Another Doc Thought

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
18 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Another Doc Thought

Dan Shafer
It may not be all that obvious but one of the reasons there's not  
better documentation on SOME of the things in the Rev IDE is because  
someone knows they're going to change in an upcoming revision and  
doesn't want to spend gobs of time documenting something that will  
soon be obsolete.

I KNOW that's the case about at least one aspect of things because  
the RR folks were kind enough to steer me away from a project I  
thought of a while back by warning me that it would be changing in an  
upcoming release.

Already my first book is, while not obsolete, at least a little aged  
because of IDE UI changes that took place between its release and the  
2.6 product.

That's one reason I hate to write printed books these days. An eBook  
can be published and then updated as needed one time at no production  
cost.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dan Shafer, Revolution Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
 From http://www.revolutionpros.com, Click "My Stuff"



_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

Richard Gaskin
Dan Shafer wrote:

> It may not be all that obvious but one of the reasons there's not  
> better documentation on SOME of the things in the Rev IDE is because  
> someone knows they're going to change in an upcoming revision and  
> doesn't want to spend gobs of time documenting something that will  soon
> be obsolete.
>
> I KNOW that's the case about at least one aspect of things because  the
> RR folks were kind enough to steer me away from a project I  thought of
> a while back by warning me that it would be changing in an  upcoming
> release.
>
> Already my first book is, while not obsolete, at least a little aged  
> because of IDE UI changes that took place between its release and the  
> 2.6 product.
>
> That's one reason I hate to write printed books these days. An eBook  
> can be published and then updated as needed one time at no production  
> cost.

Amen to that, brother.  I did the technical edit for "GoLive 5 Bible",
and it took months to write, test, edit, and revise.  Once released,
like most books on software products it had a shelf life only slightly
longer than the time it took to write it.  GL6 came out less than a year
later, GL7 less than a year after that.

Most software undergoes a significant UI overhaul on the average of
about once a year.

I will never write a book on a specific software product.  I'd write
about the language happily, but the UI?  Fuggedaboudit.  :)

But the question here is:  Is Rev's UI really that opaque?  Or is it the
underlying concepts which drive the UI?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Media Corporation
  __________________________________________________
  Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev
_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

Dan Shafer
Yes, indeed, brother Richard, that IS the question, is it not?

I think what we're hearing here -- and I'm certainly interpolating --  
is a cry for the book described at RevCon West as an "architecture"  
book. A book that shows in painstaking detail, step by step through  
the IDE and the language, how to build various kinds of applications.  
That is a huge task. Huge.

(BTW, there's another issue for me that probably doesn't concern  
anyone else. When people on the list contribute free documentation-
like things -- tutorial stacks, how-tos, etc. -- I want at one and  
the same time to applaud loudly and groan quietly. Because, you see,  
if someone ELSE is writing something on the same topic and perhaps  
putting in a lot of effort and time and energy with the hope of  
selling the product and someone else comes along and offers something  
-- even if not quite as good or complete -- for free, it crushes the  
spirit if not the market. A clearing-house for volunteer effort would  
help avoid such things but that begs the question of who would set up  
and manage such a thing.

Sigh.


On Jul 25, 2005, at 10:27 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> But the question here is:  Is Rev's UI really that opaque?  Or is  
> it the underlying concepts which drive the UI?
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dan Shafer, Revolution Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
 From http://www.revolutionpros.com, Click "My Stuff"



_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

Richard Gaskin
Dan Shafer wrote:
> Yes, indeed, brother Richard, that IS the question, is it not?
>
> I think what we're hearing here -- and I'm certainly interpolating --  
> is a cry for the book described at RevCon West as an "architecture"  
> book. A book that shows in painstaking detail, step by step through  the
> IDE and the language, how to build various kinds of applications.  That
> is a huge task. Huge.

Very.

But if we could teach the art of dissection, the people could learn from
existing code without need as much explanation.

Am I dreaming?

