Contractors and open source software

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
38 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Contractors and open source software

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I had to work through a contract recently. This particular section was interesting. Thought I would share it here. I changed the organization name to [company] to protect this well respected entity.

I can understand their view on the use of open source software. What are your thoughts?

- - -
Public Software. Contractor will inform [company] in advance of incorporating any open source software into deliverables or services provided to [company] under this Agreement, provide [company] with an analysis of alternative options that do not include open source software, and will proceed with the use of open source software only to the extent of [company]’s written consent. To the extent Contractor incorporates permitted open source software into products or services provided to [company] under this Agreement such open source software (and/or Contractor’s inclusion thereof) will not require any software developed or delivered under the Agreement to be disclosed or distributed in source code form or made freely available to others.
- - -


Best regards,

Mark Talluto
livecloud.io <http://livecloud.io/>
nursenotes.net <http://nursenotes.net/>
canelasoftware.com <http://www.canelasoftware.com/>




_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Folks (Richard?):
Ok, I know this is really easy, I did it when I first installed it, and I’m probably just not seeing something, but ……..

I’m on Apple, 10.13.3 and LC 9.0.1

How do I get rid of the white background that covers the desktop when 4WDevolution is launched? I have gotten used to Devolution and like it, but it has become a bit annoying lately.

Second question: Since 9.0.1 RC1 of livecode, the 4WDevo tool palette will not stay on the left side. It is exactly offset to show both the LCE tools palette and the 4WDevo tools palette. But, if I want to toggle between them, having it offset is a pain. I can move it over using the Desktop feature of 4WDevo, but then it pops back to the right after clicking on the 4WDevo palette. Or, just drag it to the right, then it won’t drag back to the left where it started.

Could somebody remind me of how to hide the full screen background? Since Devo only began the palette location wierdness since LC 9 RC 1, I assume it’s a bug.

Best,
Bill

William A. Prothero
http://earthlearningsolutions.org

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Contractors and open source software

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
The big question I have is, do they mean the app you develop is open source, as in my Forms Generator project for example, or do they mean developed with open source software? As far as I know, the Indy and Business versions are not considered Open Source, and so what you develop with them, unless you make it so, is not Open Source.

The Community version license I think specifies that you cannot create software for resale, you have to purchase a commercial license, so you can't produce commercial software with Community without violating the license.

I will be corrected if this is not the case.

Bob S


> On Sep 4, 2018, at 16:07 , Mark Talluto via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I had to work through a contract recently. This particular section was interesting. Thought I would share it here. I changed the organization name to [company] to protect this well respected entity.
>
> I can understand their view on the use of open source software. What are your thoughts?
>
> - - -
> Public Software. Contractor will inform [company] in advance of incorporating any open source software into deliverables or services provided to [company] under this Agreement, provide [company] with an analysis of alternative options that do not include open source software, and will proceed with the use of open source software only to the extent of [company]’s written consent. To the extent Contractor incorporates permitted open source software into products or services provided to [company] under this Agreement such open source software (and/or Contractor’s inclusion thereof) will not require any software developed or delivered under the Agreement to be disclosed or distributed in source code form or made freely available to others.
> - - -
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Talluto

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Oh, gaads. I found the View/Backdrop menu setting to move it to the background.
Never mind….
Ok, the tools palette offset is still annoying.
Bill

> On Sep 4, 2018, at 4:32 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Folks (Richard?):
> Ok, I know this is really easy, I did it when I first installed it, and I’m probably just not seeing something, but ……..
>
> I’m on Apple, 10.13.3 and LC 9.0.1
>
> How do I get rid of the white background that covers the desktop when 4WDevolution is launched? I have gotten used to Devolution and like it, but it has become a bit annoying lately.
>
> Second question: Since 9.0.1 RC1 of livecode, the 4WDevo tool palette will not stay on the left side. It is exactly offset to show both the LCE tools palette and the 4WDevo tools palette. But, if I want to toggle between them, having it offset is a pain. I can move it over using the Desktop feature of 4WDevo, but then it pops back to the right after clicking on the 4WDevo palette. Or, just drag it to the right, then it won’t drag back to the left where it started.
>
> Could somebody remind me of how to hide the full screen background? Since Devo only began the palette location wierdness since LC 9 RC 1, I assume it’s a bug.
>
> Best,
> Bill
>
> William A. Prothero
> http://earthlearningsolutions.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Contractors and open source software

