) old school programmer who is tired of the horrible world of JS, PHP, C++ and wants to have "fun" building solutions.

All three markets have no idea what LC can do. They test drive it, and the Achilles Heel kicks in: nothing appears to "work smoothly" (we can't even run an animated GIF in LC while doing any else on the phone) and they are on to other languages.

Kevin said in an interview in California, that he wanted LiveCode to be in the top ten languages... until we fix the Achilles Heel in the "look and feel of what you produce" in Livecode, it will never happen. For every 50 who register for a trial, I really wonder how many actually "sign up", maybe 1-3? They are who see the potential for doing "in house tools/behind the scenes software"  that don't really care how it looks...

 I hope I am wrong...or wish that in 2 years, I will be "wrong"

BR





We shouldn't be scripting scrollers.

If the control we placed on the card scrolls, it should scroll.  Doesn't 
matter if it's Mac or Windows or Linux.  Shouldn't matter if it's iOS or 
Android.

Manually typing an interaction overlay is bizarre savagery better left 
for those with a typing fetish than developers who want to be productive 
using visual development tools like LiveCode.

That this has not been addressed in the product -- even as so many of us 
have scripted libraries to take care of this automatically in script -- 
has always been concerning.

And as we approach the 10th anniversary of iPhone, that this has never 
been taken care of, or even put on a road map, the concern has grown.

Vision, anyone?

#UserExperience
#EmbraceVisualProgramming
#xTalksRule
#SomeoneHasToSayIt
#WhyIsNoOneSayingIt



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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
You are completely right.

I just quoted a job...and knowing that the customer is going to ask me
"where is the smooth scrolling?"..... i skipped over livecode entirely and
quoted it using flutter....knowing I have no explanation or chance to give
the customer the experience they expect.

Your point exactly.



On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 9:32 PM Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> @ richard
>
> I love LiveCode, use it every day, probably till the day I die, if I not
> meditating, singing or swinging kettle bells, and have invested in every
> offer presented by Kevin since you "turned me on Metacard" when I used
> Supercard and was looking for bigger solutions, and even bought into
> Revolution before it signed the agreement with Scott Raney -- I think that
> was circa 1990 when you sent that email.  And now I have business license
> "for life"  and I have a lot of respect for the team and what they try to
> do on some many platforms
>
> Having said that, I have been ranting on and off the past ten years, about
> the Achilles Heel which is the "busted ankle" in Livecode.  Simply this:
>
> Smooth Motion Graphics.
>
> "We shouldn't be scripting scrollers,"
>
>  is merely a "symptom" of a larger problem/gap/haitus in vision for the
> future.
>
> Now you and I and plenty of old timers know that, e.g. the "my app" could
> not be duplicated by some other language or "HTML5" without spending 10
> times the $ and time. I've been told that
>
>  "Oh sure we could do that on "React/Elm/[or any other language]"
> (SivaSiva app) but... uh, we could not make that Word Puzzle thing you did,
> and that Module (stack) you made would take five time the money and effort
> work. But, ours will look so professional!"
>
> So why will "The Other Thing" look "So Professional?"
>
>  Simple: scrolling, easing, bouncing, smooth scrolling, ken burns effects
> and cool transitions.
>
> I am not talking "animation" perse. Just the above. And scrolling is at
> ground zero of these "effects" .  It one thing to know, after 20 years of
> HTML, web work, PHP, Javascript, that Livecode "will be the best tool for
> this project in order to bring it to completion in 1/5 the time"
>
> It's totally another thing for LC to stand alongside other languages to be
> tested by newbies who are
>
> a) content producers want to develop apps - photoshop, illustration,
> Sketch expert...--  huge market there, but they have high production
> values, expectations on the "look/feel" of the first card they make. Much
> of which could be easily fix by tweaking the IDE.
> b) a complete newbie e.g 17-year old whose been using a phone for three
> years, and the app he sees "do cool stuff"  but he can't make his LC app
> "do cool stuff"
> c) old school programmer who is tired of the horrible world of JS, PHP,
> C++ and wants to have "fun" building solutions.
>
> All three markets have no idea what LC can do. They test drive it, and the
> Achilles Heel kicks in: nothing appears to "work smoothly" (we can't even
> run an animated GIF in LC while doing any else on the phone) and they are
> on to other languages.
>
> Kevin said in an interview in California, that he wanted LiveCode to be in
> the top ten languages... until we fix the Achilles Heel in the "look and
> feel of what you produce" in Livecode, it will never happen. For every 50
> who register for a trial, I really wonder how many actually "sign up",
> maybe 1-3? They are who see the potential for doing "in house tools/behind
> the scenes software"  that don't really care how it looks...
>
>  I hope I am wrong...or wish that in 2 years, I will be "wrong"
>
> BR
>
>
>
>
>
> We shouldn't be scripting scrollers.
>
> If the control we placed on the card scrolls, it should scroll.  Doesn't
> matter if it's Mac or Windows or Linux.  Shouldn't matter if it's iOS or
> Android.
>
> Manually typing an interaction overlay is bizarre savagery better left
> for those with a typing fetish than developers who want to be productive
> using visual development tools like LiveCode.
>
> That this has not been addressed in the product -- even as so many of us
> have scripted libraries to take care of this automatically in script --
> has always been concerning.
>
> And as we approach the 10th anniversary of iPhone, that this has never
> been taken care of, or even put on a road map, the concern has grown.
>
> Vision, anyone?
>
> #UserExperience
> #EmbraceVisualProgramming
> #xTalksRule
> #SomeoneHasToSayIt
> #WhyIsNoOneSayingIt
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


