Apple's 30%--anyway around it?

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Apple's 30%--anyway around it?

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
I used to create apps and ebooks years and years ago for PDAs.  The only reason that I closed my business was Apple.  Let me explain.  I would contract with authors of books to publish an electronic version of their book. This was a new thing back then.  I also had a website where I sold the apps and eBooks.  I would get about 15% of the sale of every copy of books that I was publishing for Palm's and Pocket PC's.

Then came the iPhone and Apple's app store.  They charged 30% for the sale of everything.  I was not making that much and I was the creator of the apps and the publisher of the eBooks.  I could not make it with those amounts.  There was a way around this that I could see for the eBooks.  

SkyScape was a publisher of medical eBooks while mine were for veterinarians.  They provided a free app.  The customer would purchase eBooks on SkyScape's website. The customer would install the app on their device through Apple's AppStore and then either on their computer or their iPhone, they could go to SkyScape.com and purchase a book. Within the app, they had instructions for how to download their purchase. There was then a registration number depending on the device's IMEI(??) number or something that was specific to that customer.

SkyScape did not have to pay Apple the 30%. They were selling the eBooks outside of the Apple environment. I could have had a great business and it would have continued to this day.  I spent a LOT of time and money developing a similar app.  It was great.  It was primarily an eBook reader but there were other functions in the app as well.  It could read .txt, ePub, .pdf, HTML, and maybe others, I don't remember.  The steps for purchasing, installing and registering eBooks was similar to what SkyScape had done.

No matter how many changes I made, Apple kept refusing the app because I was selling the eBooks outside of their AppStore.

SkyScape's business continues. Mine, I closed.  Our businesses were not competitors.  I even sold a few of their products through my website. I would buy a certain number at a discount and sell them at the regular price to the customer.

I never could figure out how to get around whatever it was that made Apple not accept my free app on the AppStore and yet a similar product they are allowing to this day.

I need help in figuring this out.  I have found LiveCode that I can use for development of apps on the different platforms.  I don't have to learn Xcode again.  But, I need to try to decide what to start developing.

Any suggestions?

If you want to see the process, if I have not explained it well enough, download the SkyScape app for Android or iOS to your device (I have not done it recently).  There should be some free eBooks to install either through the app or on their website.  This may give you an idea.

Linda
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Re: Apple's 30%--anyway around it?

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
First you develop a business selling ebooks that does not utilize the AppStore.

You sell online and the ebooks are useable on macOS, Windows, Android, web browser.

Once that is fully functional, you add yet another reader, one for iOS. People who have already purchased content via some other mechanism, can view that content on iOS.

Selling content outside the AppStore via your iOS app raises all sorts of red flags.

Kee Nethery


On Jul 16, 2018, at 6:27 AM, Linda Miller, DVM via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I used to create apps and ebooks years and years ago for PDAs.  The only reason that I closed my business was Apple.  Let me explain.  I would contract with authors of books to publish an electronic version of their book. This was a new thing back then.  I also had a website where I sold the apps and eBooks.  I would get about 15% of the sale of every copy of books that I was publishing for Palm's and Pocket PC's.
>
> Then came the iPhone and Apple's app store.  They charged 30% for the sale of everything.  I was not making that much and I was the creator of the apps and the publisher of the eBooks.  I could not make it with those amounts.  There was a way around this that I could see for the eBooks.  
>
> SkyScape was a publisher of medical eBooks while mine were for veterinarians.  They provided a free app.  The customer would purchase eBooks on SkyScape's website. The customer would install the app on their device through Apple's AppStore and then either on their computer or their iPhone, they could go to SkyScape.com and purchase a book. Within the app, they had instructions for how to download their purchase. There was then a registration number depending on the device's IMEI(??) number or something that was specific to that customer.
>
> SkyScape did not have to pay Apple the 30%. They were selling the eBooks outside of the Apple environment. I could have had a great business and it would have continued to this day.  I spent a LOT of time and money developing a similar app.  It was great.  It was primarily an eBook reader but there were other functions in the app as well.  It could read .txt, ePub, .pdf, HTML, and maybe others, I don't remember.  The steps for purchasing, installing and registering eBooks was similar to what SkyScape had done.
>
> No matter how many changes I made, Apple kept refusing the app because I was selling the eBooks outside of their AppStore.
>
> SkyScape's business continues. Mine, I closed.  Our businesses were not competitors.  I even sold a few of their products through my website. I would buy a certain number at a discount and sell them at the regular price to the customer.
>
> I never could figure out how to get around whatever it was that made Apple not accept my free app on the AppStore and yet a similar product they are allowing to this day.
>
> I need help in figuring this out.  I have found LiveCode that I can use for development of apps on the different platforms.  I don't have to learn Xcode again.  But, I need to try to decide what to start developing.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> If you want to see the process, if I have not explained it well enough, download the SkyScape app for Android or iOS to your device (I have not done it recently).  There should be some free eBooks to install either through the app or on their website.  This may give you an idea.
>
> Linda
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Apple's 30%--anyway around it?

