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Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
I have a stack containing an image and an SVG widget:

both contain the script:

on mouseDown
   grab me
end mouseDown

this means that end-users in standalones are able to drag around the
image, and when they
release their mouse button the image stays where they placed it.

This does NOT work with the widget.

Why?

Richmond.

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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
Let’s hope it’s a bug. I have not tried this yet, but I am about to embark on a development that allows a lot of dragging of SVG widgets. I hope someone who knows replies soon. If it’s not a bug, my whole resizing strategy will have to revert to a library of images with different resolutions with the appropriate sizes picked out at launch  time. Yuk.

Graham

> On 27 Feb 2017, at 13:36, Richmond via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have a stack containing an image and an SVG widget:
>
> both contain the script:
>
> on mouseDown
>  grab me
> end mouseDown
>
> this means that end-users in standalones are able to drag around the image, and when they
> release their mouse button the image stays where they placed it.
>
> This does NOT work with the widget.
>
> Why?
>
> Richmond.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
I found that messing around at work in my lunch hour on Linux 32-bit;
just tried the same thing on Mac OS with the same results.

Richmond.

On 2/27/17 2:43 pm, Graham Samuel via use-livecode wrote:

> Let’s hope it’s a bug. I have not tried this yet, but I am about to embark on a development that allows a lot of dragging of SVG widgets. I hope someone who knows replies soon. If it’s not a bug, my whole resizing strategy will have to revert to a library of images with different resolutions with the appropriate sizes picked out at launch  time. Yuk.
>
> Graham
>
>> On 27 Feb 2017, at 13:36, Richmond via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I have a stack containing an image and an SVG widget:
>>
>> both contain the script:
>>
>> on mouseDown
>>   grab me
>> end mouseDown
>>
>> this means that end-users in standalones are able to drag around the image, and when they
>> release their mouse button the image stays where they placed it.
>>
>> This does NOT work with the widget.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
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>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Talluto via use-livecode
This is not a bug because a widget is not an ordinary control:
Nearly all user interaction has to be allowed and scripted.
I implemented a kind of "grab" in some of my LC8-widget examples.

You can for example also Not focus on a widget from LC Script (that's
why the browser widget is 'robust' against commands like "click").

To the current handling of elementary mouse messages by widgets/LCB
see for example here, in the LC Builder forum

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=24369&hilit=mousedown

I don't know what's updated since then because the widget format changed
again with LC 9, so I wait first for a stable release before going on.


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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
I think that some people (like me and very possible Richmond) want to use SVG graphics as effortlessly-resized images. In this context, we don’t really care to think of them as widgets at all (I hope Richmond agrees!). What we want is a class of images which are implemented as SVGs but which function in the same way as other images with respect to mouse messages etc.

Does this make sense or have I entirely got the wrong end of the stick (wouldn’t surprise me)?

Looking at that very interesting thread in the forum, I feel less comfortable than I ever have done about the development trajectory of LiveCode. I mean, extensions (like widgets) are fine, but what is not so fine IMHO is that ‘legacy’ ways of working should be deprecated when they have served developers so well for so long. OTOH I am getting old, so maybe that’s why I feel disturbed about it. You may see GOM (Grumpy Old Man) entering into the alphabet soup.


Graham

> On 28 Feb 2017, at 04:10, hh via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is not a bug because a widget is not an ordinary control:
> Nearly all user interaction has to be allowed and scripted.
> I implemented a kind of "grab" in some of my LC8-widget examples.
>
> You can for example also Not focus on a widget from LC Script (that's
> why the browser widget is 'robust' against commands like "click").
>
> To the current handling of elementary mouse messages by widgets/LCB
> see for example here, in the LC Builder forum
>
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=24369&hilit=mousedown
>
> I don't know what's updated since then because the widget format changed
> again with LC 9, so I wait first for a stable release before going on.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
I have mentioned several times how I would like SVG import to be as
simple as PNG import,
and all handling subsequently as simple as other image formats. I
suspect the price of being able
to rotate SVG images (set the angle) in a way which means they don't go
"all fuzzy" is that they
cannot be handled like other images.

So . . . can any one tell me how to effect a "grab" (which is the same
whether with a PNG image, a button
or a graphic object) with a widget?

Very Possible Richmond.