--
Tom Glod
Founder & Developer
MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793
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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
I, frankly, cannot be bothered by animated GIF images.

My experiments over the last 5-6 with a series of images used as the
*backGroundPattern*
of a graphic object has shown that if one animated at 25 images per second
(and this is what I might term the "Mickey Mouse rate" as it was
probably worked out
by Disney and/or his contemporaries) it looks like movement and does not
*jerk*
unless the images have been badly prepared.

That is, of course, only on desktop machines as I have only dipped my toes
very tentatively into mobile devices.

What is the ultimate difference for the end-user (i.e. the person who is
watching an animation)
between that sort of animation and what Brahmanathaswami means by Smooth
Scrolling?

The only real downside of flashing a series of images with a graphic
object frame
(that I am aware of) is in terms of physical storage (a lot of images
stored off-screen)

Richmond.


On 3.12.19 4:50, Tom Glod via use-livecode wrote:

> You are completely right.
>
> I just quoted a job...and knowing that the customer is going to ask me
> "where is the smooth scrolling?"..... i skipped over livecode entirely and
> quoted it using flutter....knowing I have no explanation or chance to give
> the customer the experience they expect.
>
> Your point exactly.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 9:32 PM Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> @ richard
>>
>> I love LiveCode, use it every day, probably till the day I die, if I not
>> meditating, singing or swinging kettle bells, and have invested in every
>> offer presented by Kevin since you "turned me on Metacard" when I used
>> Supercard and was looking for bigger solutions, and even bought into
>> Revolution before it signed the agreement with Scott Raney -- I think that
>> was circa 1990 when you sent that email.  And now I have business license
>> "for life"  and I have a lot of respect for the team and what they try to
>> do on some many platforms
>>
>> Having said that, I have been ranting on and off the past ten years, about
>> the Achilles Heel which is the "busted ankle" in Livecode.  Simply this:
>>
>> Smooth Motion Graphics.
>>
>> "We shouldn't be scripting scrollers,"
>>
>>   is merely a "symptom" of a larger problem/gap/haitus in vision for the
>> future.
>>
>> Now you and I and plenty of old timers know that, e.g. the "my app" could
>> not be duplicated by some other language or "HTML5" without spending 10
>> times the $ and time. I've been told that
>>
>>   "Oh sure we could do that on "React/Elm/[or any other language]"
>> (SivaSiva app) but... uh, we could not make that Word Puzzle thing you did,
>> and that Module (stack) you made would take five time the money and effort
>> work. But, ours will look so professional!"
>>
>> So why will "The Other Thing" look "So Professional?"
>>
>>   Simple: scrolling, easing, bouncing, smooth scrolling, ken burns effects
>> and cool transitions.
>>
>> I am not talking "animation" perse. Just the above. And scrolling is at
>> ground zero of these "effects" .  It one thing to know, after 20 years of
>> HTML, web work, PHP, Javascript, that Livecode "will be the best tool for
>> this project in order to bring it to completion in 1/5 the time"
>>
>> It's totally another thing for LC to stand alongside other languages to be
>> tested by newbies who are
>>
>> a) content producers want to develop apps - photoshop, illustration,
>> Sketch expert...--  huge market there, but they have high production
>> values, expectations on the "look/feel" of the first card they make. Much
>> of which could be easily fix by tweaking the IDE.
>> b) a complete newbie e.g 17-year old whose been using a phone for three
>> years, and the app he sees "do cool stuff"  but he can't make his LC app
>> "do cool stuff"
>> c) old school programmer who is tired of the horrible world of JS, PHP,
>> C++ and wants to have "fun" building solutions.
>>
>> All three markets have no idea what LC can do. They test drive it, and the
>> Achilles Heel kicks in: nothing appears to "work smoothly" (we can't even
>> run an animated GIF in LC while doing any else on the phone) and they are
>> on to other languages.
>>
>> Kevin said in an interview in California, that he wanted LiveCode to be in
