Download and Run Stacks - Can Do On Mobile?

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Download and Run Stacks - Can Do On Mobile?

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami
I remember being "blown away" years ago in the late 90's when Scott
Raney had a little demo of

go stack url "http://somedomain.com/somestack.mc"

and it downloaded and ran the stack.

I later created a little desktop "CPU/Index" type app/splash screen
engine. and users could download and run modules I put on our web
server. It was a bit too far ahead of it's time and went nowhere (circa
1999-2000)   But everyone was rushing to the browser to do everything

Now I'm sitting here with Adobe's Creative Cloud app, and many others
like "iTunes" itself, DropBox, COPY etc all the same thing: thin client
on your desktop, talks to remote servers, now called"the cloud"  So all
the naysayers who said people would not download and install apps were
wrong (to some extent... the trust factor is still an issue for broad
deployment)

    Istill deploy some tools that way. So now, 13 years later, others on
the team here are saying "Oh... look, Adobe is doing it now like you've
been doing it all along..." All you can do is smile....

But, can we do this on Mobile?  can the app on your iPhone download and
run stacks?  I think not... What about Android?  Probably not also...
security constraints....

Swasti Astu, Be Well!
Brahmanathaswami




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Re: Download and Run Stacks - Can Do On Mobile?

Richard Gaskin
Brahmanathswami wrote:

 > I remember being "blown away" years ago in the late 90's when Scott
 > Raney had a little demo of
 >
 > go stack url "http://somedomain.com/somestack.mc"
 >
 > and it downloaded and ran the stack.
...
 > But, can we do this on Mobile?  can the app on your iPhone download
 > and run stacks?  I think not... What about Android?  Probably not
 > also... security constraints....

For the last several months a majority of the projects I manage are
client-server apps that rely on downloaded stacks, so the server's not
just deploying data, but the code and UI too.  Tons of fun for all -
clients love seeing new features roll out without every having to
install anything new.

This type of distribution is technically sound on all platforms, and
allowed on all but one:  iOS' SDK license explicitly forbids apps that
download executable code.

Apple may change their mind in the future, but for now this is something
we can enjoy on all other devices on the planet, but we must make our
iOS customers wait for a larger, more complicated complete install.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
  ____________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]        http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Download and Run Stacks - Can Do On Mobile?

Walt Brown
Check out Novocard. It says it is HC like, and allows keeping and sharing
stacks in the cloud, and runs on iOS.
Walt

On Saturday, September 13, 2014, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Brahmanathswami wrote:
>
> > I remember being "blown away" years ago in the late 90's when Scott
> > Raney had a little demo of
> >
> > go stack url "http://somedomain.com/somestack.mc"
> >
> > and it downloaded and ran the stack.
> ...
> > But, can we do this on Mobile?  can the app on your iPhone download
> > and run stacks?  I think not... What about Android?  Probably not
> > also... security constraints....
>
> For the last several months a majority of the projects I manage are
> client-server apps that rely on downloaded stacks, so the server's not just
> deploying data, but the code and UI too.  Tons of fun for all - clients
> love seeing new features roll out without every having to install anything
> new.
>
> This type of distribution is technically sound on all platforms, and
> allowed on all but one:  iOS' SDK license explicitly forbids apps that
> download executable code.
>
> Apple may change their mind in the future, but for now this is something
> we can enjoy on all other devices on the planet, but we must make our iOS
> customers wait for a larger, more complicated complete install.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
>  ____________________________________________________________
>  [hidden email]        http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: Download and Run Stacks - Can Do On Mobile?

Richard Gaskin
Walt Brown wrote:

> Check out Novocard. It says it is HC like, and allows keeping and sharing
> stacks in the cloud, and runs on iOS.

Interesting.  Their web site says:

"Share your stacks with friends via email and Dropbox."

So either Apple has changed their earlier prohibition against apps that
run executable code downloaded from sources outside their app store, or
Apple's review process slipped up and let this in by mistake.

Anyone here seen a change to the iOS SDK terms?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Download and Run Stacks - Can Do On Mobile?

Charles E Buchwald
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
I've been working on a system that is basically a magazine reader. My iOS "player" contains all the code. It downloads a ZIP archive with an XML file that contains all the content, plus the media assets.

If I need to add functionality of any kind, I'll update the iOS player, even if it's only interactivity that I plan on using in the future.

This isn't quite as flexible as the kind of arrangement that Richard is talking about here, but it's still pretty clean and versatile. Of course it works on other platforms, too.

- Charles

On 13 Sep 2014, at 1:41 AM, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Brahmanathswami wrote:
>
> > I remember being "blown away" years ago in the late 90's when Scott
> > Raney had a little demo of
> >
> > go stack url "http://somedomain.com/somestack.mc"
> >
> > and it downloaded and ran the stack.
> ...
> > But, can we do this on Mobile?  can the app on your iPhone download
> > and run stacks?  I think not... What about Android?  Probably not
> > also... security constraints....
>
> For the last several months a majority of the projects I manage are client-server apps that rely on downloaded stacks, so the server's not just deploying data, but the code and UI too.  Tons of fun for all - clients love seeing new features roll out without every having to install anything new.
>
> This type of distribution is technically sound on all platforms, and allowed on all but one:  iOS' SDK license explicitly forbids apps that download executable code.
>
> Apple may change their mind in the future, but for now this is something we can enjoy on all other devices on the planet, but we must make our iOS customers wait for a larger, more complicated complete install.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
> ____________________________________________________________
> [hidden email]        http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

--
Charles E. Buchwald
CEO/Director General
Museografica Digital
http://digital.museografica.com

Mac OSX 10.9.4, LC 6.6.2 Commercial

LC Developer Tools: http://buchwald.ca

Email Notice: http://wp.me/P3aT4d-33


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Re: Download and Run Stacks - Can Do On Mobile?