I learned so much dissecting HyperCard and SuperCard examples, almost as
much as the dictionaries.  Never really read much of anything else from
either of those products but the dictionary and sample code.  Maybe
that's helpful, or maybe I'm just a freak.


> (BTW, there's another issue for me that probably doesn't concern  anyone
> else. When people on the list contribute free documentation- like things
> -- tutorial stacks, how-tos, etc. -- I want at one and  the same time to
> applaud loudly and groan quietly. Because, you see,  if someone ELSE is
> writing something on the same topic and perhaps  putting in a lot of
> effort and time and energy with the hope of  selling the product and
> someone else comes along and offers something  -- even if not quite as
> good or complete -- for free, it crushes the  spirit if not the market.
> A clearing-house for volunteer effort would  help avoid such things but
> that begs the question of who would set up  and manage such a thing.

I can't imagine there are that many potentially in conflict.  Maybe the
RevDocs group could be used for that?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Media Corporation
  __________________________________________________
  Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev
_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

Charles Hartman
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
(since I'm one who said something vaguely curmudgeonly about the UI)

No, it's not opaque, and the underlying concepts are _unusually_  
clear. I think it behaves oddly. Focus, especially, seems to trip up  
(dumb old) me all the time. I press a left arrow thinking I'm about  
to nudge a widget, and suddenly cards are going by, because the focus  
isn't on the widget even though its "selected" box is showing. That's  
an example of the kind of absolutely microscopic problem which, for  
someone just getting used to any environment, gets translated, or  
magnified, into an impression of conceptual difficulty.

Another example: I put up an Inspector for my main stack, and lock it  
so I can refer to the list of my custom properties while I inspect  
other stuff. I select and Inspect and edit various other objects. At  
some point (??) I discover that in the locked Inspector the name of  
my main stack has been changed. (The title of the Inspector window  
and also the Name property it shows.) Alarm! Is my main stack about  
to get screwed up, saved under the wrong name, or what? I panic and  
change the name and close the Inspector. Don't know what happened,  
but I'm nervous about trying that again, and since I'm paying  
attention to all the other stuff I'm trying to learn about the  
language, the interface, my design, etc., this avoidance registers as  
generalized UI dread. Again, this isn't (I think) a big deal -- it  
only _looks_ like a big deal and translates into an impression of a  
confusing interface, even though it's a detail and not a genuine  
conceptual mystery.

Charles Hartman

On Jul 26, 2005, at 1:27 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> But the question here is:  Is Rev's UI really that opaque?  Or is  
> it the underlying concepts which drive the UI?
>

_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

william humphrey-2
That happens to me all the time. I just change the name of the main stack
back. I think it happens when you think a particular object is selected and
it is actually the main stack that is selected.

But how would you fix this?


On 7/26/05 9:12 AM, "Charles Hartman" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> some point (??) I discover that in the locked Inspector the name of
> my main stack has been changed. (The title of the Inspector window

            |    |    |
           )_)  )_)  )_)
          )___))___))___)\
         )____)____)_____)\\
       _____|____|____|____\\\__
-------\                   /--------- http://www.bluewatermaritime.com
 ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  ^^^^      ^^^^     ^^^    ^^
       ^^^^      ^^^

24 hour cell: (787) 378-6190
fax: (787) 809-8426

Blue Water Maritime
P.O. Box 91
Puerto Real, PR 00740



_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

xbury.cs
Hi guys,

i've had it happened too. Now, im more careful...
you can always make sure you have selected your control by double clicking
it...

cheers
Xavier


[hidden email] wrote on 26/07/2005 15:39:34:

> That happens to me all the time. I just change the name of the main
stack
> back. I think it happens when you think a particular object is selected
and
> it is actually the main stack that is selected.
>
> But how would you fix this?
>
>
> On 7/26/05 9:12 AM, "Charles Hartman" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> > some point (??) I discover that in the locked Inspector the name of
> > my main stack has been changed. (The title of the Inspector window
>
>             |    |    |
>            )_)  )_)  )_)
>           )___))___))___)\
>          )____)____)_____)\\
>        _____|____|____|____\\\__
> -------\                   /--------- http://www.bluewatermaritime.com
>  ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   ^^^^      ^^^^     ^^^    ^^
>        ^^^^      ^^^
>
> 24 hour cell: (787) 378-6190
> fax: (787) 809-8426
>
> Blue Water Maritime
> P.O. Box 91
> Puerto Real, PR 00740
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution



-----------------------------------------
Visit us at http://www.clearstream.com
                                                         
IMPORTANT MESSAGE

Internet communications are not secure and therefore Clearstream
International does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of
this message.