>> the top ten languages... until we fix the Achilles Heel in the "look and
>> feel of what you produce" in Livecode, it will never happen. For every 50
>> who register for a trial, I really wonder how many actually "sign up",
>> maybe 1-3? They are who see the potential for doing "in house tools/behind
>> the scenes software"  that don't really care how it looks...
>>
>>   I hope I am wrong...or wish that in 2 years, I will be "wrong"
>>
>> BR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> We shouldn't be scripting scrollers.
>>
>> If the control we placed on the card scrolls, it should scroll.  Doesn't
>> matter if it's Mac or Windows or Linux.  Shouldn't matter if it's iOS or
>> Android.
>>
>> Manually typing an interaction overlay is bizarre savagery better left
>> for those with a typing fetish than developers who want to be productive
>> using visual development tools like LiveCode.
>>
>> That this has not been addressed in the product -- even as so many of us
>> have scripted libraries to take care of this automatically in script --
>> has always been concerning.
>>
>> And as we approach the 10th anniversary of iPhone, that this has never
>> been taken care of, or even put on a road map, the concern has grown.
>>
>> Vision, anyone?
>>
>> #UserExperience
>> #EmbraceVisualProgramming
>> #xTalksRule
>> #SomeoneHasToSayIt
>> #WhyIsNoOneSayingIt
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>

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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
I really am too old-fashion.

I see "apps" that have fancy animated effects and spin pretty GIFs while
doing some task to let me know that the task is being done....

... and all I can think is: If they dropped ALL the cute animation crap
and spent the CPU cycles on doing the task I wanted done, it would get
done in HALF the time!

I should probably go back to using a command line interface.



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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
For Mickey Mouse, he would have been updated 12 times per second, and almost all cartoons you’ve ever watched were animated at 12 frames per second. The film was projected at 24 frames per second, and all normal movies you’ve seen in a cinema were also at 24 frame per second. PAL TV is 25 frames per second, and NTSC is 30 frame per second. So, those frame rates are clearly acceptable.

But, they are animations and not scrolling. With scrolling, updates of 12 per second are very noticeable, and even 30 frame per second can be seen as not smooth. Open a browser on a mobile device and scroll the page. It’s smoothly updating at 60 frame per second. I think that’s what people are asking for, not animated GIFs.
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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
OK, OK . . .

So, if I have a series of images being flipped-through inside a graphic
'frame' and DON'T
have any *wait* statements the thing happens so quickly I cannot see the
animation at all: so, to get
60 frames a second, presumably, one has to have a *wait 1 tick*
statement between each frame change?

That is easy to do with frame animations . . .

Bit is it re scrolling?

On 3.12.19 15:03, Colin Holgate via use-livecode wrote:
> For Mickey Mouse, he would have been updated 12 times per second, and almost all cartoons you’ve ever watched were animated at 12 frames per second. The film was projected at 24 frames per second, and all normal movies you’ve seen in a cinema were also at 24 frame per second. PAL TV is 25 frames per second, and NTSC is 30 frame per second. So, those frame rates are clearly acceptable.
>
> But, they are animations and not scrolling. With scrolling, updates of 12 per second are very noticeable, and even 30 frame per second can be seen as not smooth. Open a browser on a mobile device and scroll the page. It’s smoothly updating at 60 frame per second. I think that’s what people are asking for, not animated GIFs.
> _______________________________________________
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
If you want to have a really sexy development with fancy animation stuff, take a look at the brochure of WinDev.
It's a French based company so I don't have to add any comment ;-)

https://www.pcsoft-windev-webdev.com/WX24-Features.pdf?201906121510



On 03/12/2019, 14:50, "use-livecode on behalf of Richmond via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    OK, OK . . .
   