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 16:07:02 -0700
Mark Talluto via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Public Software. Contractor will inform [company] in advance of incorporating any open source software into deliverables or services provided to [company] under this Agreement, provide [company] with an analysis of alternative options that do not include open source software, and will proceed with the use of open source software only to the extent of [company]’s written consent. To the extent Contractor incorporates permitted open source software into products or services provided to [company] under this Agreement such open source software (and/or Contractor’s inclusion thereof) will not require any software developed or delivered under the Agreement to be disclosed or distributed in source code form or made freely available to others.
> - - -
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Talluto

It seems reasonable. They want to avoid any unanticipated legal hassles ($$$) with open-source license holders, and also avoid having to turn over anything that they would prefer to be their own private intellectual property. They're on the ball. How this would play out could depend on which open-source license is involved. There are possibly some that they could accept since they allow more freedom than some others.

Warren

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Contractors and open source software

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I tried looking at is from a very wide perspective and considered that portions of the LiveCode engine are open-sourced, even if we are using the closed source version. Since I am not a fan of being involved in legal situations, I also considered that the software takes advantage of the internet, servers running Linux, PHP and Apache. I do not want to leave any potential legal issues uncovered. So, we requested to have that section removed from the contract. Guess what? They took it out. Now I have nothing to worry about. Still found it interesting.

-Mark Talluto


> On Sep 4, 2018, at 4:34 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The big question I have is, do they mean the app you develop is open source, as in my Forms Generator project for example, or do they mean developed with open source software? As far as I know, the Indy and Business versions are not considered Open Source, and so what you develop with them, unless you make it so, is not Open Source.
>
> The Community version license I think specifies that you cannot create software for resale, you have to purchase a commercial license, so you can't produce commercial software with Community without violating the license.
>
> I will be corrected if this is not the case.
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Sep 4, 2018, at 16:07 , Mark Talluto via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I had to work through a contract recently. This particular section was interesting. Thought I would share it here. I changed the organization name to [company] to protect this well respected entity.
>>
>> I can understand their view on the use of open source software. What are your thoughts?
>>
>> - - -
>> Public Software. Contractor will inform [company] in advance of incorporating any open source software into deliverables or services provided to [company] under this Agreement, provide [company] with an analysis of alternative options that do not include open source software, and will proceed with the use of open source software only to the extent of [company]’s written consent. To the extent Contractor incorporates permitted open source software into products or services provided to [company] under this Agreement such open source software (and/or Contractor’s inclusion thereof) will not require any software developed or delivered under the Agreement to be disclosed or distributed in source code form or made freely available to others.
>> - - -
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Mark Talluto
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Must be a bad day. It’s 4World, of course.
Bill

>>
>> Second question: Since 9.0.1 RC1 of livecode, the 4WDevo tool palette will not stay on the left side. It is exactly offset to show both the LCE tools palette and the 4WDevo tools palette. But, if I want to toggle between them, having it offset is a pain. I can move it over using the Desktop feature of 4WDevo, but then it pops back to the right after clicking on the 4WDevo palette. Or, just drag it to the right, then it won’t drag back to the left where it started.
>>
>> Best,
>> Bill
>>
>> William A. Prothero
>> http://earthlearningsolutions.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Contractors and open source software

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 09/04/2018 04:57 PM, Warren Samples via use-livecode wrote:

> It seems reasonable. They want to avoid any unanticipated legal hassles ($$$) with open-source license holders, and also avoid having to turn over anything that they would prefer to be their own private intellectual property. They're on the ball. How this would play out could depend on which open-source license is involved. There are possibly some that they could accept since they allow more freedom than some others.

That's my take as well. They're looking ahead to avoid conflicting
licenses and keep out of legal trouble. I haven't seen that in a
contract before, but now that I see it I'm surprised why not. No doubt
it's a good thing that they pulled it out - it's something for the
lawyer types to throw around.

A few years ago I found a clause in an nda that, among other things,
stipulated that I was not to disclose the existence of the nda (!). I
squawked about it and refused to sign and the lawyers struck the clause.

--
  Mark Wieder
  [hidden email]

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
William Prothero wrote:

> Folks (Richard?):
> Ok, I know this is really easy, I did it when I first installed it,
> and I’m probably just not seeing something, but ……..
>
> I’m on Apple, 10.13.3 and LC 9.0.1
>
> How do I get rid of the white background that covers the desktop when
> 4WDevolution is launched? I have gotten used to Devolution and like
> it, but it has become a bit annoying lately.