On 2/28/17 2:41 pm, Graham Samuel via use-livecode wrote:

> I think that some people (like me and very possible Richmond) want to use SVG graphics as effortlessly-resized images. In this context, we don’t really care to think of them as widgets at all (I hope Richmond agrees!). What we want is a class of images which are implemented as SVGs but which function in the same way as other images with respect to mouse messages etc.
>
> Does this make sense or have I entirely got the wrong end of the stick (wouldn’t surprise me)?
>
> Looking at that very interesting thread in the forum, I feel less comfortable than I ever have done about the development trajectory of LiveCode. I mean, extensions (like widgets) are fine, but what is not so fine IMHO is that ‘legacy’ ways of working should be deprecated when they have served developers so well for so long. OTOH I am getting old, so maybe that’s why I feel disturbed about it. You may see GOM (Grumpy Old Man) entering into the alphabet soup.
>
>
> Graham
>
>> On 28 Feb 2017, at 04:10, hh via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> This is not a bug because a widget is not an ordinary control:
>> Nearly all user interaction has to be allowed and scripted.
>> I implemented a kind of "grab" in some of my LC8-widget examples.
>>
>> You can for example also Not focus on a widget from LC Script (that's
>> why the browser widget is 'robust' against commands like "click").
>>
>> To the current handling of elementary mouse messages by widgets/LCB
>> see for example here, in the LC Builder forum
>>
>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=24369&hilit=mousedown
>>
>> I don't know what's updated since then because the widget format changed
>> again with LC 9, so I wait first for a stable release before going on.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Talluto via use-livecode
You are not wrong.

SVG *is* an image and ideally, should behave like any graphic object.  

Also, for the sake of LC future: These are the kind of things that make newbies "run away" from the product.. because they expect things to work, but they don't, the frustration level can be severe an image is an image is an image, whether it is png, bitmap, jpg or svg, the fact that is is a "widget" is secondary to the use case.

Enter an enhancement request.

 

On 2/28/17, 2:41 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Graham Samuel via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    I think that some people (like me and very possible Richmond) want to use SVG graphics as effortlessly-resized images. In this context, we don’t really care to think of them as widgets at all (I hope Richmond agrees!). What we want is a class of images which are implemented as SVGs but which function in the same way as other images with respect to mouse messages etc.
   
    Does this make sense or have I entirely got the wrong end of the stick (wouldn’t surprise me)?
   
   

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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
oh contraire. Not all images are the same. Support for each kind of image has to be implemented. If the industry developed a new kind of image, LC would be faced with incorporating that format.

Bob S


> On Feb 28, 2017, at 07:14 , Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> an image is an image is an image, whether it is png, bitmap, jpg or svg, the fact that is is a "widget" is secondary to the use case.
>
> Enter an enhancement request.


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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Talluto via use-livecode
I would really love to see LC’s image handling improved, not just for SVG, although that would be a huge bonus, but for raster images too. I would happily put money into crowdfunding for this, provided the promises were kept of course.

Anyway, this is probably not the answer you are looking for, but one workaround until this problem is addressed, is to group your widget and then add your grab code to the group script.

It’s my understanding that widgets are not high on the priority list for bug fixes, so a workaround may be your only option if you need this anytime soon.

Paul

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 4:58 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So . . . can any one tell me how to effect a "grab" (which is the same whether with a PNG image, a button
> or a graphic object) with a widget?

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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Talluto via use-livecode
Sounds like the widget needs to be tweaked to allow for dragging. Its over
my head, if someone with a clue could do the modification and explain it,
I'd really appreciate the lesson.

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 5:36 AM, Richmond via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a stack containing an image and an SVG widget:
>
> both contain the script:
>
> on mouseDown
>   grab me
> end mouseDown
>
> this means that end-users in standalones are able to drag around the
> image, and when they
> release their mouse button the image stays where they placed it.
>
> This does NOT work with the widget.
>
> Why?
>
> Richmond.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
I tried grouping my SVG widget, and that allows me to drag the group:

on mouseDown
    grab me
end mouseDown

HOWEVER, when I wish to move the SVG widget itself it vanishs as it
moves outwith
the boundaries of the group.

NOW: whether I can group my "Turtle" SVG widget and then have my Turtle
Graphics code move
the group and rotate the widget within the group remains to be seen . . .

Yup, that works!

Richmond.

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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
I’ve not messed with widgets at all… but, with graphics in this situation I would either put

on mouseDown
     grab me
end mouseDown

in the group script…

OR put

on mouseDown
     grab the owner of me
end mouseDown

in the script of each object within the group.

be well,
randy

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I tried grouping my SVG widget, and that allows me to drag the group:
>
> on mouseDown
>   grab me
> end mouseDown
>
> HOWEVER, when I wish to move the SVG widget itself it vanishs as it moves outwith
> the boundaries of the group.
>
> NOW: whether I can group my "Turtle" SVG widget and then have my Turtle Graphics code move
> the group and rotate the widget within the group remains to be seen . . .
>
> Yup, that works!
>
> Richmond.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Talluto via use-livecode
> Richmond wrote:
> So . . . can any one tell me how to effect a "grab" (which is the same
> whether with a PNG image, a button or a graphic object) with a widget?

