App Browser versus Project Browser

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App Browser versus Project Browser

Richmond Mathewson-2
Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503

So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.

R.

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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Mark Waddingham-2
On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>
> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your
> opinion.

If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who
said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for years)
;)

To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to
gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the
Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little
'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose
- so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is
good and bad about both and is it possible to design something which
everybody would be happy with?

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ [hidden email] ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Richmond Mathewson-2
On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:

> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>
>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>
>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>
> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who
> said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for
> years) ;)

And Jacque Landman Gay.

>
> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to
> gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the
> Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little
> 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same
> purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it
> that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something
> which everybody would be happy with?

I wonder what the design team in Edinburgh feel is intrinsically wrong
with the App Browser.
>
> Warmest Regards,

Umm . . . feeling a bit hot round the collar.

>
> Mark.
>

R.


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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:

> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>
>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>
>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>
> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who
> said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for
> years) ;)
>

Well, I may not know much, but I do know that 'people' is a collective
noun, so, had I just meant myself I would have used 'person'.

> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to
> gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the
> Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little
> 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same
> purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it
> that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something
> which everybody would be happy with?
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>

R.

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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Mark Waddingham-2
Indeed - but I don't think your tone of phrase was using it in that exact manner? ;)

By the way, I'm smiling here - it is a useful conversation to have if it is constructive. Either app browser bashing or project browser bashing isn't particularly useful to my mind.

What is useful is getting the information about what the best approach is to the problem - which is all I was trying to promote :)

Sent from my iPhone

> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:34, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>>
>>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>>
>> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for years) ;)
>
> Well, I may not know much, but I do know that 'people' is a collective noun, so, had I just meant myself I would have used 'person'.
>
>> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would be happy with?
>>
>> Warmest Regards,
>>
>> Mark.
>
> R.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Mark Waddingham-2
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
Seriously, no need to feel hot about the collar :)

There are definitely people who do not like the project browser - that is clear.

I'd also suggest that there are people who don't like the application browser.

So - let us assume that it costs a good deal of time to maintain both and thus having one such thing would be preferable...

Is there a compromise in design which can be come to that satisfies most?

Sent from my iPhone

> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:31, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>>
>>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>>
>> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for years) ;)
>
> And Jacque Landman Gay.
>
>>
>> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would be happy with?
>
> I wonder what the design team in Edinburgh feel is intrinsically wrong with the App Browser.
>>
>> Warmest Regards,
>
> Umm . . . feeling a bit hot round the collar.
>
>>
>> Mark.
>
> R.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
On 07/10/15 21:40, Mark Waddingham wrote:
> Indeed - but I don't think your tone of phrase was using it in that exact manner? ;)
>
> By the way, I'm smiling here - it is a useful conversation to have if it is constructive. Either app browser bashing or project browser bashing isn't particularly useful to my mind.

I'm not Project Browser bashing as such.

I was very surprised when the Project Browser arrived, and played with
it quite a bit, but reverted to the App Browser as could not
see any obvious advantages.

As both Browsers are present in current LiveCode 8 builds I don't
actually see anything wrong with retaining both of them.

The fact that the menu system in the revMenuBar stack does NOT allow
access to the App Browser does give out a signal which
is fairly blatant that the App Browser is not going to be with us much
longer:

it was this that precipitated my small hack to allow access to the App
Browser.

R.

>
> What is useful is getting the information about what the best approach is to the problem - which is all I was trying to promote :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:34, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>>> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>>>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>>>
>>>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>>>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>>>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>>> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for years) ;)
>> Well, I may not know much, but I do know that 'people' is a collective noun, so, had I just meant myself I would have used 'person'.
>>
>>> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would be happy with?
>>>
>>> Warmest Regards,
>>>
>>> Mark.
>> R.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

xtalkprogrammer
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
What about making a poll?