Thanks for writing, Bill.  I got your email as well, still catching up
on my In Box after the long holiday weekend.  Replying here is just as good.

4W devo does not alter the IDE's backdrop settings.  And unfortunately,
I'm not able to reproduce that here.

If you open LC's Prefs you should be able to turn off the backdrop from
there.

If you have any other details which might help me reproduce that I'll be
happy to see what I can do, but AFAIK there are no interactions between
4W devo's prefs and LC's.



> Second question: Since 9.0.1 RC1 of livecode, the 4WDevo tool palette
> will not stay on the left side. It is exactly offset to show both the
> LCE tools palette and the 4WDevo tools palette. But, if I want to
> toggle between them, having it offset is a pain. I can move it over
> using the Desktop feature of 4WDevo, but then it pops back to the
> right after clicking on the 4WDevo palette. Or, just drag it to the
> right, then it won’t drag back to the left where it started.

Another oddity that I'm afraid I can't reproduce.  But then again, I
spend relatively little time in LC with the IDE's Tool Palette open.
I'll play around with it and see what I can find.  If you come up with a
step-by-step recipe for me to follow that would help.

Thanks for the report.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 ____________________________________________________________________
 [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Contractors and open source software

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Bob Sneidar wrote:

> The Community version license I think specifies that you cannot create
> software for resale, you have to purchase a commercial license, so you
> can't produce commercial software with Community without violating the
> license.
>
> I will be corrected if this is not the case.

Your friendly neighborhood FOSS curmudgeon at your service. :)

The GPL expresses no opinion about charging a price for software.  The
"free" in "Free Software" is about freedom: you are free to use the
software however you like, modify it however you like, and share the
modifications with anyone you like.

As a practical matter, though, Free Software is also usually given away
without cost. This is not a licensing requirement, but merely a
reflection of the economic reality at play: if your user has the right
to share the software with anyone at any price or no price at all, they
usually will, so you'd sell exactly one copy.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 ____________________________________________________________________
 [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Contractors and open source software

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Mark Talluto wrote:

> I had to work through a contract recently. This particular section was
> interesting. Thought I would share it here. I changed the organization
> name to [company] to protect this well respected entity.
>
> I can understand their view on the use of open source software. What
> are your thoughts?
>
> - - -
> Public Software. Contractor will inform [company] in advance of
> incorporating any open source software into deliverables or services
> provided to [company] under this Agreement, provide [company] with an
> analysis of alternative options that do not include open source
> software, and will proceed with the use of open source software only
> to the extent of [company]’s written consent. To the extent Contractor
> incorporates permitted open source software into products or services
> provided to [company] under this Agreement such open source software
> (and/or Contractor’s inclusion thereof) will not require any software
> developed or delivered under the Agreement to be disclosed or
> distributed in source code form or made freely available to others.
> - - -

Warren Samples' reply said it well.

Nothing to add beyond an appreciation for predictable licensing.  MIT,
Apache, GPL - all very popular and well known.

Proprietary software allows proprietary delivery, but with a very
complicated hitch: you have to review every license of every component
carefully to make sure all terms are compatible with one another.  This
is especially difficult with proprietary software since most licenses
are, well, proprietary themselves.


> I tried looking at is from a very wide perspective and considered that
> portions of the LiveCode engine are open-sourced, even if we are using
> the closed source version.

If one were delivering something under open source license, I would
strongly recommend using the GPL-governed Community Edition.  The
binaries are similar but not the same, and only the GPL-governed edition
gives you the right to redistribute the engine in standalone form under
GPL license.


> So, we requested to have that section removed from the contract. Guess
> what? They took it out. Now I have nothing to worry about. Still found
> it interesting.

Some of the best business advice I was ever given was from my boss when
I was doing contract review for an environmental remediation firm (talk
about loooooong contracts):

"Their counsel's job is to ask for the world.  Your job is to ask for
half of it back."

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 ____________________________________________________________________
 [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Richard:
Here’s what I found on the palette thing. I’m no longer worried about the backdrop because it was just me not seeing that there was a LC toolbar menu item that would turn it off. In fact, I may have been blaming Devo incorrectly, when it was LC’s responsibility.