The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be
legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are
not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or
any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is
prohibited and may be unlawful. Any views expressed in this e-mail are
those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically
states them to be the views of Clearstream International or of any of
its affiliates or subsidiaries.

END OF DISCLAIMER
_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

Alejandro Tejada-2
In reply to this post by Dan Shafer

>on Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:21:59 -0700
>Dan Shafer wrote:
>
>That's one reason I hate to write printed books these days. An eBook
>can be published and then updated as needed one time at no production
>cost.

Richard Gaskin wrote:


>Most software undergoes a significant UI overhaul on the average of
>about once a year.
>
>I will never write a book on a specific software product.  I'd write
>about the language happily, but the UI?  Fuggedaboudit.  :)

Actually, i suspect that people is shy to ask about things that,
because are not explained, seems obvious.

But in the end, they are not so obvious and they goes mostly unnoticed.
Why nobody in these docs, tutorials, books messages had mentioned
two university courses for learning RR and MC?

Richard Gaskin has a link to these and other helpful resources
in his website. Are these resources largely unnoticed?

About the docs for RR... many years ago, i download a pdf and
print all the pages. More than 1,500 pages.

Am i the only one that print that pdf?

Before than printing this extensive document, i've have copied
pasted and printed the Metacard help and dictionary.

Should i ask again... Was i the only one to do that? :-(

Notice, i'm not a professional developer (my work prove this),
but even me had noticed that learning programming requires effort
and the area which i had choose to work with (pdf,ai,beziers,etc)
is mostly unexplored... but i do not complain. i simply keep
going and with time and effort, everything start to make sense...
and somehow working as i though it should.

Maybe after all, programming is as much a discovery as a sudden
realization. (eureka! factor).

How much time took to each of you to discover this?

Peace.
Have a nice day :-)

al


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/05


_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

Jon-3
In reply to this post by william humphrey-2
"But how would you fix this?"

By making the IDE UI less confusing?!?  This is a good example of why RR
is so difficult for the uninitiated, and still somewhat confusing to the
moderately experienced.  You can't be productive when you're not
confident that the IDE's UI is under YOUR control.

:)

Jon


Bill wrote:

>That happens to me all the time. I just change the name of the main stack
>back. I think it happens when you think a particular object is selected and
>it is actually the main stack that is selected.
>
>But how would you fix this?
>
>
>On 7/26/05 9:12 AM, "Charles Hartman" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>some point (??) I discover that in the locked Inspector the name of
>>my main stack has been changed. (The title of the Inspector window
>>    
>>
>
>            |    |    |
>           )_)  )_)  )_)
>          )___))___))___)\
>         )____)____)_____)\\
>       _____|____|____|____\\\__
>-------\                   /--------- http://www.bluewatermaritime.com
> ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  ^^^^      ^^^^     ^^^    ^^
>       ^^^^      ^^^
>
>24 hour cell: (787) 378-6190
>fax: (787) 809-8426
>
>Blue Water Maritime
>P.O. Box 91
>Puerto Real, PR 00740
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>use-revolution mailing list
>[hidden email]
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>
>
>  
>
_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

Jon-3
In reply to this post by xbury.cs
I'm not sure that "having to be more careful" is what will attract new
users to RR...