Richard Gaskin
Charles E Buchwald wrote:
 > I've been working on a system that is basically a magazine reader. My
 > iOS "player" contains all the code. It downloads a ZIP archive with
 > an XML file that contains all the content, plus the media assets.
 >
 > If I need to add functionality of any kind, I'll update the iOS
 > player, even if it's only interactivity that I plan on using in the
 > future.
 >
 > This isn't quite as flexible as the kind of arrangement that Richard
 > is talking about here, but it's still pretty clean and versatile. Of
 > course it works on other platforms, too.

AFAIK*, it should be allowable to even use stack files as content
containers, provided they include no executable code.

This is a odd area though, since it's possible to set up a system of
behaviors in which one could submit an app with one set of
functionality, and later download behavior-driven stack files that
include no code but completely alter the functionality of the software.

I haven't read Apple's iOS SDK license since way back when they
backpedaled on the earlier provenance clause in SDK 4.0 (section 3.3.1).

It would be helpful if any of you who have read the current terms could
comment on the state of Apple's policies with regard to code and content
downloaded within the app outside of Apple's app store.

If they still prohibit sharing executable code, it would seem only a
matter of time before they discover that's what Novocard does, and ban
it from their app stores as they have with other apps they'd previously
approved.

But if they continue to allow Novocard after policy review, that should
mean we have the same privileges, opening the door to delivering some
pretty exciting apps with the same ease and flexibility we enjoy on all
other platforms.


* Disclaimer required by the State of California:  "I am not an
attorney.  If you need the services of an attorney you should consult a
professional licensed to practice law in your area."

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Download and Run Stacks - Can Do On Mobile?

Charles E Buchwald
I seriously considered using stack files. It would make a lot of things easier than writing and reading XML in ZIP files. But I couldn't risk having to rewrite everything if the use of stack files was rejected by Apple.

Even with my system of transferring XML, these illegal workarounds would be possible. I could code functionality that does not show up in any way in the submission to Apple, and then trigger it with what's in the XML content later. I don't see how Apple can catch every possibility, even if they review the scripts. As my father says, "Locks are for honest people."

- Charles

On 13 Sep 2014, at 12:07 PM, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> AFAIK*, it should be allowable to even use stack files as content containers, provided they include no executable code.
>
> This is a odd area though, since it's possible to set up a system of behaviors in which one could submit an app with one set of functionality, and later download behavior-driven stack files that include no code but completely alter the functionality of the software.

--
Charles E. Buchwald
CEO/Director General
Museografica Digital
http://digital.museografica.com

Mac OSX 10.9.4, LC 6.6.2 Commercial

LC Developer Tools: http://buchwald.ca

Email Notice: http://wp.me/P3aT4d-33


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Re: Download and Run Stacks - Can Do On Mobile?

Terence Heaford
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
I don’t have much interest in mobile development but I did download another app for my iPad that I believe works in the same way.

It was called techBasic   http://www.byteworks.us/Byte_Works/techBASIC.html

I believe Apple are OK with this sort of thing as long as all the files (stacks) are contained within the main app and do not have access to other parts of the iPad environment.

All the best

Terry


On 13 Sep 2014, at 16:56, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Interesting.  Their web site says:
>
> "Share your stacks with friends via email and Dropbox."
>
> So either Apple has changed their earlier prohibition against apps that run executable code downloaded from sources outside their app store, or Apple's review process slipped up and let this in by mistake.
>
> Anyone here seen a change to the iOS SDK terms?
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

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Re: Download and Run Stacks - Can Do On Mobile?

Mike Kerner
For non app store apps, there's no reason why you can't do this.

You can certainly make ample use of "do" statements in standlones on ios,
too.  I have been surprised at what I have been able to accomplish with
do's in ios apps.  It is a GREAT aid in debugging, for example.

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:50 AM, Terence Heaford <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I don’t have much interest in mobile development but I did download
> another app for my iPad that I believe works in the same way.
>
> It was called techBasic
> http://www.byteworks.us/Byte_Works/techBASIC.html
>
> I believe Apple are OK with this sort of thing as long as all the files
> (stacks) are contained within the main app and do not have access to other
> parts of the iPad environment.
>
> All the best
>
> Terry
>
>
> On 13 Sep 2014, at 16:56, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Interesting.  Their web site says:
> >
> > "Share your stacks with friends via email and Dropbox."
> >
> > So either Apple has changed their earlier prohibition against apps that
> run executable code downloaded from sources outside their app store, or
> Apple's review process slipped up and let this in by mistake.
> >
> > Anyone here seen a change to the iOS SDK terms?
> >
> > --
> > Richard Gaskin
> > Fourth World Systems
> > Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>



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