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Clarence Martin via use-livecode
The Steam gaming service was rejected for the same reason, but Apple
recently changed their policy to allow purchases done from a browser to
be downloaded via an iOS app.

<https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/5/17430532/apple-app-store-rules-valve-steam-link-game-streaming>

I don't know if this would apply to your app but if you search for
"Steam app iOS rejection" you might find more info.

On 7/16/18 8:27 AM, Linda Miller, DVM via use-livecode wrote:

> I used to create apps and ebooks years and years ago for PDAs.  The only reason that I closed my business was Apple.  Let me explain.  I would contract with authors of books to publish an electronic version of their book. This was a new thing back then.  I also had a website where I sold the apps and eBooks.  I would get about 15% of the sale of every copy of books that I was publishing for Palm's and Pocket PC's.
>
> Then came the iPhone and Apple's app store.  They charged 30% for the sale of everything.  I was not making that much and I was the creator of the apps and the publisher of the eBooks.  I could not make it with those amounts.  There was a way around this that I could see for the eBooks.
>
> SkyScape was a publisher of medical eBooks while mine were for veterinarians.  They provided a free app.  The customer would purchase eBooks on SkyScape's website. The customer would install the app on their device through Apple's AppStore and then either on their computer or their iPhone, they could go to SkyScape.com and purchase a book. Within the app, they had instructions for how to download their purchase. There was then a registration number depending on the device's IMEI(??) number or something that was specific to that customer.
>
> SkyScape did not have to pay Apple the 30%. They were selling the eBooks outside of the Apple environment. I could have had a great business and it would have continued to this day.  I spent a LOT of time and money developing a similar app.  It was great.  It was primarily an eBook reader but there were other functions in the app as well.  It could read .txt, ePub, .pdf, HTML, and maybe others, I don't remember.  The steps for purchasing, installing and registering eBooks was similar to what SkyScape had done.
>
> No matter how many changes I made, Apple kept refusing the app because I was selling the eBooks outside of their AppStore.
>
> SkyScape's business continues. Mine, I closed.  Our businesses were not competitors.  I even sold a few of their products through my website. I would buy a certain number at a discount and sell them at the regular price to the customer.
>
> I never could figure out how to get around whatever it was that made Apple not accept my free app on the AppStore and yet a similar product they are allowing to this day.
>
> I need help in figuring this out.  I have found LiveCode that I can use for development of apps on the different platforms.  I don't have to learn Xcode again.  But, I need to try to decide what to start developing.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> If you want to see the process, if I have not explained it well enough, download the SkyScape app for Android or iOS to your device (I have not done it recently).  There should be some free eBooks to install either through the app or on their website.  This may give you an idea.
>
> Linda
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


--
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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Apple's 30%--anyway around it?

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Clarence Martin via use-livecode
>First you develop a business selling ebooks that does not utilize the AppStore.
>You sell online and the ebooks are useable on macOS, Windows, Android, web browser.

Your proposal sounds as if I should spend many years developing a company and selling products for platforms that I am not really interested in (Windows and Mac OS)...and then and only then offer an iOS version. Why? Why not just iOS and Android?