:)

Jon


[hidden email] wrote:

>Hi guys,
>
>i've had it happened too. Now, im more careful...
>you can always make sure you have selected your control by double clicking
>it...
>
>cheers
>Xavier
>
>
>[hidden email] wrote on 26/07/2005 15:39:34:
>
>  
>
>>That happens to me all the time. I just change the name of the main
>>    
>>
>stack
>  
>
>>back. I think it happens when you think a particular object is selected
>>    
>>
>and
>  
>
>>it is actually the main stack that is selected.
>>
>>But how would you fix this?
>>
>>
>>On 7/26/05 9:12 AM, "Charles Hartman" <[hidden email]>
>>    
>>
>wrote:
>  
>
>>>some point (??) I discover that in the locked Inspector the name of
>>>my main stack has been changed. (The title of the Inspector window
>>>      
>>>
>>            |    |    |
>>           )_)  )_)  )_)
>>          )___))___))___)\
>>         )____)____)_____)\\
>>       _____|____|____|____\\\__
>>-------\                   /--------- http://www.bluewatermaritime.com
>> ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  ^^^^      ^^^^     ^^^    ^^
>>       ^^^^      ^^^
>>
>>24 hour cell: (787) 378-6190
>>fax: (787) 809-8426
>>
>>Blue Water Maritime
>>P.O. Box 91
>>Puerto Real, PR 00740
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>use-revolution mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>subscription preferences:
>>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------
>Visit us at http://www.clearstream.com
>                                                          
>IMPORTANT MESSAGE
>
>Internet communications are not secure and therefore Clearstream
>International does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of
>this message.
>
>The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be
>legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are
>not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or
>any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is
>prohibited and may be unlawful. Any views expressed in this e-mail are
>those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically
>states them to be the views of Clearstream International or of any of
>its affiliates or subsidiaries.
>
>END OF DISCLAIMER
>_______________________________________________
>use-revolution mailing list
>[hidden email]
>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>
>
>  
>
_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

capellan
In reply to this post by Dan Shafer
i send this message, from another mail direction,
so it will take a while before it appears in
this mail list. Sorry if this appears twice. :-)

on Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:21:59 -0700
Dan Shafer wrote:

> That's one reason I hate to write printed books
these
> days. An eBook can be published and then updated as
> needed one time at no production cost.

Richard Gaskin wrote:

> Most software undergoes a significant UI overhaul on

> the average of about once a year.
> I will never write a book on a specific software
> product.  I'd write about the language happily, but
> the UI?  Fuggedaboudit.  :)

Dan and Richard
Actually, i suspect that people is shy to ask about
things that, because are not explained, seems obvious.
But in the end, they are not so obvious and they go
mostly unnoticed.

Why nobody in these docs, tutorials, books messages
had
mentioned two university courses for learning RR and
MC?

Richard Gaskin has a link to these and other helpful
resources in his website. Are these resources largely
unnoticed?

About the docs for RR... many years ago, i download a
pdf and print all the pages. More than 1,500 pages.

Was me the only one who print that pdf? :-(

Before printing this extensive document, i've have
copied, pasted and printed the Metacard help and
dictionary.

Should i ask again... Was me the only one to do that?
:-(

Notice, i'm not a professional developer
(my work prove this),but even me had noticed that
learning programming in this platform requires effort
and the area which i had choose to work with
(pdf,ai,beziers,etc) is mostly unexplored...
but i do not complain. i simply keep going and with
time and effort, everything start to make sense...
and somehow working as i though it should.

Maybe after all, programming is as much an intelligent
effort as a discovery and a sudden realization.

How much time took to each of you to discover this?

Peace.
Have a nice day :-)

al


Visit my site:
http://www.geocities.com/capellan2000/


               
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 
_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

Dan Shafer
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin

On Jul 25, 2005, at 11:47 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> But if we could teach the art of dissection, the people could learn  
> from existing code without need as much explanation.
>
> Am I dreaming?
>
> I learned so much dissecting HyperCard and SuperCard examples,  
> almost as much as the dictionaries.  Never really read much of  
> anything else from either of those products but the dictionary and  
> sample code.  Maybe that's helpful, or maybe I'm just a freak.
>
I don't think you're a freak. But I think: (a) probably not many  
people learn this way, at least in the early going; and (b) this is a  
difficult skill to teach, perhaps more difficult than programming.