Mark Schonewille
http://economy-x-talk.com

Buy the most extensive book on the
LiveCode language:
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com

Op 10/7/2015 om 20:43 schreef Mark Waddingham:

> Seriously, no need to feel hot about the collar :)
>
> There are definitely people who do not like the project browser - that is clear.
>
> I'd also suggest that there are people who don't like the application browser.
>
> So - let us assume that it costs a good deal of time to maintain both and thus having one such thing would be preferable...
>
> Is there a compromise in design which can be come to that satisfies most?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:31, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>>> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>>>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>>>
>>>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>>>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>>>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>>> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for years) ;)
>> And Jacque Landman Gay.
>>
>>> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would be happy with?
>> I wonder what the design team in Edinburgh feel is intrinsically wrong with the App Browser.
>>> Warmest Regards,
>> Umm . . . feeling a bit hot round the collar.
>>
>>> Mark.
>> R.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Kind regards,

Drs. Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consultancy and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Mark Waddingham-2
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
So if we had deleted the app browser stack from the build, would your point of view have changed and would you have started to use the project browser? ;)

Sent from my iPhone

> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:46, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 07/10/15 21:40, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>> Indeed - but I don't think your tone of phrase was using it in that exact manner? ;)
>>
>> By the way, I'm smiling here - it is a useful conversation to have if it is constructive. Either app browser bashing or project browser bashing isn't particularly useful to my mind.
>
> I'm not Project Browser bashing as such.
>
> I was very surprised when the Project Browser arrived, and played with it quite a bit, but reverted to the App Browser as could not
> see any obvious advantages.
>
> As both Browsers are present in current LiveCode 8 builds I don't actually see anything wrong with retaining both of them.
>
> The fact that the menu system in the revMenuBar stack does NOT allow access to the App Browser does give out a signal which
> is fairly blatant that the App Browser is not going to be with us much longer:
>
> it was this that precipitated my small hack to allow access to the App Browser.
>
> R.
>
>>
>> What is useful is getting the information about what the best approach is to the problem - which is all I was trying to promote :)
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:34, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>>>>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>>>>
>>>>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>>>>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>>>>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>>>> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for years) ;)
>>> Well, I may not know much, but I do know that 'people' is a collective noun, so, had I just meant myself I would have used 'person'.
>>>
>>>> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would be happy with?
>>>>
>>>> Warmest Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Mark.
>>> R.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
On 07/10/15 21:43, Mark Waddingham wrote:
> Seriously, no need to feel hot about the collar :)
>
> There are definitely people who do not like the project browser - that is clear.
>
> I'd also suggest that there are people who don't like the application browser.
>
> So - let us assume that it costs a good deal of time to maintain both and thus having one such thing would be preferable...
>
> Is there a compromise in design which can be come to that satisfies most?

Have you ever seen a compromise that satisfies most people?

Well, all I can suggest is that LiveCode produces a hybrid [ chimæ ra ??? ]
and see what the response is . . .

R.

> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:31, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>>> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>>>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>>>
>>>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>>>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>>>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>>> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for years) ;)
>> And Jacque Landman Gay.
>>
>>> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would be happy with?
>> I wonder what the design team in Edinburgh feel is intrinsically wrong with the App Browser.
>>> Warmest Regards,
>> Umm . . . feeling a bit hot round the collar.
>>
>>> Mark.
>> R.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by xtalkprogrammer
On 07/10/15 21:54, Mark Schonewille wrote:
> What about making a poll?

+1

Richmond.