I did have a thriving business for about 10 years.  The eBooks and apps were first for the Palm OS.  Then when Pocket PC's came out and Windows Mobile, etc. SkyScape and I were in the same sort of business.  It's original founder and I were developing apps at the same time and emailing each other occasionally. At the time, I had no interest in developing for desktop computers.

I even went to different veterinary schools and conventions promoting the use of handheld computers in veterinary medicine. It was fun.

Anyway, both SkyScape and I both had businesses selling eBooks that did not utilize the AppStore.

Here is a "proof" that I once had a business selling software that I created or was reselling...
http://www.anmldr.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7 

I first started developing for the iPhone when only web pages were the "apps" that were used. There was no AppStore. Then most people had Apple products or Blackberries and not so much Androids--it had not taken off at that time. I stopped selling software and closed my (hobby) business as Palms and Pocket PCs, etc. faded out and since Apple would not approve my app.

>Selling content outside the AppStore via your iOS app raises all sorts of red flags.

I don't know why you are thinking that there should be red flags about my request though. SkyScape's app came out only a short time before mine was finished.  The same sort of verification process that they used was used in my app.  Theirs was approved and mine never was no matter how many times I updated it.

It was a hobby for me for my profession (I am a veterinarian).  Now, I am retired (early) due to vision problems and would like to start up my hobby again. I have not kept up with it all and so I asked for some theoretical help.

Thank you,
Linda


> On Jul 16, 2018, at 4:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 06:41:47 -0700
> From: Kee Nethery <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> Subject: Re: Apple's 30%--anyway around it?
> Message-ID: <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> First you develop a business selling ebooks that does not utilize the AppStore.
>
> You sell online and the ebooks are useable on macOS, Windows, Android, web browser.
>
> Once that is fully functional, you add yet another reader, one for iOS. People who have already purchased content via some other mechanism, can view that content on iOS.
>
> Selling content outside the AppStore via your iOS app raises all sorts of red flags.
>
> Kee Nethery

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Re: Apple's 30%--anyway around it?

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
Hi Linda,

Just so you can understand the process
I’m talking about, I want you to download
a book from https://www.gutenberg.org <https://www.gutenberg.org/>
on your iOS device. (Just get a free book
from them to try, and download it as a .pdf file.

The strategy you can then use is:

Turn your books into .pdf files.
Have people buy them from your website.
Have your website sell the book to them.
Use PayPal or a similar solution.

There are also other websites out there
already set up to sell your books for you.

You don’t need an app then, and you
don’t need apple either.

It should work fine.

The downside is that you won’t be uploading
your book to apple.  The upside is that they
won’t be taking 30% from you either.

Good luck!

Rick



> On Jul 16, 2018, at 5:46 PM, Linda Miller, DVM via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> First you develop a business selling ebooks that does not utilize the AppStore.
>> You sell online and the ebooks are useable on macOS, Windows, Android, web browser.
>
> Your proposal sounds as if I should spend many years developing a company and selling products for platforms that I am not really interested in (Windows and Mac OS)...and then and only then offer an iOS version. Why? Why not just iOS and Android?
>
> I did have a thriving business for about 10 years.  The eBooks and apps were first for the Palm OS.  Then when Pocket PC's came out and Windows Mobile, etc. SkyScape and I were in the same sort of business.  It's original founder and I were developing apps at the same time and emailing each other occasionally. At the time, I had no interest in developing for desktop computers.
>
> I even went to different veterinary schools and conventions promoting the use of handheld computers in veterinary medicine. It was fun.
>
> Anyway, both SkyScape and I both had businesses selling eBooks that did not utilize the AppStore.
>
> Here is a "proof" that I once had a business selling software that I created or was reselling...
> http://www.anmldr.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7 
>
> I first started developing for the iPhone when only web pages were the "apps" that were used. There was no AppStore. Then most people had Apple products or Blackberries and not so much Androids--it had not taken off at that time. I stopped selling software and closed my (hobby) business as Palms and Pocket PCs, etc. faded out and since Apple would not approve my app.
>
>> Selling content outside the AppStore via your iOS app raises all sorts of red flags.
>
> I don't know why you are thinking that there should be red flags about my request though. SkyScape's app came out only a short time before mine was finished.  The same sort of verification process that they used was used in my app.  Theirs was approved and mine never was no matter how many times I updated it.
>
> It was a hobby for me for my profession (I am a veterinarian).  Now, I am retired (early) due to vision problems and would like to start up my hobby again. I have not kept up with it all and so I asked for some theoretical help.
>
> Thank you,
> Linda
>
>
>> On Jul 16, 2018, at 4:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 06:41:47 -0700
>> From: Kee Nethery <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> Subject: Re: Apple's 30%--anyway around it?
>> Message-ID: <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> First you develop a business selling ebooks that does not utilize the AppStore.
>>
>> You sell online and the ebooks are useable on macOS, Windows, Android, web browser.
>>
>> Once that is fully functional, you add yet another reader, one for iOS. People who have already purchased content via some other mechanism, can view that content on iOS.
>>
>> Selling content outside the AppStore via your iOS app raises all sorts of red flags.
>>
>> Kee Nethery
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: Apple's 30%--anyway around it?

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
This would assume that Linda’s books don’t need an app—they aren’t interactive.

Peter


> On Jul 16, 2018, at 5:39 PM, Rick Harrison via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Linda,
>
> Just so you can understand the process
> I’m talking about, I want you to download
> a book from https://www.gutenberg.org <https://www.gutenberg.org/>
> on your iOS device. (Just get a free book
> from them to try, and download it as a .pdf file.
>
> The strategy you can then use is:
>
> Turn your books into .pdf files.
> Have people buy them from your website.
> Have your website sell the book to them.
> Use PayPal or a similar solution.
>
> There are also other websites out there
> already set up to sell your books for you.
>
> You don’t need an app then, and you
> don’t need apple either.
>
> It should work fine.
>
> The downside is that you won’t be uploading
> your book to apple.  The upside is that they
> won’t be taking 30% from you either.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Rick
>
>
>
>> On Jul 16, 2018, at 5:46 PM, Linda Miller, DVM via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> First you develop a business selling ebooks that does not utilize the AppStore.
>>> You sell online and the ebooks are useable on macOS, Windows, Android, web browser.
>>
>> Your proposal sounds as if I should spend many years developing a company and selling products for platforms that I am not really interested in (Windows and Mac OS)...and then and only then offer an iOS version. Why? Why not just iOS and Android?
>>
>> I did have a thriving business for about 10 years.  The eBooks and apps were first for the Palm OS.  Then when Pocket PC's came out and Windows Mobile, etc. SkyScape and I were in the same sort of business.  It's original founder and I were developing apps at the same time and emailing each other occasionally. At the time, I had no interest in developing for desktop computers.
>>
>> I even went to different veterinary schools and conventions promoting the use of handheld computers in veterinary medicine. It was fun.
>>
>> Anyway, both SkyScape and I both had businesses selling eBooks that did not utilize the AppStore.
>>
>> Here is a "proof" that I once had a business selling software that I created or was reselling...
>> http://www.anmldr.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7 
>>
>> I first started developing for the iPhone when only web pages were the "apps" that were used. There was no AppStore. Then most people had Apple products or Blackberries and not so much Androids--it had not taken off at that time. I stopped selling software and closed my (hobby) business as Palms and Pocket PCs, etc. faded out and since Apple would not approve my app.
>>
>>> Selling content outside the AppStore via your iOS app raises all sorts of red flags.
>>
>> I don't know why you are thinking that there should be red flags about my request though. SkyScape's app came out only a short time before mine was finished.  The same sort of verification process that they used was used in my app.  Theirs was approved and mine never was no matter how many times I updated it.
>>
>> It was a hobby for me for my profession (I am a veterinarian).  Now, I am retired (early) due to vision problems and would like to start up my hobby again. I have not kept up with it all and so I asked for some theoretical help.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Linda
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 16, 2018, at 4:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 06:41:47 -0700
>>> From: Kee Nethery <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>> To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>> Subject: Re: Apple's 30%--anyway around it?
>>> Message-ID: <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>
>>> First you develop a business selling ebooks that does not utilize the AppStore.
>>>
>>> You sell online and the ebooks are useable on macOS, Windows, Android, web browser.
>>>
>>> Once that is fully functional, you add yet another reader, one for iOS. People who have already purchased content via some other mechanism, can view that content on iOS.
>>>
>>> Selling content outside the AppStore via your iOS app raises all sorts of red flags.
>>>
>>> Kee Nethery
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Apple's 30%--anyway around it?

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
Hi Peter,

Yes that is the assumption.  If they were
originally made for Palm OS it is doubtful
they would have been interactive in the
first place. Although, PDF files can still
have hyperlinks to other websites which
could then provide additional interactive
functionality fo the book.

I hope the information is helpful.

Rick


> On Jul 16, 2018, at 9:53 PM, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This would assume that Linda’s books don’t need an app—they aren’t interactive.
>
> Peter

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Re: Apple's 30%--anyway around it?

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Clarence Martin via use-livecode
Similar to Kee’s example is that of Amazon Prime Video while still respecting the example given of the likes of Valve and Sony PlayStation streamers.

With Prime Video, users cannot purchase either a subscription or any content directly (or indirectly via a link) from the apps for iPad, iPhone or AppleTV. They are ‘instructed’ to purchase from the website (which they can do ironically in Safari on their iPad or iPhone). They cannot even purchase the content from the Amazon Shopping app staying simply ‘This item is not available to purchase from your device’ (while you can from the sister apps on Android devices).


> On 16 Jul 2018, at 14:27, Linda Miller, DVM via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I used to create apps and ebooks years and years ago for PDAs.  The only reason that I closed my business was Apple.  Let me explain.  I would contract with authors of books to publish an electronic version of their book. This was a new thing back then.  I also had a website where I sold the apps and eBooks.  I would get about 15% of the sale of every copy of books that I was publishing for Palm's and Pocket PC's.
>
> Then came the iPhone and Apple's app store.  They charged 30% for the sale of everything.  I was not making that much and I was the creator of the apps and the publisher of the eBooks.  I could not make it with those amounts.  There was a way around this that I could see for the eBooks.  
>
> SkyScape was a publisher of medical eBooks while mine were for veterinarians.  They provided a free app.  The customer would purchase eBooks on SkyScape's website. The customer would install the app on their device through Apple's AppStore and then either on their computer or their iPhone, they could go to SkyScape.com and purchase a book. Within the app, they had instructions for how to download their purchase. There was then a registration number depending on the device's IMEI(??) number or something that was specific to that customer.
>
> SkyScape did not have to pay Apple the 30%. They were selling the eBooks outside of the Apple environment. I could have had a great business and it would have continued to this day.  I spent a LOT of time and money developing a similar app.  It was great.  It was primarily an eBook reader but there were other functions in the app as well.  It could read .txt, ePub, .pdf, HTML, and maybe others, I don't remember.  The steps for purchasing, installing and registering eBooks was similar to what SkyScape had done.
>
> No matter how many changes I made, Apple kept refusing the app because I was selling the eBooks outside of their AppStore.
>
> SkyScape's business continues. Mine, I closed.  Our businesses were not competitors.  I even sold a few of their products through my website. I would buy a certain number at a discount and sell them at the regular price to the customer.
>
> I never could figure out how to get around whatever it was that made Apple not accept my free app on the AppStore and yet a similar product they are allowing to this day.
>
> I need help in figuring this out.  I have found LiveCode that I can use for development of apps on the different platforms.  I don't have to learn Xcode again.  But, I need to try to decide what to start developing.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> If you want to see the process, if I have not explained it well enough, download the SkyScape app for Android or iOS to your device (I have not done it recently).  There should be some free eBooks to install either through the app or on their website.  This may give you an idea.
>
> Linda
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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