>
>
>> (BTW, there's another issue for me that probably doesn't concern  
>> anyone else. When people on the list contribute free  
>> documentation- like things -- tutorial stacks, how-tos, etc. -- I  
>> want at one and  the same time to applaud loudly and groan  
>> quietly. Because, you see,  if someone ELSE is writing something  
>> on the same topic and perhaps  putting in a lot of effort and time  
>> and energy with the hope of  selling the product and someone else  
>> comes along and offers something  -- even if not quite as good or  
>> complete -- for free, it crushes the  spirit if not the market. A  
>> clearing-house for volunteer effort would  help avoid such things  
>> but that begs the question of who would set up  and manage such a  
>> thing.
>>
>
> I can't imagine there are that many potentially in conflict.  Maybe  
> the RevDocs group could be used for that?
>
It doesn't take very many. One or two "false starts" like that can  
discourage someone with less masochistic tendencies than I have. :-D




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dan Shafer, Revolution Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
 From http://www.revolutionpros.com, Click "My Stuff"



_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Another Doc Thought

MisterX
In reply to this post by Jon-3
Hi Jon,

Im the first one to jump on the detonate button when it comes to
idiosyncratic software i can't control. And rev really hit me where
it hurts the most last time with teh GM. I bought Rev so i could have
their GM and it became my biggest nightmare...

6 months later, i wrote my own and im 4X better off... And unless Rev
comes out with the significant bug fixes i've been waiting for, im not
upgrading... at work (enterprise), or at home (studio).

Now, that's the casual bug i run into. I got a few 100's bugzillas and
i keep creating them. And i think that when these will be fixed, like
many others, i'll have to shell a license upgrade. Uh, that a big rant.

Dont hate, me, im just a factoid... The point is that i learned something
from that limitation, created a much more flexible and run-steady GM for
rev and MC, and now, scripting is just faster every day... But note we
dont all work at the same scale of things...

For some a small stack can be daunting, while for others an algoritm in
a framework is much harder than the framework itself!

Thing is that most people think this is confusing while they dont compare
it to another programming environment (most of which are 10X more confusing
and tedious) but which many new comers here dont put into the equation.

Tried learning C lately? Ever seen a single IDE language "how to get
started"
in those IDE boxes? Did you have to buy an OS reference on top? Spend a week
in a technit website to find one stupid problem?

All these are not considered. Many of us started programming in C and didn't
ask the Symantec ThinkC or the Metrowerks team how to write C. And this is
a major problem when it's compounded with an interface - script api that is
just so oblivious to complex myobject = &(new*) thisarray.object++; kinds of
constructs.

I see a nice boat below, know a sailing boat that comes with sailing
instructions? Know a car manufacturer that delivers the rules of the
road book along with the insurance tips and all the shortcuts to go to work?

You got my point...

Second point... (you didn't think it was that easy did you?)

practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice,
practice,
compile, compile, compile, compile, compile, compile, compile, compile,
test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test,
test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test,
test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test, test,
fix a few things and hop, deliver... correct the announcement mail 3 times,
fix the url 1 or 2 times, etc...

other than that, it's marketing, and that's another manual that wasn't
furnished in the damn ide either!

One trick: if you build solid software from the start, you wont have to
rewrite it again and write bugzillas for the rest... that's the sorcery
of software - nobody is perfect in the chain of software - luck for those
who practice a lot, there's more than one way to do everything. That's
where the skill of programming kicks in... Rev is just a pneumatic-nailer
compared to a hammer and box of nails... Whatever you build still needs
to be based on solid computing design principles in both the GUI, the
program code, the external IO, and the best practical economic benefit
for the user.