>
> Mark Schonewille
> http://economy-x-talk.com
>
> Buy the most extensive book on the
> LiveCode language:
> http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com
>
> Op 10/7/2015 om 20:43 schreef Mark Waddingham:
>> Seriously, no need to feel hot about the collar :)
>>
>> There are definitely people who do not like the project browser -
>> that is clear.
>>
>> I'd also suggest that there are people who don't like the application
>> browser.
>>
>> So - let us assume that it costs a good deal of time to maintain both
>> and thus having one such thing would be preferable...
>>
>> Is there a compromise in design which can be come to that satisfies
>> most?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:31, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>>>>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over
>>>>> here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>>>>
>>>>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>>>>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>>>>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your
>>>>> opinion.
>>>> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another
>>>> who said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't
>>>> for years) ;)
>>> And Jacque Landman Gay.
>>>
>>>> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to
>>>> gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both
>>>> the Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a
>>>> little 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the
>>>> same purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what
>>>> is it that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design
>>>> something which everybody would be happy with?
>>> I wonder what the design team in Edinburgh feel is intrinsically
>>> wrong with the App Browser.
>>>> Warmest Regards,
>>> Umm . . . feeling a bit hot round the collar.
>>>
>>>> Mark.
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

xtalkprogrammer
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
That is a strange question: if we take away something you like, would
you use the one and only thing that's left?

I think you need to be a little careful with that. While some people
might use whatever tool is available, some other people will decide to
use a different tool (like me), but yet again some other people might
decide to switch to an entirely different programming environment.

--
Mark Schonewille
http://economy-x-talk.com

Buy the most extensive book on the
LiveCode language:
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com

Op 10/7/2015 om 20:54 schreef Mark Waddingham:

> So if we had deleted the app browser stack from the build, would your point of view have changed and would you have started to use the project browser? ;)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:46, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/10/15 21:40, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>> Indeed - but I don't think your tone of phrase was using it in that exact manner? ;)
>>>
>>> By the way, I'm smiling here - it is a useful conversation to have if it is constructive. Either app browser bashing or project browser bashing isn't particularly useful to my mind.
>> I'm not Project Browser bashing as such.
>>
>> I was very surprised when the Project Browser arrived, and played with it quite a bit, but reverted to the App Browser as could not
>> see any obvious advantages.
>>
>> As both Browsers are present in current LiveCode 8 builds I don't actually see anything wrong with retaining both of them.
>>
>> The fact that the menu system in the revMenuBar stack does NOT allow access to the App Browser does give out a signal which
>> is fairly blatant that the App Browser is not going to be with us much longer:
>>
>> it was this that precipitated my small hack to allow access to the App Browser.
>>
>> R.
>>
>>> What is useful is getting the information about what the best approach is to the problem - which is all I was trying to promote :)
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>>> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:34, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>>>>>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>>>>>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>>>>>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>>>>> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for years) ;)
>>>> Well, I may not know much, but I do know that 'people' is a collective noun, so, had I just meant myself I would have used 'person'.
>>>>
>>>>> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would be happy with?
>>>>>
>>>>> Warmest Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark.
>>>> R.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Mark Waddingham-2
In reply to this post by xtalkprogrammer
As an indication of community division it might be useful - app browser/project browser/indifferent.

However, I'm not sure a poll would give us the information we need as it is too binary.

It's not about preference as such it's about having a component which serves everyone's needs.

The reality is that the app browser is old code wise and doesn't sit on the new abstractions we are building to make the components in the IDE more robust and easier to adapt and evolve.

We could certainly look at rewriting it on top of those abstractions - however, it seems sensible to find out if there is some sort of AppProjBrowser we could build first before considering such an undertaking.

Mark

Sent from my iPhone

> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:54, Mark Schonewille <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What about making a poll?
>
> Mark Schonewille
> http://economy-x-talk.com
>
> Buy the most extensive book on the
> LiveCode language:
> http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com
>
> Op 10/7/2015 om 20:43 schreef Mark Waddingham:
>> Seriously, no need to feel hot about the collar :)
>>
>> There are definitely people who do not like the project browser - that is clear.
>>
>> I'd also suggest that there are people who don't like the application browser.
>>
>> So - let us assume that it costs a good deal of time to maintain both and thus having one such thing would be preferable...
>>
>> Is there a compromise in design which can be come to that satisfies most?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:31, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>>>>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>>>>
>>>>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>>>>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>>>>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>>>> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for years) ;)
>>> And Jacque Landman Gay.
>>>
>>>> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would be happy with?
>>> I wonder what the design team in Edinburgh feel is intrinsically wrong with the App Browser.
>>>> Warmest Regards,
>>> Umm . . . feeling a bit hot round the collar.
>>>
>>>> Mark.
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
On 07/10/15 21:54, Mark Waddingham wrote:
> So if we had deleted the app browser stack from the build, would your point of view have changed and would you have started to use the project browser? ;)

When I finally got to look at a LiveCode 8 build after a week's hiatus
with various computer problems,
as the App Browser  was not accessible from the menus my first reaction
was to try to export the
App Browser from LiveCode 7.1 and port it over to LiveCode 8.

While I'm on a roll, I could also point out that I cannot see any
obvious advantages in the complete
remake of the Preference Palette in LiveCode 8.

To contextualise things: I remember the major interface overhaul that
took place via RR/LC 2.6 to 3.0,
and the 'new' preference palette was vastly better than the previous
one, as was the whole IDE.

Richmond.

>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:46, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/10/15 21:40, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>> Indeed - but I don't think your tone of phrase was using it in that exact manner? ;)
>>>
>>> By the way, I'm smiling here - it is a useful conversation to have if it is constructive. Either app browser bashing or project browser bashing isn't particularly useful to my mind.
>> I'm not Project Browser bashing as such.
>>
>> I was very surprised when the Project Browser arrived, and played with it quite a bit, but reverted to the App Browser as could not
>> see any obvious advantages.
>>
>> As both Browsers are present in current LiveCode 8 builds I don't actually see anything wrong with retaining both of them.
>>
>> The fact that the menu system in the revMenuBar stack does NOT allow access to the App Browser does give out a signal which
>> is fairly blatant that the App Browser is not going to be with us much longer:
>>
>> it was this that precipitated my small hack to allow access to the App Browser.
>>
>> R.
>>
>>> What is useful is getting the information about what the best approach is to the problem - which is all I was trying to promote :)
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>>> On 7 Oct 2015, at 19:34, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07/10/15 21:22, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-10-07 20:08, Richmond wrote:
>>>>>> Well, it seems that the "people" are speaking with one voice over here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25503
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, as an experiment in participatory democracy, and whether
>>>>>> RunRev/LiveCode REALLY listen
>>>>>> to their installed customer base, Please go there and give your opinion.
>>>>> If by the 'people' you mean yourself, one other person and another who said he doesn't even use the application browser (and hasn't for years) ;)
>>>> Well, I may not know much, but I do know that 'people' is a collective noun, so, had I just meant myself I would have used 'person'.
>>>>
>>>>> To be fair, whilst preference *might* be an interesting thing to gauge... Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would be happy with?
>>>>>
>>>>> Warmest Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark.
>>>> R.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
On 10/7/2015 1:22 PM, Mark Waddingham wrote:
> Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project
> Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to
> maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's
> idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad
> about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would
> be happy with?

The issues would probably become clear if you open, say, 10 large
stacks, each with 50 cards or more, containing dozens of controls per
card. Since my primary project for the last 2 years uses that setup, I
haven't been able to use the Project Browser because it isn't practical.

1. The hierarchical organization of the App Browser (AB) is
indispensable and is the main reason I stay with it. I can see at a
glance how to drill down to the single object I am looking for and how
objects are organized on each card by group and layer order. It is by
far the fastest way to understand how a set of stacks is internally
structured. The long, scrolling list in the Project Browser (PB) can't
display the structure as clearly because it is all linear. Multiple
cards with many objects will run off the top and bottom of the PB window
and you can't see the overall organization.

2. It is difficult in the PB to quickly find a specific object. If you
want to know the name of an object on some other card, you have to
collapse the current card, scroll through 50 cards to find the one
you're looking for (and if you didn't collapse those already, the
scrolling is interminable,) expand it, scroll through the objects to
find the one you want (note the name because it's going to be a long
trip to find it again,) collapse that card, scroll (forever) again to
find the card you started with, expand it, find the original object
again, and continue. In AB, I can just look at the left-hand pane and
see the name of the target card, click it, note the name of the object,
then click back where I was. If the AB is sized tall enough to hold 50
lines of text, I don't have to do much scrolling at all. If I do need to
scroll, it's minimal because at least 25-30 cards are always visible at
once.

2. In the AB I can click on any header to view the organization in many
ways, and I have a choice of which columns I want to display. If I want
to work only with images, or fields, I can bunch them together in the
list by type and they are quickly accessible while still allowing me to
see the other objects on the card. I frequently require info on layering
order, one click and I have that. I use the ID column extensively. In PB
I have to type in a filter string to isolate by object type, and then I
can no longer see any other objects, so if I need some other info I have
to remove the filter, find what I want, then reinstate the original
filter. PB does not offer a way to identify an object ID at all, as far
as I can see, and I need that all the time. (But you could turn off
those distracting ID tooltips for sure.)

3. Visually, the PB is too cluttered to be quickly scanned. The
checkmarks in the AB are more useful. In the AB is very easy to see, for
example, which objects are invisible by simply looking for "gaps" in the
checkmark column. In the PB I have to examine each object individually
because the visual difference between the enabled and disabled "eye"
image is not distinct enough, and even if it were, there's that
scrolling issue again to see all the objects. Also, there is no single
column to scan -- the lock icon is interspersed so you have to mentally
learn to skip over every other icon.

4. I have turned off thumbnails in the PB because with hundreds of
objects or more, the time required for it to constantly update is (or at
least, was) unacceptable. Even without thumbnails, it performs much
slower than the AB. There is also the issue of visual clutter (see
below) which is main reason I turned off thumbnails on day one.
Thumbnails also double the amount of scrolling you have to do to find
things.

5. In the PB there is no clear delineation between cards and substacks.
Both are left-aligned at the same visual depth. In the AB, all stacks
are in the left pane, with substacks indented under their mainstack.
Also, in the PB, the stack you are inspecting scrolls off the top of the
window, so you are never sure which stack owns the cards that are
currently displayed. This is a big issue in my project, because all the
stacks are clones of each other and cards have the same names (usually
just IDs.) In the AB I can immediately see which stack owns the card
because the card is highlighted in the left-pane list under its
easily-viewable owner. Even if I have to scroll to see the stack name,
the card I'm working with remains selected and its objects remain visible.

6. The icons at the bottom of the PB are so tiny on my screen that they
are difficult to recognize (and my eyesight isn't great anyway.) I have
to use the tooltips. That takes too long, so I just open the property
inspector or use the menu items instead. I suppose with some use I'd
memorize what each icon does, but the other issues have prevented me
from becoming familiar enough with it.

That's just what I remember from the few days I tried to work with it.
I'm not convinced that the current design can accomodate my work style
unless it can at least be revised to show a columnar view rather than a
linear one. What I would have preferred is an update for the few
glitches in the AB (mainly it doesn't always refresh automatically, and
those blinking tooltips are positively aggressive) and give it a new
coat of paint if you think it looks too dated. Its plain text layout
with clear checkmarks is much easier for me to work with. I do like how
you can change layering order by dragging in the PB, that would be a
nice addition to the AB.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Mark Talluto

> On Oct 7, 2015, at 12:58 PM, J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> That's just what I remember from the few days I tried to work with it. I'm not convinced that the current design can accomodate my work style unless it can at least be revised to show a columnar view rather than a linear one. What I would have preferred is an update for the few glitches in the AB (mainly it doesn't always refresh automatically, and those blinking tooltips are positively aggressive) and give it a new coat of paint if you think it looks too dated. Its plain text layout with clear checkmarks is much easier for me to work with. I do like how you can change layering order by dragging in the PB, that would be a nice addition to the AB.

Have you tried Geoff Canyon’s revNavigator? It is the smallest and cleanest solution yet. You get the best of both the AppBrowser and the ProjectBrowser in one package. We design some pretty complex apps over here. I like the fact that you can focus on a single card at a time. Filter brings you down to all the controls of the same kind, or the exact control you are looking for. Edit scripts, properties, and other useful functionality with keyboard and clicks that you can define. Drag and drop controls to reorder their layers. Support a dark background or not, which is something I prefer.


Best regards,

Mark Talluto
canelasoftware.com
CassiaDB: The rapid development, free local storage database, made for LiveCode developers: livecloud.io






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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
I remembered another issue that prevents me from using the PB: there is
no card number visible. This is actually a big deal for me. My stacks do
not have named cards, they are all IDs. In the AB I can see the card
number which is also displayed in my stack or, sometimes, in the
titlebar. That's how I locate cards, it's quick to spot a card number in
the AB. The PB doesn't show card numbers at all, so there is no way to
find a card without physically counting from the top in the collapsed list.

On 10/7/2015 2:58 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 10/7/2015 1:22 PM, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>> Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project
>> Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to
>> maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's
>> idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad
>> about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would
>> be happy with?
>
> The issues would probably become clear if you open, say, 10 large
> stacks, each with 50 cards or more, containing dozens of controls per
> card. Since my primary project for the last 2 years uses that setup, I
> haven't been able to use the Project Browser because it isn't practical.
>
> 1. The hierarchical organization of the App Browser (AB) is
> indispensable and is the main reason I stay with it. I can see at a
> glance how to drill down to the single object I am looking for and how
> objects are organized on each card by group and layer order. It is by
> far the fastest way to understand how a set of stacks is internally
> structured. The long, scrolling list in the Project Browser (PB) can't
> display the structure as clearly because it is all linear. Multiple
> cards with many objects will run off the top and bottom of the PB window
> and you can't see the overall organization.
>
> 2. It is difficult in the PB to quickly find a specific object. If you
> want to know the name of an object on some other card, you have to
> collapse the current card, scroll through 50 cards to find the one
> you're looking for (and if you didn't collapse those already, the
> scrolling is interminable,) expand it, scroll through the objects to
> find the one you want (note the name because it's going to be a long
> trip to find it again,) collapse that card, scroll (forever) again to
> find the card you started with, expand it, find the original object
> again, and continue. In AB, I can just look at the left-hand pane and
> see the name of the target card, click it, note the name of the object,
> then click back where I was. If the AB is sized tall enough to hold 50
> lines of text, I don't have to do much scrolling at all. If I do need to
> scroll, it's minimal because at least 25-30 cards are always visible at
> once.
>
> 2. In the AB I can click on any header to view the organization in many
> ways, and I have a choice of which columns I want to display. If I want
> to work only with images, or fields, I can bunch them together in the
> list by type and they are quickly accessible while still allowing me to
> see the other objects on the card. I frequently require info on layering
> order, one click and I have that. I use the ID column extensively. In PB
> I have to type in a filter string to isolate by object type, and then I
> can no longer see any other objects, so if I need some other info I have
> to remove the filter, find what I want, then reinstate the original
> filter. PB does not offer a way to identify an object ID at all, as far
> as I can see, and I need that all the time. (But you could turn off
> those distracting ID tooltips for sure.)
>
> 3. Visually, the PB is too cluttered to be quickly scanned. The
> checkmarks in the AB are more useful. In the AB is very easy to see, for
> example, which objects are invisible by simply looking for "gaps" in the
> checkmark column. In the PB I have to examine each object individually
> because the visual difference between the enabled and disabled "eye"
> image is not distinct enough, and even if it were, there's that
> scrolling issue again to see all the objects. Also, there is no single
> column to scan -- the lock icon is interspersed so you have to mentally
> learn to skip over every other icon.
>
> 4. I have turned off thumbnails in the PB because with hundreds of
> objects or more, the time required for it to constantly update is (or at
> least, was) unacceptable. Even without thumbnails, it performs much
> slower than the AB. There is also the issue of visual clutter (see
> below) which is main reason I turned off thumbnails on day one.
> Thumbnails also double the amount of scrolling you have to do to find
> things.
>
> 5. In the PB there is no clear delineation between cards and substacks.
> Both are left-aligned at the same visual depth. In the AB, all stacks
> are in the left pane, with substacks indented under their mainstack.
> Also, in the PB, the stack you are inspecting scrolls off the top of the
> window, so you are never sure which stack owns the cards that are
> currently displayed. This is a big issue in my project, because all the
> stacks are clones of each other and cards have the same names (usually
> just IDs.) In the AB I can immediately see which stack owns the card
> because the card is highlighted in the left-pane list under its
> easily-viewable owner. Even if I have to scroll to see the stack name,
> the card I'm working with remains selected and its objects remain visible.
>
> 6. The icons at the bottom of the PB are so tiny on my screen that they
> are difficult to recognize (and my eyesight isn't great anyway.) I have
> to use the tooltips. That takes too long, so I just open the property
> inspector or use the menu items instead. I suppose with some use I'd
> memorize what each icon does, but the other issues have prevented me
> from becoming familiar enough with it.
>
> That's just what I remember from the few days I tried to work with it.
> I'm not convinced that the current design can accomodate my work style
> unless it can at least be revised to show a columnar view rather than a
> linear one. What I would have preferred is an update for the few
> glitches in the AB (mainly it doesn't always refresh automatically, and
> those blinking tooltips are positively aggressive) and give it a new
> coat of paint if you think it looks too dated. Its plain text layout
> with clear checkmarks is much easier for me to work with. I do like how
> you can change layering order by dragging in the PB, that would be a
> nice addition to the AB.
>


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by Mark Talluto
On 10/7/2015 3:31 PM, Mark Talluto wrote:

>
>> On Oct 7, 2015, at 12:58 PM, J. Landman Gay
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> That's just what I remember from the few days I tried to work with
>> it. I'm not convinced that the current design can accomodate my
>> work style unless it can at least be revised to show a columnar
>> view rather than a linear one. What I would have preferred is an
>> update for the few glitches in the AB (mainly it doesn't always
>> refresh automatically, and those blinking tooltips are positively
>> aggressive) and give it a new coat of paint if you think it looks
>> too dated. Its plain text layout with clear checkmarks is much
>> easier for me to work with. I do like how you can change layering
>> order by dragging in the PB, that would be a nice addition to the
>> AB.
>
> Have you tried Geoff Canyon’s revNavigator? It is the smallest and
> cleanest solution yet. You get the best of both the AppBrowser and
> the ProjectBrowser in one package. We design some pretty complex apps
> over here. I like the fact that you can focus on a single card at a
> time. Filter brings you down to all the controls of the same kind, or
> the exact control you are looking for. Edit scripts, properties, and
> other useful functionality with keyboard and clicks that you can
> define. Drag and drop controls to reorder their layers. Support a
> dark background or not, which is something I prefer.

I'm embarrassed to say I haven't. I looked at it a couple of times, but
the docs require some memorization and I didn't pursue it. If the docs
could be separated out into a separate window for reference I might have
an easier time learning it. It does look powerful and I've heard only
good reports about it.

If LC 8 really does eliminate the app browser, I'll probably move to
Navigator. The client who owns this big project tried to use PB for a
while and also dropped it quickly. She liked it at first because of the
thumbnails and draggable layering but ran into all the other limitations
soon after and dropped it in favor of the app browser. Her problems with
the PB were pretty much identical to mine.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser

Paul_Hibbert
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
I am one of the people that generally prefers the Application Browser to the Project Browser, but to be fair I don’t think I gave the PB enough attention to see any of it’s merits.