    So, if I have a series of images being flipped-through inside a graphic
    'frame' and DON'T
    have any *wait* statements the thing happens so quickly I cannot see the
    animation at all: so, to get
    60 frames a second, presumably, one has to have a *wait 1 tick*
    statement between each frame change?
   
    That is easy to do with frame animations . . .
   
    Bit is it re scrolling?
   
    On 3.12.19 15:03, Colin Holgate via use-livecode wrote:
    > For Mickey Mouse, he would have been updated 12 times per second, and almost all cartoons you’ve ever watched were animated at 12 frames per second. The film was projected at 24 frames per second, and all normal movies you’ve seen in a cinema were also at 24 frame per second. PAL TV is 25 frames per second, and NTSC is 30 frame per second. So, those frame rates are clearly acceptable.
    >
    > But, they are animations and not scrolling. With scrolling, updates of 12 per second are very noticeable, and even 30 frame per second can be seen as not smooth. Open a browser on a mobile device and scroll the page. It’s smoothly updating at 60 frame per second. I think that’s what people are asking for, not animated GIFs.
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > [hidden email]
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
   
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    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Try writing a serious arcade game with LiveCode.
Sorry but it just isn’t up to the task as it isn’t fast
enough.

Remember Compile-It for Hypercard?  Perhaps
we need something similar for LiveCode that
would run at standalone creation time, or
whenever we request it for that extra-speed.

I know the system took a big hit with Unicode,
so how about the option to turn it off for programs
requiring super speed?

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Enjoy your day!

Rick
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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Paul Dupuis wrote:

 > I see "apps" that have fancy animated effects and spin pretty GIFs
 > while doing some task to let me know that the task is being done....
 >
 > ... and all I can think is: If they dropped ALL the cute animation
 > crap and spent the CPU cycles on doing the task I wanted done, it
 > would get done in HALF the time!

With modern multi-core systems, small independent tasks like threaded
GIFs would not impair performance of core business logic.  Indeed,
without even the option of threaded GIF playback, it isn't possible to
make a progress indicator that doesn't affect overall performance, in
addition to having disturbingly jerky appearance.

But consider other common UI conventions, like a swipe transition.
Swipes are common in mobile apps, very satisfying on touch devices, do
not impair core logic performance - and are nearly impossible to
implement in LC without an engine enhancement (or obviating the benefits
of the card metaphor by putting your entire UI into groups on one card
and hand-crafting your swipe handling).

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Rick Harrison wrote:

 > Try writing a serious arcade game with LiveCode.
 > Sorry but it just isn’t up to the task as it isn’t fast
 > enough.

Agreed, but I don't know what the solution is.  Maybe Mark Waddingham
can chime in here with guidance.

 > Remember Compile-It for Hypercard?  Perhaps
 > we need something similar for LiveCode that
 > would run at standalone creation time, or
 > whenever we request it for that extra-speed.

If you've ever slugged through trying to actually build an external with
Compile-It, I think you'll agree it's not the answer here.

Moreover, simply having access to any compiler won't do much for the
engine's rendering algo.  Deep revisions at the engine level would be
needed for any significant boost to *rendering* performance.

 > I know the system took a big hit with Unicode,
 > so how about the option to turn it off for programs
 > requiring super speed?

Unicode does impact many text operations, but has minimal impact on
rendering.  The switch to Skia as the rendering engine is likely more
relevant, and occurred during a similar time period.

But since Skia is so widely used by so many apps, I'd like to believe
there's a way LC can use to get results on par with other systems that
use it.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
I used Compile-it forever. It was faster than the compiled v.2x HC by orders of magnitude.
But, and this is hardly a fair test, I get over 8 million passes per second through a repeat loop in LC if I do not tax it overmuch, say, adding 1 to a variable on each pass.
The point is, how much more speed can be garnered if a new complier was attached to the engine?
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Harrison via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email]>
Cc: Rick Harrison <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2019 2:20 pm
Subject: Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Try writing a serious arcade game with LiveCode.
Sorry but it just isn’t up to the task as it isn’t fast
enough.

Remember Compile-It for Hypercard?  Perhaps
we need something similar for LiveCode that
would run at standalone creation time, or
whenever we request it for that extra-speed.

I know the system took a big hit with Unicode,
so how about the option to turn it off for programs
requiring super speed?

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Enjoy your day!

Rick
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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
On 12/3/19 1:24 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> But consider other common UI conventions, like a swipe transition.

This is one of my top wish-list items for mobile. Visual effects aren't
the same, the swipe needs to follow the user's finger.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
On 12/3/19 6:32 AM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode wrote:
> If you want to have a really sexy development with fancy animation stuff, take a look at the brochure of WinDev.
> It's a French based company so I don't have to add any comment ;-)
>
> https://www.pcsoft-windev-webdev.com/WX24-Features.pdf?201906121510

Thanks. Looks interesting, but appears to be Windows-only.

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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Their website is terrible to see what the product actually is and does.

But ok after looking for a while i thought wow, if can do all that. And
you only need to pay once as far as i can see, although it might be a
lot more.

It offers Java, iOs, Android, Windows, Mac, PHP, Linux, Win ce, Iot...

Going to test a trialversion, it downloads almost 3GB at install, let's
see how it works.

Op 3-12-2019 om 15:32 schreef Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode:

> If you want to have a really sexy development with fancy animation stuff, take a look at the brochure of WinDev.
> It's a French based company so I don't have to add any comment ;-)
>
> https://www.pcsoft-windev-webdev.com/WX24-Features.pdf?201906121510
>
>
>
> On 03/12/2019, 14:50, "use-livecode on behalf of Richmond via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>      OK, OK . . .
>      
>      So, if I have a series of images being flipped-through inside a graphic
>      'frame' and DON'T
>      have any *wait* statements the thing happens so quickly I cannot see the
>      animation at all: so, to get
>      60 frames a second, presumably, one has to have a *wait 1 tick*
>      statement between each frame change?
>      
>      That is easy to do with frame animations . . .
>      
>      Bit is it re scrolling?
>      
>      On 3.12.19 15:03, Colin Holgate via use-livecode wrote:
>      > For Mickey Mouse, he would have been updated 12 times per second, and almost all cartoons you’ve ever watched were animated at 12 frames per second. The film was projected at 24 frames per second, and all normal movies you’ve seen in a cinema were also at 24 frame per second. PAL TV is 25 frames per second, and NTSC is 30 frame per second. So, those frame rates are clearly acceptable.
>      >
>      > But, they are animations and not scrolling. With scrolling, updates of 12 per second are very noticeable, and even 30 frame per second can be seen as not smooth. Open a browser on a mobile device and scroll the page. It’s smoothly updating at 60 frame per second. I think that’s what people are asking for, not animated GIFs.
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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
My comment was meant as a joke by the way not to promote the product!The brochure was funny to me because of the used graphics.
Best,Erik




On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 9:26 PM +0100, "Mark Wieder via use-livecode" <[hidden email]> wrote:










On 12/3/19 6:32 AM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode wrote:
> If you want to have a really sexy development with fancy animation stuff, take a look at the brochure of WinDev.
> It's a French based company so I don't have to add any comment ;-)
>
> https://www.pcsoft-windev-webdev.com/WX24-Features.pdf?201906121510

Thanks. Looks interesting, but appears to be Windows-only.

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  Mark Wieder
  [hidden email]

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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode

Rick:

 > Try writing a serious arcade game with LiveCode.
 > Sorry but it just isn’t up to the task as it isn’t
 > fast enough.

That contains both true and false elements.

True: LC is FAR too slow, and despite some progress lately in partially
getting back to where it was, still needs a serious ongoing effort to
finish that and then get to where it should be.

(Of course such efforts may be hampered by even more fundamental needs
such as a sustainable net level of bugs and quality/reliability. Hasty
code can be very expensive, and doubly so in the long run.)

False: Because indeed you can. It's up to the coder.

Games tend to push the limits of hardware and/or software, so developing
games is a great way to build skills that many people lack. Not being
able to write an arcade game with LiveCode means there is a big
opportunity to learn and experience more about game design methods and
history. Including amazing games on some very limited platforms. I think
every coder should have some experience on a system with limited speed
and memory; otherwise people are undisciplined and it's difficult to
hone technique.

Think optimization x 10, plus cunning choices. What we see in games
isn't all just brute strength with first-thought design and code. I've
already demo'd LC arcade game on video at least once, on a budget PC, so
there's no question. And published games in the past. Too busy keeping
up with other work and LC bugs to finish a new game lately, but it's not
hard. FPS won't be the strongest point for anything LC, but that's why
it's called game DESIGN and not "today it rained; ah yes, and also a
game happened." Yes, including arcade.

But I agree - LC is too slow, and it impacts what people can do with it.
Games are a good example, but actually the least of my concerns in that
regard!

 > I know the system took a big hit with Unicode

Not just Unicode. The system took a big hit with 7, period. A lot of
code in a short time with a lot of problems. In many areas; speed is
only one. Still devoting a large portion of my life to help find,
report, and workaround 7-9 bugs and changes, yes including slowdowns,
but many other issues and also some new limitations. A solid IDE would
help too.

Previously donated many hours of my time and invested my sales proceeds
back to cover time helping to debug 7 and 8. Client deadlines first, so
I still haven't gotten some my own products fully in line yet with all
of LC's 7-9 bugs, changes, and limits. LC is a fast-moving target in
terms of bugs and breaking changes, if not in terms of FPS! Try that for
a real-life arcade game shoot-em-up. :)

Anyway, don't let that dampen the pre-Christmas cheer:

A) Peace on earth and Goodwill toward men, hopefully. B) Some good LC
features and updates in the last few years. C) Some LC speed
improvements during 9. Half-way toward where it used to be in 6,
although even that was way behind JS for instance. D) Some good bug
fixes; just need to realize the reality of bug sustainability vs team
coder hours and budget, and therefore embrace higher quality. E)
Positivi-tay - Bugs? What bugs? See no evil, speak no evil. J/K of
course. F) Yes, you can make games, fast LCS utilities, good animations,
and other cool stuff in LCS if you hone skills and practice code
discipline and improvement. This is proven fact, not opinion. G) I (and
others) help people achieve such things when they have problems. LC
users are releasing amazing products. H) There are other great things in
the works - can't say more at this time.

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
On 12/3/19 3:40 PM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode wrote:
> My comment was meant as a joke by the way not to promote the product!The brochure was funny to me because of the used graphics.

Yes, I got the part about it being a joke. And that pdf is unbearably
hard to read. Nonetheless, there are some *very* interesting ideas there.

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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Wow.......I have never ever seen a website like that.  The PDF is the most
incredible piece of typesetting the world has ever seen.

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 7:11 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/3/19 3:40 PM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode wrote:
> > My comment was meant as a joke by the way not to promote the product!The
> brochure was funny to me because of the used graphics.
>
> Yes, I got the part about it being a joke. And that pdf is unbearably
> hard to read. Nonetheless, there are some *very* interesting ideas there.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
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MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
Office:226-706-9339
Mobile:226-706-9793
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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
LOL  ;-)


On 05/12/2019, 13:56, "use-livecode on behalf of Tom Glod via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    Wow.......I have never ever seen a website like that.  The PDF is the most
    incredible piece of typesetting the world has ever seen.
   
    On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 7:11 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
    [hidden email]> wrote:
   
    > On 12/3/19 3:40 PM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode wrote:
    > > My comment was meant as a joke by the way not to promote the product!The
    > brochure was funny to me because of the used graphics.
    >
    > Yes, I got the part about it being a joke. And that pdf is unbearably
    > hard to read. Nonetheless, there are some *very* interesting ideas there.
    >
    > --
    >   Mark Wieder
    >   [hidden email]
    >
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    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
    > subscription preferences:
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    >
   
   
    --
    Tom Glod
    Founder & Developer
    MakeShyft R.D.A (www.makeshyft.com)
    Office:226-706-9339
    Mobile:226-706-9793
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    use-livecode mailing list
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    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: Achilles Heel of Livecode

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Hi Tom,

Your comment enticed me to take a look at that PDF.
Someone put a lot of work into it for sure!

Apparently they wanted a magazine format for it.
Perhaps that’s what they are used to doing for their
old day job?

My eyes still hurt from trying to look at all of the
information there.  Information overload for me.

Rick

> On Dec 5, 2019, at 7:54 AM, Tom Glod via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Wow.......I have never ever seen a website like that.  The PDF is the most
> incredible piece of typesetting the world has ever seen.

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