How to use this great-maillist:

Did i mention testing? Never deliver a half-made stack for testing!
People here hate that. I got one praise for my last winNO2 plugin,
only one testing request, and nothing else... Lots of jealous people
out there it seems who dont encourage that people test their apps, but
if you just ask if they can solve a problem then you'll get a miriad
solutions, bug rants, etc...

cheers
Xavier
http://monsieurx.com Keep out - Taoist empty object shooting zone


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jon
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 16:32
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: Another Doc Thought
>
> "But how would you fix this?"
>
> By making the IDE UI less confusing?!?  This is a good
> example of why RR is so difficult for the uninitiated, and
> still somewhat confusing to the moderately experienced.  You
> can't be productive when you're not confident that the IDE's
> UI is under YOUR control.
>
> :)
>
> Jon
>
>
> Bill wrote:
>
> >That happens to me all the time. I just change the name of
> the main stack
> >back. I think it happens when you think a particular object
> is selected and
> >it is actually the main stack that is selected.
> >
> >But how would you fix this?
> >
> >
> >On 7/26/05 9:12 AM, "Charles Hartman"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>some point (??) I discover that in the locked Inspector the name of
> >>my main stack has been changed. (The title of the Inspector window
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >            |    |    |
> >           )_)  )_)  )_)
> >          )___))___))___)\
> >         )____)____)_____)\\
> >       _____|____|____|____\\\__
> >-------\                   /---------
> http://www.bluewatermaritime.com
> > ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >  ^^^^      ^^^^     ^^^    ^^
> >       ^^^^      ^^^
> >
> >24 hour cell: (787) 378-6190
> >fax: (787) 809-8426
> >
> >Blue Water Maritime
> >P.O. Box 91
> >Puerto Real, PR 00740
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >use-revolution mailing list
> >[hidden email]
> >Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage
> your subscription preferences:
> >http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage
> your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>

_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Another Doc Thought

MisterX
In reply to this post by Jon-3

ever used a C pointer? Made a careless mistake and your mac or pc
 went "piiiing, cht cht cht, rrrrrr, where's my system disk?"

try it sometimes, yet it brings hoards of programmers if you tell
them it's C sharp or C turbo or C ++ or C nirvana!

;)
X

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jon
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 16:36
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: Another Doc Thought
>
> I'm not sure that "having to be more careful" is what will
> attract new users to RR...
>
> :)
>
> Jon
>
>
> [hidden email] wrote:
>
> >Hi guys,
> >
> >i've had it happened too. Now, im more careful...
> >you can always make sure you have selected your control by double
> >clicking it...
> >
> >cheers
> >Xavier
> >
> >
> >[hidden email] wrote on 26/07/2005 15:39:34:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>That happens to me all the time. I just change the name of the main
> >>    
> >>
> >stack
> >  
> >
> >>back. I think it happens when you think a particular object is
> >>selected
> >>    
> >>
> >and
> >  
> >
> >>it is actually the main stack that is selected.
> >>
> >>But how would you fix this?
> >>
> >>
> >>On 7/26/05 9:12 AM, "Charles Hartman" <[hidden email]>
> >>    
> >>
> >wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>>some point (??) I discover that in the locked Inspector
> the name of
> >>>my main stack has been changed. (The title of the Inspector window
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>            |    |    |
> >>           )_)  )_)  )_)
> >>          )___))___))___)\
> >>         )____)____)_____)\\
> >>       _____|____|____|____\\\__
> >>-------\                   /---------
> http://www.bluewatermaritime.com
> >> ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>  ^^^^      ^^^^     ^^^    ^^
> >>       ^^^^      ^^^
> >>
> >>24 hour cell: (787) 378-6190
> >>fax: (787) 809-8426
> >>
> >>Blue Water Maritime
> >>P.O. Box 91
> >>Puerto Real, PR 00740
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>use-revolution mailing list
> >>[hidden email]
> >>Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >>subscription preferences:
> >>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------
> >Visit us at http://www.clearstream.com
> >                                                          
> >IMPORTANT MESSAGE
> >
> >Internet communications are not secure and therefore Clearstream
> >International does not accept legal responsibility for the
> contents of
> >this message.
> >
> >The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be
> >legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee.
> If you are
> >not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or
> >any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is
> >prohibited and may be unlawful. Any views expressed in this
> e-mail are
> >those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically
> >states them to be the views of Clearstream International or
> of any of
> >its affiliates or subsidiaries.
> >
> >END OF DISCLAIMER
> >_______________________________________________
> >use-revolution mailing list
> >[hidden email]
> >Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage
> your subscription preferences:
> >http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage
> your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>