Now that I’ve used the PB a little more in LC8 I have been able to get a slightly better feel for it, so I thought it may be useful to list what I like and don’t like, this what I came up with:

What I do like about the Application Browser:
1. Column views, having a separate window to list all controls on the selected card makes it easy to locate the control you want to work with especially if it isn’t currently visible on the card that’s open.
2. Being able to sort the list by different columns. Really useful for long lists of controls, great for grouping control info.
3. Control IDs and Layer numbers are immediately visible.
3. The Refresh button.

What I don’t like about the Application Browser:
1. The column sizes don’t save between sessions, so I find I’m always resizing them!
2. No filters, but column sort helps.

What I do like about the Project Browser:
1. Takes up less screen space than the Application Browser.
2. Having options that do stick between session.
3. Some useful options available under the contextual menu, (like Send Message).

What I don’t like about the Project Browser:
1. No easy way to change the sort order (I know it’s in the LC Prefs, but that’s too slow to get to).
2. No filter in LC8 - it is there in LC7.
3. No control IDs or layer numbers visible.
4. No easy way to refresh.

What I would like to see in the Project Browser:
1. Reinstate the filter, preferably with more options like show/hide by control type.
2. To be able to temporarily hide stacks/cards/controls from the PB, (to enable a more focused view), not just collapsing them in the tree view. e.g. Hiding controls that are hidden on a card, removing library stacks etc. from the PB view.
3. A Refresh button/option to avoid closing and re-opening the PB.
4. Control IDs and Layer numbers should be visible, maybe with a preference setting for people that don’t want to see them.
5. The ability to rename controls would be useful.
6. The option to switch between column view and tree view, this would save having two different viewers and keep more people happy!

Interestingly every time I open LC8 (dp7) the Application Browser opens, maybe it’s because I closed LC7 with the AB still open(?), but as soon as I close it I can’t get it back.

I have tried a 3rd party browser, but this discussion is about the native LC options.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Paul
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Re: App Browser versus Project Browser (features)

Paul Dupuis
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
On 10/7/2015 3:58 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 10/7/2015 1:22 PM, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>> Far more useful would be constructive criticism of both the Project
>> Browser and the Application Browser. It does seem a little 'silly' to
>> maintain two things which serve essentially the same purpose - so Ali's
>> idea is perhaps the best way forward - what is it that is good and bad
>> about both and is it possible to design something which everybody would
>> be happy with?
>
> The issues would probably become clear if you open, say, 10 large
> stacks, each with 50 cards or more, containing dozens of controls per
> card. Since my primary project for the last 2 years uses that setup, I
> haven't been able to use the Project Browser because it isn't practical.
>
> 1. The hierarchical organization of the App Browser (AB) is
> indispensable and is the main reason I stay with it. I can see at a
> glance how to drill down to the single object I am looking for and how
> objects are organized on each card by group and layer order. It is by
> far the fastest way to understand how a set of stacks is internally
> structured. The long, scrolling list in the Project Browser (PB) can't
> display the structure as clearly because it is all linear. Multiple
> cards with many objects will run off the top and bottom of the PB
> window and you can't see the overall organization.

This is getting at what Mark asked for - what features specifically do
people use or don't use and why.

I actually like the hierarchical model of the PB (in LC 7.0.6) over the
AB for small projects, but I agree with Jacque that for large projects
the scrolling list of objects on a card in AB is superior for
navigation. Possibly if the PB provided Zoom In/Zoom Out so you could
focus just on one card's objects and the scroll would be limited to that
list until you Zoomed out. Some collapse All/Expand All and Collapse
Selected/Expand Selected buttons or options would be helpful. I also
miss the layer number column that the AB has in the PB, but generally I
do prefer the hierarchical navigation of PB (except for cards with a LOT
of objects not structured in groups)


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