If you, in 9.0.1 RC 2 or 3, drag the 4W toolbar to the right, lift the mouse, then drag it back to the left, I see it refusing to be dragged fully to the left. In LC 8.2.0, it acts normally, but in  LC 9.0.1 RC3, it won’t return all the way left. It seems like it’s trying to leave space for the IDE Tools palette, but it doesn’t matter whether it’s visible or not.

Richard, I can live with this. I’m on a Mac. It should be very easy to replicate, if it’s happening on your computer. I wonder if there was some change in the messaging in 9.0.1 versions that causes this.

Best,
Bill

> On Sep 4, 2018, at 8:12 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> William Prothero wrote:
>
>> Folks (Richard?):
>> Ok, I know this is really easy, I did it when I first installed it,
>> and I’m probably just not seeing something, but ……..
>>
>> I’m on Apple, 10.13.3 and LC 9.0.1
>>
>> How do I get rid of the white background that covers the desktop when
>> 4WDevolution is launched? I have gotten used to Devolution and like
>> it, but it has become a bit annoying lately.
>
> Thanks for writing, Bill.  I got your email as well, still catching up
> on my In Box after the long holiday weekend.  Replying here is just as good.
>
> 4W devo does not alter the IDE's backdrop settings.  And unfortunately,
> I'm not able to reproduce that here.
>
> If you open LC's Prefs you should be able to turn off the backdrop from
> there.
>
> If you have any other details which might help me reproduce that I'll be
> happy to see what I can do, but AFAIK there are no interactions between
> 4W devo's prefs and LC's.
>
>
>
>> Second question: Since 9.0.1 RC1 of livecode, the 4WDevo tool palette
>> will not stay on the left side. It is exactly offset to show both the
>> LCE tools palette and the 4WDevo tools palette. But, if I want to
>> toggle between them, having it offset is a pain. I can move it over
>> using the Desktop feature of 4WDevo, but then it pops back to the
>> right after clicking on the 4WDevo palette. Or, just drag it to the
>> right, then it won’t drag back to the left where it started.
>
> Another oddity that I'm afraid I can't reproduce.  But then again, I
> spend relatively little time in LC with the IDE's Tool Palette open.
> I'll play around with it and see what I can find.  If you come up with a
> step-by-step recipe for me to follow that would help.
>
> Thanks for the report.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Contractors and open source software

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 2018-09-05 01:07, Mark Talluto via use-livecode wrote:

> I had to work through a contract recently. This particular section was
> interesting. Thought I would share it here. I changed the organization
> name to [company] to protect this well respected entity.
>
> I can understand their view on the use of open source software. What
> are your thoughts?
>
> - - -
> Public Software. Contractor will inform [company] in advance of
> incorporating any open source software into deliverables or services
> provided to [company] under this Agreement, provide [company] with an
> analysis of alternative options that do not include open source
> software, and will proceed with the use of open source software only
> to the extent of [company]’s written consent. To the extent Contractor
> incorporates permitted open source software into products or services
> provided to [company] under this Agreement such open source software
> (and/or Contractor’s inclusion thereof) will not require any software
> developed or delivered under the Agreement to be disclosed or
> distributed in source code form or made freely available to others.
> - - -

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable clause which is more protection for
you than the contractor.

Basically it ensures that the Contractor will do necessary due diligence
on the software licenses attached to any source-code they incorporate
into the project being worked on to ensure that:

   (a) you as the contractee are happy with using said software under its
published terms and are willing to abide by them (for MIT / BSD, that
just means an 'open source licenses' file, which you need to one of
anyway, as that is part of the commercial license terms of LiveCode).

   (b) will not let you get into a situation where source-code has been
incorporated which means that you entire project must be released under
some open source license.

Put another way the contractor is saying that:

   1) They will notify you of any parts which could be done using open
source software, and with other options so you have choice

   2) They will not consider viral open source licenses (e.g. GPL) as
being suitable for inclusion

LiveCode's licensing is pretty straightforward:

If you have a commercial license you have the right to use a downloaded
distribution in any way which does not contravene the commercial license
terms.

If you do not have a commercial license then you must be using the
Community version, which is licensed under the GPL - which is viral -
meaning that any software you create with it must also be distributed
under GPL terms.

The two variants are, however, completely incompatible in terms of
licensing - you can't take parts of (GPL licensed!) community and use
them with commercial as that would mean your combined work would end up
being GPL, but the commercial part is not, so you cannot distribute
(which is a side-effect of the clauses in the GPL).

Specific example - you cannot take parts of (GPL Licensed, LiveCode Ltd.
Copyrighted) source code, recompile and use with commercial - even if
you have a commercial license. That requires a specific commercial
source-code license for those particular parts (something which we will
always consider on a case-by-case basis - although generally not for
zero cost).

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ [hidden email] ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Richard:
I’ve been playing around with this and noticed that if i move the IDE tools palette to the right far enough, the 4WDevo palette will move as far to the left as I want. So that tells me there is some interaction between the IDE tools palette and the 4W palette.

Again, if you can’t make it happen, I can live with it, especially now that I’ve played with it a bit more. It’s really pretty minor.
Best,
Bill

> On Sep 4, 2018, at 10:27 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Richard:
> Here’s what I found on the palette thing. I’m no longer worried about the backdrop because it was just me not seeing that there was a LC toolbar menu item that would turn it off. In fact, I may have been blaming Devo incorrectly, when it was LC’s responsibility.
>
> If you, in 9.0.1 RC 2 or 3, drag the 4W toolbar to the right, lift the mouse, then drag it back to the left, I see it refusing to be dragged fully to the left. In LC 8.2.0, it acts normally, but in  LC 9.0.1 RC3, it won’t return all the way left. It seems like it’s trying to leave space for the IDE Tools palette, but it doesn’t matter whether it’s visible or not.
>
> Richard, I can live with this. I’m on a Mac. It should be very easy to replicate, if it’s happening on your computer. I wonder if there was some change in the messaging in 9.0.1 versions that causes this.
>
> Best,
> Bill
>
>> On Sep 4, 2018, at 8:12 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> William Prothero wrote:
>>
>>> Folks (Richard?):
>>> Ok, I know this is really easy, I did it when I first installed it,
>>> and I’m probably just not seeing something, but ……..
>>>
>>> I’m on Apple, 10.13.3 and LC 9.0.1
>>>
>>> How do I get rid of the white background that covers the desktop when
>>> 4WDevolution is launched? I have gotten used to Devolution and like
>>> it, but it has become a bit annoying lately.
>>
>> Thanks for writing, Bill.  I got your email as well, still catching up
>> on my In Box after the long holiday weekend.  Replying here is just as good.
>>
>> 4W devo does not alter the IDE's backdrop settings.  And unfortunately,
>> I'm not able to reproduce that here.
>>
>> If you open LC's Prefs you should be able to turn off the backdrop from
>> there.
>>
>> If you have any other details which might help me reproduce that I'll be
>> happy to see what I can do, but AFAIK there are no interactions between
>> 4W devo's prefs and LC's.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Second question: Since 9.0.1 RC1 of livecode, the 4WDevo tool palette
>>> will not stay on the left side. It is exactly offset to show both the
>>> LCE tools palette and the 4WDevo tools palette. But, if I want to
>>> toggle between them, having it offset is a pain. I can move it over
>>> using the Desktop feature of 4WDevo, but then it pops back to the
>>> right after clicking on the 4WDevo palette. Or, just drag it to the
>>> right, then it won’t drag back to the left where it started.
>>
>> Another oddity that I'm afraid I can't reproduce.  But then again, I
>> spend relatively little time in LC with the IDE's Tool Palette open.
>> I'll play around with it and see what I can find.  If you come up with a
>> step-by-step recipe for me to follow that would help.
>>
>> Thanks for the report.
>>
>> --
>> Richard Gaskin
>> Fourth World Systems
>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Multi-monitor issue?


Best regards,

Mark Talluto
livecloud.io <http://livecloud.io/>
nursenotes.net <http://nursenotes.net/>
canelasoftware.com <http://www.canelasoftware.com/>




> On Sep 4, 2018, at 10:41 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Richard:
> I’ve been playing around with this and noticed that if i move the IDE tools palette to the right far enough, the 4WDevo palette will move as far to the left as I want. So that tells me there is some interaction between the IDE tools palette and the 4W palette.
>
> Again, if you can’t make it happen, I can live with it, especially now that I’ve played with it a bit more. It’s really pretty minor.
> Best,
> Bill
>
>> On Sep 4, 2018, at 10:27 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Richard:
>> Here’s what I found on the palette thing. I’m no longer worried about the backdrop because it was just me not seeing that there was a LC toolbar menu item that would turn it off. In fact, I may have been blaming Devo incorrectly, when it was LC’s responsibility.
>>
>> If you, in 9.0.1 RC 2 or 3, drag the 4W toolbar to the right, lift the mouse, then drag it back to the left, I see it refusing to be dragged fully to the left. In LC 8.2.0, it acts normally, but in  LC 9.0.1 RC3, it won’t return all the way left. It seems like it’s trying to leave space for the IDE Tools palette, but it doesn’t matter whether it’s visible or not.
>>
>> Richard, I can live with this. I’m on a Mac. It should be very easy to replicate, if it’s happening on your computer. I wonder if there was some change in the messaging in 9.0.1 versions that causes this.
>>
>> Best,
>> Bill
>>
>>> On Sep 4, 2018, at 8:12 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> William Prothero wrote:
>>>
>>>> Folks (Richard?):
>>>> Ok, I know this is really easy, I did it when I first installed it,
>>>> and I’m probably just not seeing something, but ……..
>>>>
>>>> I’m on Apple, 10.13.3 and LC 9.0.1
>>>>
>>>> How do I get rid of the white background that covers the desktop when
>>>> 4WDevolution is launched? I have gotten used to Devolution and like
>>>> it, but it has become a bit annoying lately.
>>>
>>> Thanks for writing, Bill.  I got your email as well, still catching up
>>> on my In Box after the long holiday weekend.  Replying here is just as good.
>>>
>>> 4W devo does not alter the IDE's backdrop settings.  And unfortunately,
>>> I'm not able to reproduce that here.
>>>
>>> If you open LC's Prefs you should be able to turn off the backdrop from
>>> there.
>>>
>>> If you have any other details which might help me reproduce that I'll be
>>> happy to see what I can do, but AFAIK there are no interactions between
>>> 4W devo's prefs and LC's.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Second question: Since 9.0.1 RC1 of livecode, the 4WDevo tool palette
>>>> will not stay on the left side. It is exactly offset to show both the
>>>> LCE tools palette and the 4WDevo tools palette. But, if I want to
>>>> toggle between them, having it offset is a pain. I can move it over
>>>> using the Desktop feature of 4WDevo, but then it pops back to the
>>>> right after clicking on the 4WDevo palette. Or, just drag it to the
>>>> right, then it won’t drag back to the left where it started.
>>>
>>> Another oddity that I'm afraid I can't reproduce.  But then again, I
>>> spend relatively little time in LC with the IDE's Tool Palette open.
>>> I'll play around with it and see what I can find.  If you come up with a
>>> step-by-step recipe for me to follow that would help.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the report.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Richard Gaskin
>>> Fourth World Systems
>>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I do have 2 monitors. It started to appear in LC 9.0.1
Bill

William Prothero
http://ed.earthednet.org

> On Sep 5, 2018, at 8:56 AM, Mark Talluto via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Multi-monitor issue?
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Talluto
> livecloud.io <http://livecloud.io/>
> nursenotes.net <http://nursenotes.net/>
> canelasoftware.com <http://www.canelasoftware.com/>
>
>
>
>
>> On Sep 4, 2018, at 10:41 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Richard:
>> I’ve been playing around with this and noticed that if i move the IDE tools palette to the right far enough, the 4WDevo palette will move as far to the left as I want. So that tells me there is some interaction between the IDE tools palette and the 4W palette.
>>
>> Again, if you can’t make it happen, I can live with it, especially now that I’ve played with it a bit more. It’s really pretty minor.
>> Best,
>> Bill
>>
>>> On Sep 4, 2018, at 10:27 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Richard:
>>> Here’s what I found on the palette thing. I’m no longer worried about the backdrop because it was just me not seeing that there was a LC toolbar menu item that would turn it off. In fact, I may have been blaming Devo incorrectly, when it was LC’s responsibility.
>>>
>>> If you, in 9.0.1 RC 2 or 3, drag the 4W toolbar to the right, lift the mouse, then drag it back to the left, I see it refusing to be dragged fully to the left. In LC 8.2.0, it acts normally, but in  LC 9.0.1 RC3, it won’t return all the way left. It seems like it’s trying to leave space for the IDE Tools palette, but it doesn’t matter whether it’s visible or not.
>>>
>>> Richard, I can live with this. I’m on a Mac. It should be very easy to replicate, if it’s happening on your computer. I wonder if there was some change in the messaging in 9.0.1 versions that causes this.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>> On Sep 4, 2018, at 8:12 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> William Prothero wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Folks (Richard?):
>>>>> Ok, I know this is really easy, I did it when I first installed it,
>>>>> and I’m probably just not seeing something, but ……..
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m on Apple, 10.13.3 and LC 9.0.1
>>>>>
>>>>> How do I get rid of the white background that covers the desktop when
>>>>> 4WDevolution is launched? I have gotten used to Devolution and like
>>>>> it, but it has become a bit annoying lately.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for writing, Bill.  I got your email as well, still catching up
>>>> on my In Box after the long holiday weekend.  Replying here is just as good.
>>>>
>>>> 4W devo does not alter the IDE's backdrop settings.  And unfortunately,
>>>> I'm not able to reproduce that here.
>>>>
>>>> If you open LC's Prefs you should be able to turn off the backdrop from
>>>> there.
>>>>
>>>> If you have any other details which might help me reproduce that I'll be
>>>> happy to see what I can do, but AFAIK there are no interactions between
>>>> 4W devo's prefs and LC's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Second question: Since 9.0.1 RC1 of livecode, the 4WDevo tool palette
>>>>> will not stay on the left side. It is exactly offset to show both the
>>>>> LCE tools palette and the 4WDevo tools palette. But, if I want to
>>>>> toggle between them, having it offset is a pain. I can move it over
>>>>> using the Desktop feature of 4WDevo, but then it pops back to the
>>>>> right after clicking on the 4WDevo palette. Or, just drag it to the
>>>>> right, then it won’t drag back to the left where it started.
>>>>
>>>> Another oddity that I'm afraid I can't reproduce.  But then again, I
>>>> spend relatively little time in LC with the IDE's Tool Palette open.
>>>> I'll play around with it and see what I can find.  If you come up with a
>>>> step-by-step recipe for me to follow that would help.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the report.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Richard Gaskin
>>>> Fourth World Systems
>>>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>>> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
William Prothero wrote:

 > Richard:
 > Here’s what I found on the palette thing. I’m no longer worried about
 > the backdrop because it was just me not seeing that there was a LC
 > toolbar menu item that would turn it off. In fact, I may have been
 > blaming Devo incorrectly, when it was LC’s responsibility.
 >
 > If you, in 9.0.1 RC 2 or 3, drag the 4W toolbar to the right, lift the
 > mouse, then drag it back to the left, I see it refusing to be dragged
 > fully to the left. In LC 8.2.0, it acts normally, but in  LC 9.0.1
 > RC3, it won’t return all the way left. It seems like it’s trying to
 > leave space for the IDE Tools palette, but it doesn’t matter whether
 > it’s visible or not.

I see what's happening there.  It appears the IDE team is attempting to
use a floating palette in a highly unusual way: rather than floating on
top of a document, it's assumed to be placed at the left and when it is
the windowBoundingRect is adjusted so that no other windows can be
placed in a way that overlap it.  When the tool palette is moved to any
other location sufficiently away from the left edge, the
windowBoundingRect is apparently restore to the normal bounds everyone
normally expects.

You will find that the IDE's change to the windowBoundingRect affects
all windows when using the maximize option for a window.

This affects the dragging of 4W devolution's window because I have a
customized appearance with my own title bar, and have scripted the
dragging behavior to account for the windowBoundingRect so the window
cannot be submarined beneath the menu bar or the Dock.

In my own work, I spend relatively little time with the IDE's tool
palette open. Layout normally occupies just a bit of up-front time, with
most of my time spend scripting the objects I'd laid out.  And of course
since the devo palette has its own controls for creating the two most
commonly-used objects, buttons and fields, sometimes I go weeks without
ever opening the IDE's tool palette at all.

And since devo makes it more convenient to open and close the IDE's tool
palette with its generously-sized toggle buttons for the most common IDE
windows, I find that when I do use the IDE's tool palette it's just to
create an object or two and then I put it away again until I need it.
It takes up a LOT of room for something used so seldom during the
workflow; making it easy to access it ONLY WHEN I NEED IT was part of
the motivation for making devo.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  http://fourthworld.com/products/devolution/



_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Richard,
Thanks for looking into this. My problem came when the Devo palette wouldn’t move to the left, even if the IDE tools palette was closed. But, it’s easy to fix by just moving the IDE Tools palette to the right until it lets me move the Devo palette to the left, then it no longer snaps right.

No worries, it’s just an idiosyncrasy that’s easily dealt with.
Best,
Bill

> On Sep 6, 2018, at 1:15 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> William Prothero wrote:
>
> > Richard:
> > Here’s what I found on the palette thing. I’m no longer worried about
> > the backdrop because it was just me not seeing that there was a LC
> > toolbar menu item that would turn it off. In fact, I may have been
> > blaming Devo incorrectly, when it was LC’s responsibility.
> >
> > If you, in 9.0.1 RC 2 or 3, drag the 4W toolbar to the right, lift the
> > mouse, then drag it back to the left, I see it refusing to be dragged
> > fully to the left. In LC 8.2.0, it acts normally, but in  LC 9.0.1
> > RC3, it won’t return all the way left. It seems like it’s trying to
> > leave space for the IDE Tools palette, but it doesn’t matter whether
> > it’s visible or not.
>
> I see what's happening there.  It appears the IDE team is attempting to use a floating palette in a highly unusual way: rather than floating on top of a document, it's assumed to be placed at the left and when it is the windowBoundingRect is adjusted so that no other windows can be placed in a way that overlap it.  When the tool palette is moved to any other location sufficiently away from the left edge, the windowBoundingRect is apparently restore to the normal bounds everyone normally expects.
>


_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 09/06/2018 01:15 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

> I see what's happening there.  It appears the IDE team is attempting to
> use a floating palette in a highly unusual way: rather than floating on
> top of a document, it's assumed to be placed at the left and when it is
> the windowBoundingRect is adjusted so that no other windows can be
> placed in a way that overlap it.  When the tool palette is moved to any
> other location sufficiently away from the left edge, the
> windowBoundingRect is apparently restore to the normal bounds everyone
> normally expects.
>
> You will find that the IDE's change to the windowBoundingRect affects
> all windows when using the maximize option for a window.
>
> This affects the dragging of 4W devolution's window because I have a
> customized appearance with my own title bar, and have scripted the
> dragging behavior to account for the windowBoundingRect so the window
> cannot be submarined beneath the menu bar or the Dock.

Interesting. I haven't used the tools palette for many years, but I see
no strange interactions between PowerTools and Devolution either on
linux or on osx. Is the built-in tools palette doing something it
shouldn't be doing then? That sounds worthy of a bug report.

--
  Mark Wieder
  [hidden email]

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 3WDevolution question

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Mark Wieder wrote:

 > On 09/06/2018 01:15 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
 >
 >> I see what's happening there.  It appears the IDE team is attempting
 >> to use a floating palette in a highly unusual way: rather than
 >> floating on top of a document, it's assumed to be placed at the left
 >> and when it is the windowBoundingRect is adjusted so that no other
 >> windows can be placed in a way that overlap it.  When the tool
 >> palette is moved to any other location sufficiently away from the
 >> left edge, the windowBoundingRect is apparently restore to the normal
 >> bounds everyone normally expects.
 >>
 >> You will find that the IDE's change to the windowBoundingRect affects
 >> all windows when using the maximize option for a window.
 >>
 >> This affects the dragging of 4W devolution's window because I have a
 >> customized appearance with my own title bar, and have scripted the
 >> dragging behavior to account for the windowBoundingRect so the window
 >> cannot be submarined beneath the menu bar or the Dock.
 >
 > Interesting. I haven't used the tools palette for many years, but I
 > see no strange interactions between PowerTools and Devolution either
 > on linux or on osx. Is the built-in tools palette doing something it
 > shouldn't be doing then? That sounds worthy of a bug report.

Maximize a window when the tool palette is flush left, then restore,
then try again after the palette has been moved more toward screen
center.  The changes the IDE makes to the windowBoundingRect should be
evident with that recipe on all platforms.

As for reporting it, I think it's more in the category of "design
decision", attempting to emulate a docked side panel when the tool
palette is at the left of the screen, while allowing it to resume the
customary behavior of a floating palette when placed anywhere else.

I find it's usually much faster and easier for me to modify and augment
the IDE however I like than to discuss it. LC Script is often a much
more efficient development solution than English. :)

If others feel strongly that the windowBoundingRect should not be
dynamically altered based on the position of a floating palette they're
welcome to report it.  I generally limit my own reports to engine issues
beyond my ability to correct for, or things frequently raised by
newcomers in the forums.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
12