_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Another Doc Thought

MisterX
In reply to this post by Alejandro Tejada-2

> >on Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:21:59 -0700
> >Dan Shafer wrote:
> >
> >That's one reason I hate to write printed books these days. An eBook
> >can be published and then updated as needed one time at no
> production cost.

most economic, trendy, cost-effective, editable medium today is the web...

just my .00000000000000000000000000000002 cents...

I just hate writing the theory, it's more fun to script it right out!

The typical cycle in a rev programmer's life is

woah!
hummmmm
maillist - it just doesn't work!
maillist - it's crap
maillist - aaah
woah, it works!
cool my first program*
maillist - it stopped working, im lost
maillist - aaah!
cool my first cool program
maillist - where's the 3d stuff everyone has (or color cursors, or normal
html rendering, etc...)
maillist - rant where is it?
maillist - darn... hurry up rev...
cool, i managed to interpret it in xtalk
maillist - my new cooler than cool program
maillist - thanks thanks
maillist - oops, a mistake slipped in!
(GOTO "cool, my second program")* -- and third, and so on...
just have to abide to the cycle

Xavier, IT economist
http://monsieurx.com - fun with x-economics

_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

mwieder
In reply to this post by Jon-3
Jon-

Tuesday, July 26, 2005, 7:32:29 AM, you wrote:

J> By making the IDE UI less confusing?!?  This is a good example of why RR

I'm not sure "less confusing" is the proper paradigm here, but I would
most definitely change things so that the property inspector is less
erratic. It's a pain having the size change all the time, it's a pain
having the focus shift from an object you thought you were editing to
the stack, it's a pain having the topic shift from text properties to
general properties when you miss clicking on an object and then stay
that way when you click on it correctly, etc.

...although if the IDE were more like MSVC's or xcode's it *would* be
less confusing, IMO.

--
-Mark Wieder
 [hidden email]

_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftware@gmail.com
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

Judy Perry
In reply to this post by Dan Shafer
A fair amount of current literature on learning programming indicates that
novice programmers do indeed benefit tremendously from having access to
fully-operational code snippets.

They are the coding equivalents of physical manipulatives that fill ed lit
on learning in general.

So, if we're freaks, there are an awful lot of us.

Judy

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Dan Shafer wrote:

> On Jul 25, 2005, at 11:47 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>
> > But if we could teach the art of dissection, the people could learn
> > from existing code without need as much explanation.
> >
> > Am I dreaming?
> >
> > I learned so much dissecting HyperCard and SuperCard examples,
> >
> I don't think you're a freak. But I think: (a) probably not many
> people learn this way, at least in the early going; and (b) this is a
> difficult skill to teach, perhaps more difficult than programming.

_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Another Doc Thought

Chipp Walters
In reply to this post by MisterX
LOL, Truer words were never spoke

MisterX wrote:

> The typical cycle in a rev programmer's life is
>
> woah!
> hummmmm
> maillist - it just doesn't work!
> maillist - it's crap
> maillist - aaah
> woah, it works!
> cool my first program*
> maillist - it stopped working, im lost
> maillist - aaah!
> cool my first cool program
> maillist - where's the 3d stuff everyone has (or color cursors, or normal
> html rendering, etc...)
> maillist - rant where is it?
> maillist - darn... hurry up rev...
> cool, i managed to interpret it in xtalk
> maillist - my new cooler than cool program
> maillist - thanks thanks
> maillist - oops, a mistake slipped in!
> (GOTO "cool, my second program")* -- and third, and so on...
> just have to abide to the cycle

_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution