Apples actual response to the Flash issue

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Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Thomas McGrath III-2
This is from the Apple website:

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Stephen Barncard-4
Wow. Pretty strong arguments.

On 29 April 2010 08:22, Thomas McGrath III <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is from the Apple website:
>
> http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
> _______________________________________________
>
--
-------------------------
Stephen Barncard
Back home in SF
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Thomas McGrath III-2
  On 29/04/2010 18:22, Thomas McGrath III wrote:
> This is from the Apple website:
>
> http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
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  That does make a lot of sense. . .  :)
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Stephen Barncard-4
  "If developers grow dependent on third party development libraries and
tools,
they can only take advantage of platform enhancements if and when the third
party chooses to adopt the new features."

That, my friends, could apply to RunRev as well as all the other
"third party development libraries and tools", which makes me
wonder how long it is until Apple, despite recent protestations,
starts drawing lines in the sand and getting "all restrictive"
with stuff built for Mac; maybe even building detection routines
into their OS to picl up on stuff no developed with their
developer tools?

Unfortunately, I have grown "dependent on third party development
libraries and tools",
i.e. RunRev (and I do not regret it for one moment), so I am praying
like Billy-Oh that this
does not happen.

Just in case it does, it would behoove RunRev to pay more attention to
one OS that
does not go in for restrictive practises: Linux . . . :)
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

René Micout
Dear Richmond,
Linux does not create Macintosh, iPhone and iPad !!
;-)
René

Le 29 avr. 2010 à 18:32, Richmond Mathewson a écrit :

> "If developers grow dependent on third party development libraries and tools,
> they can only take advantage of platform enhancements if and when the third
> party chooses to adopt the new features."
>
> That, my friends, could apply to RunRev as well as all the other
> "third party development libraries and tools", which makes me
> wonder how long it is until Apple, despite recent protestations,
> starts drawing lines in the sand and getting "all restrictive"
> with stuff built for Mac; maybe even building detection routines
> into their OS to picl up on stuff no developed with their
> developer tools?
>
> Unfortunately, I have grown "dependent on third party development libraries and tools",
> i.e. RunRev (and I do not regret it for one moment), so I am praying like Billy-Oh that this
> does not happen.
>
> Just in case it does, it would behoove RunRev to pay more attention to one OS that
> does not go in for restrictive practises: Linux . . . :)
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Roger Eller
On 04/29/2010 at 01:01 PM, René Micout wrote:
> Dear Richmond,
> Linux does not create Macintosh, iPhone and iPad !!
> ;-)
> René
>
>> On April 29, 2010 at 18:32, Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>> ... snip ...
>> Unfortunately, I have grown "dependent on third party development
libraries and tools",
>> i.e. RunRev (and I do not regret it for one moment), so I am praying
like Billy-Oh that this
>> does not happen.
>>
>> Just in case it does, it would behoove RunRev to pay more attention to
one OS that
>> does not go in for restrictive practises: Linux . . . :)

René,

I see your wink ;-) emoticon, so I know you are just poking at Richmond in
fun.  But on the serious side, there are other popular OS's for computers
and mobile devices that are far less restrictive than Apple.  Rev resources
do seem to be leaning heavily toward only one source as of lately.  I am
still waiting patiently for a Linux revWeb plugin and to see a maemo
version of RevMobile.  iThis and iThat seems to be more fun for the team
right now though.

~Roger Eller


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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

René Micout
Hello Roger,
I just want to point out that Apple is not only a creator of OS, but also the creator of computers throughout the last decades have greatly advanced the technology. This is what I understand the statement of Steve Jobs.
I also regret what could happen to RevMobile, with many projects around the iPad (for my own non-profit research).
But as we say in French : si cela ne se peut je ferais contre mauvaise fortune bon cœur !
Bon souvenir de Paris
René

Le 29 avr. 2010 à 19:17, [hidden email] a écrit :

> On 04/29/2010 at 01:01 PM, René Micout wrote:
>> Dear Richmond,
>> Linux does not create Macintosh, iPhone and iPad !!
>> ;-)
>> René
>>
>>> On April 29, 2010 at 18:32, Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>>> ... snip ...
>>> Unfortunately, I have grown "dependent on third party development
> libraries and tools",
>>> i.e. RunRev (and I do not regret it for one moment), so I am praying
> like Billy-Oh that this
>>> does not happen.
>>>
>>> Just in case it does, it would behoove RunRev to pay more attention to
> one OS that
>>> does not go in for restrictive practises: Linux . . . :)
>
> René,
>
> I see your wink ;-) emoticon, so I know you are just poking at Richmond in
> fun.  But on the serious side, there are other popular OS's for computers
> and mobile devices that are far less restrictive than Apple.  Rev resources
> do seem to be leaning heavily toward only one source as of lately.  I am
> still waiting patiently for a Linux revWeb plugin and to see a maemo
> version of RevMobile.  iThis and iThat seems to be more fun for the team
> right now though.
>
> ~Roger Eller
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by René Micout
  On 29/04/2010 20:01, René Micout wrote:
> Dear Richmond,
> Linux does not create Macintosh, iPhone and iPad !!
> ;-)
> René
>
I know.

Possibly you misunderstood the 'sting in the tail' of my message.

What I meant was that as there might be a risk of Macintosh closing its
doors to anything not developed with their Developer Tools it might be
a good idea for RunRev to concentrate of sorting out their Linux version.

> Le 29 avr. 2010 à 18:32, Richmond Mathewson a écrit :
>
>> "If developers grow dependent on third party development libraries and tools,
>> they can only take advantage of platform enhancements if and when the third
>> party chooses to adopt the new features."
>>
>> That, my friends, could apply to RunRev as well as all the other
>> "third party development libraries and tools", which makes me
>> wonder how long it is until Apple, despite recent protestations,
>> starts drawing lines in the sand and getting "all restrictive"
>> with stuff built for Mac; maybe even building detection routines
>> into their OS to picl up on stuff no developed with their
>> developer tools?
>>
>> Unfortunately, I have grown "dependent on third party development libraries and tools",
>> i.e. RunRev (and I do not regret it for one moment), so I am praying like Billy-Oh that this
>> does not happen.
>>
>> Just in case it does, it would behoove RunRev to pay more attention to one OS that
>> does not go in for restrictive practises: Linux . . . :)
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-revolution mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>

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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Peter Alcibiades
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Richmond Mathewson-2
  On 30/04/2010 21:36, Peter Alcibiades wrote:
> Some very wise comments on this issue:
>
> http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/04/pot-meet-kettle-a-response-to-steve-jobs-letter-on-flash.ars

Lest you forget: "freedom is slavery" . . .  :(
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Kay C Lan
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades
On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Peter Alcibiades <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Some very wise comments on this issue:
>
>
Yes, many of the reader 'comments' made about this article are very wise.
Unfortunately the article itself seems to be written by someone who believes
they live in an idealistic world where people are forced to buy Apple
products.

Weird.
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Richmond Mathewson-2
  On 01/05/2010 04:34, Kay C Lan wrote:

> On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Peter Alcibiades<
> [hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> Some very wise comments on this issue:
>>
> Yes, many of the reader 'comments' made about this article are very wise.
> Unfortunately the article itself seems to be written by someone who believes
> they live in an idealistic world where people are forced to buy Apple
> products.
>
Well; nobody is forced to buy Apple products, but there is a tremendous
amount of peer pressure among the 20-40 year olds (who make up the
majority of the tech consumers) which almost amounts to compulsion.

Steve Jobs, like it or not, does have dictatorial tendencies, and, like it
or not, he does have tremendous power.

It is entirely possible, of course, to pop round the corner, buy a cheapo
PC and run whatever form of Linux grabs your fancy for next to nothing -
I know because that is very much "my bag"; but I'm a 48 year-old
non-conformist who has had people being rude to and about him for so
long that he has ceased to care; having a sufficiently self-confident ego
that it hasn't been crushed over the years.

Unfortunately (at least from my point of view) the world that buys new
computers (i.e. North America, Europe, Australia and the Pacific Rim)
does not consist
of lots of goats; it consists of sheep mainly.

Last year, in Edinburgh the most informative thing for me (even more than
the conference) were the looks my wife's 7 year old G4 iBook was getting
in the Student halls of residence from Japanese students; several of them
came over and asked me why I didn't have a whizz-bang, spiffy-bananas
macBook - I don't think any of them could understand my reply:

"When it breaks down completely I will buy a new laptop, if I still need
one."

I have a similar problem with 3 spoilt rich kids I teach English to who
cannot understand why I have a G3 iMac at the front of the class
rather than some newer machine attached to a monster flat-screen
VDU. I have told them that when I put my fees up from £4 for 90
minutes to £40 I will get a flat-screen for myself upstairs; but that the
G3 is "just the ticket" for the school.
-------------------------------------------------
Yes, there are many wise remarks; but they are probably
tempered by a realisation that most of the "spending public"
are fairly foolish and prone to the winds of fashion.

The woman who helps my younger son with his Bulgarian literature
came round to borrow some money the other day because she had
seen a whopper flat-screen TV at half price in some trade mag a week
earlier and spent the month's food-and-bills money on it so she
could be just like the people next door (who enjoy a much larger income):
I forwent the temptation to give her a suitably pompous lecture . . .  :)

Quod erat  demonstrandum (kept the pomposity for here).

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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Peter Alcibiades
In reply to this post by Kay C Lan
The article starts out by endorsing Jobs' criticism of Flash and agreeing with him that the problem with Flash is that it is proprietary, and that an Internet in which much of the content is coded in a proprietary format which requires a particular software package from one vendor to access it, is a bad thing.

By 'a bad thing' people who make this argument usually mean that an outcome may result from the rational, informed and independent choices of the individuals who make up a society.  But were they collectively to be asked whether it they like or approve of it or prefer it, they would say no.  The ensemble of choices rational for the indiviiduals, when taken as a whole, diminishes utility for all.  We might prefer there to be clean fuel regulations, but if there are not any, coal is cheaper and its rational for us as individuals to burn it, because going to coke is more expensive for us, and will make no difference to total emissions.

Now consider revWeb.  Jobs would have the same objection to it.  If it were simply an easy and cheap way to write apps which run in a browser, that would be fine.  But if it were to get out and be, like Flash, a medium in which much public Internet content was coded, everyone would have to install the revWeb plug-in, and that would be only available from one vendor.  Both Jobs and the EFF would object to this even if, as with Flash, its adoption resulted from free individual choices by content developers and web users.

Jobs is then strongly critical of cross-platform development suites.  Rev is, or is trying to be, fully cross platform, and revWeb makes it cross platform in spades:  it makes it possible to compile to a browser application, as well as a standalone desktop application.  So this is cross platform between desktop and web browser app, and it also tries to be cross platform across browsers, and finally it is cross-platform in the traditional sense, between different operating systems.

The article points out that the grounds on which Jobs objects to Flash are also applicable to much of Apple's own conduct, and it points out in addition that the real problem for Jobs with cross platform development tools is that they allow 'write once run everywhere', whereas what Jobs would like is to have total control over applications and content on 'his' platform, and so would like to have writing for Apple be a dedicated exercise tailored to their platform.  Rev is clearly in the sights on this one.

There is an odd idea, in some recent defenses of Apple, and in the comments on Ars, that the only legitimate reply to a company doing something whose effects on society one does not approve of, as a citizen, is to refrain from buying their products.  This makes as much sense as the idea that if one disapproves of the potentially catastrophic effect of the mass adoption of financial derivatives in the finance sector, one should restrict one's action to not buying them.

The EFF is pointing out that proprietary content formats on the Net are a Bad Thing for everyone who wants to see information in non-proprietary formats, on grounds of intellectual freedom.   People who feel this, like me, often feel it because of hard experience of orphaned data.  There are cases in which nationally important content has simply vanished in electronic form, because of proprietary coding.  Now, we may not have been the authors or copyright owners of it.  But we have an interest in there being continued access to our cultural heritage, as readers and customers, yes, and as citizens.  The EFF would have the same problem with revWeb if it became adopted in the same way that Flash has been, for the same reasons.  Unless the approach of the company were to change.

Its then going on to point our that Apple achieves the same end, restriction of availability of content and of what people can do with their platforms, by different and additional means.

So the bottom line of the article is:  Adobe and Apple are two versions of closed and proprietary, and for one to criticize the other for being proprietary is rather hilarious, and both are bad for society.  

The lesson for us however should be that Rev meets two of Jobs' criteria for being linked to the Anti-Party clique:  One, its proprietary and on the net.  Two, its cross platform.  So watch out:  the next stop is a knock on the door at 3am and a long holiday in sunny Siberia.
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Kay C Lan
I guess someone else agrees with Apple:

http://www.itnews.com.au/News/173519,microsoft-announces-ie9-will-not-support-flash.aspx

What a hoot :-))
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Richmond Mathewson-2
  On 01/05/2010 10:34, Kay C Lan wrote:
> I guess someone else agrees with Apple:
>
> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/173519,microsoft-announces-ie9-will-not-support-flash.aspx
>
> What a hoot :-))

Is that person's name really "Hachamovitch"?

Hack - em - over - itch.

Must be the lack of sleep last night . . .  :)
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Peter Alcibiades
In reply to this post by Kay C Lan
I don't like or approve of Flash either!   But it is hilarious to see the people who are opposing it and why.  To an outside observer it seems like MS, Adobe, Apple are all about as alike as Coke and Pepsi on this one.  Maybe Apple is a bit worse but there's not much in it.

HTML5 is not open.  Its a different flavor of proprietary, by the way.  H264 is proprietary.

Its like Italy and Portugal should suddenly express pious horror about the fact that Greece is running large deficits.



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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Kay C Lan
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
If this were April 1st I'd certainly think you were on to something, but a
Google search of 'Dean Hachamovitch' reveals he really is who they say he
is.

Bye Bye Flash... Almost seems like a Tech Lynching. Now let me guess,
there'll be a whole bunch of rumours surrounding this event, followed by
legal action, accusations, investigations;  but inevitably a slow an painful
death.

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Richmond Mathewson <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>  On 01/05/2010 10:34, Kay C Lan wrote:
>
>> I guess someone else agrees with Apple:
>>
>>
>> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/173519,microsoft-announces-ie9-will-not-support-flash.aspx
>>
>> What a hoot :-))
>>
>
> Is that person's name really "Hachamovitch"?
>
> Hack - em - over - itch.
>
> Must be the lack of sleep last night . . .  :)
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Colin Holgate-2
In reply to this post by Kay C Lan

On May 1, 2010, at 3:34 AM, Kay C Lan wrote:

> I guess someone else agrees with Apple:
>
> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/173519,microsoft-announces-ie9-will-not-support-flash.aspx
>
> What a hoot :-))


That article has been quoted all over the place, and fortunately most of the debate has been about what bad reporting it is, and not about IE9's support of Flash. The IE9 support mentioned in the original blog (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/04/29/html5-video.aspx) is only talking about video formats, and not about Flash in general.


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RE: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Lynn Fredricks-2
In reply to this post by Kay C Lan
> I guess someone else agrees with Apple:
>
> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/173519,microsoft-announces-ie9-w
> ill-not-support-flash.aspx

I could be wrong, but I believe several sites are quoting this link:

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/04/29/html5-video.aspx

I don't think he is saying Flash won't work in IE 9, only that H.264 is the
only native video format that will run. Did IE 9 drop the IE 8 plugin
architecture?

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server

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Re: Apples actual response to the Flash issue

Ian Wood-3
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades

On 1 May 2010, at 08:55, Peter Alcibiades wrote:

> HTML5 is not open.  Its a different flavor of proprietary, by the  
> way.  H264
> is proprietary.

H264 is proprietary, but h264 is NOT part of HTML5. HTML5 just  
specifies a video tag without specifying the type of video.

HTML5 is no more proprietary than previous versions of HTML.

Ian
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