There is one way that is acting similar to a "grab": Put the following
into your card's script. Works for widgets and any 'usual' control that
doesn't block mouseDown.

on mouseDown
   if the short name of the target is "svgTURTLE" then # <-- use any filter
      put the mouseControl into mC; put false into mUp
      put the clickH - item 1 of the loc of mC into dx
      put the clickV - item 2 of the loc of mC into dy
      repeat until the mouse is up
         set loc of mC to (the mouseH-dx,the mouseV-dy)
      end repeat
    end if
end mouseDown

Using a "send in time" is not possible for that, because the click is then
passed 'in between' to the control/widget. You sadly have to poll the mouse.


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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
Thank you for all the suggestions. I wnent for grouping the widget and
the dragging the group.

I have used this in the most recent version of my Turtle Graphics stack
that I uploaded about 30 minutes ago:

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28898

However, the inconsistency between the way one has to handle SVG images and
their import (crude and clunky, monochrome) and the way one imports and
handles all other image formats that LiveCode imports is a problem that
won't
go away with a few work arounds.

Richmond.

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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Talluto via use-livecode
> > On Feb 28, 2017, at 07:14 , Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > an image is an image is an image, whether it is png, bitmap, jpg or svg, the fact that is is a "widget" is secondary to the use case.
>
> sez Bob Sneidar <[hidden email]>:
> au contraire. Not all images are the same. Support for each kind of image has to be implemented. If the industry developed a new kind of image, LC would be faced with incorporating that format.

It's true that *under the hood*, LC must handle each distinct 'flavor' of image differently. But why should *the user* be concerned about whether a given image is vector or raster or RLE or what?

Consider: Numbers can be signed, unsigned, integer, or real, and the engine's internal workings must handle each of those 'flavors' of number differently. But in spite of those internal differences, *the expression "VarX + VarY" ALWAYS just works, REGARDLESS of which flavors of number VarX and VarY happen to be*.

As far as *the user* is concerned, a number is a number is a number, and it *doesn't matter* whether a number happens to be real or integer or what. Why can't an image be an image be an image, *regardless* of whether an image happens to be JPG or bitmap or what?

   
"Bewitched" + "Charlie's Angels" - Charlie = "At Arm's Length"
   
Read the webcomic at [ http://www.atarmslength.net ]!
   
If you like "At Arm's Length", support it at [ http://www.patreon.com/DarkwingDude ].

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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
Indeed:

On 2/28/17 11:27 pm, Quentin Long via use-livecode wrote:
>>> On Feb 28, 2017, at 07:14 , Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> an image is an image is an image, whether it is png, bitmap, jpg or svg, the fact that is is a "widget" is secondary to the use case.
>> sez Bob Sneidar <[hidden email]>:
>> au contraire. Not all images are the same. Support for each kind of image has to be implemented. If the industry developed a new kind of image, LC would be faced with incorporating that format.
> It's true that *under the hood*, LC must handle each distinct 'flavor' of image differently. But why should *the user* be concerned about whether a given image is vector or raster or RLE or what?
>
> Consider: Numbers can be signed, unsigned, integer, or real, and the engine's internal workings must handle each of those 'flavors' of number differently. But in spite of those internal differences, *the expression "VarX + VarY" ALWAYS just works, REGARDLESS of which flavors of number VarX and VarY happen to be*.

Surely one of the points of LiveCode is to "protect" people who want to
use a RAD tool from the "fiddly
bits". Ater all if we wanted to concern ourselves with the filldy bits
we'd all be "out there" learning
C++, C#, Turbo-Whatsit and all the other programming languages that I,
at least, have, thanks to LiveCode
so successfully managed to avoid for the last 15 years.

Now I am aware that LiveCode is in the process of trying to get itself
taken seriously by the
hairy-chested programming brigade (real men don't do object-based
stuff), but if that is at the price
of losing touch with their installed base of "unprogrammers" (and only
"unprogrammers" in the sense
of being people who aren't high as kites on command-line only
programming) as well as the very valuable niche they fill between the
blockly community and the C++ community I belive they are making a big
mistake.

I couldn't tell you about the difference between big-Endian and
little-Endian programming any more than
I could tell you about Michael Flatly's shoe size (what made me think of
that example? I wonder). But I have
used LiveCode to produce quite a lot of useful stuff; and with the
advent of SVG import and a lot of the
other exciting stuff that is on its way in LC 9 I hope to produce a lot
more.

Nobody bothered to point out that if one opens an SVG image with a
text-editor one can transfer its code into the prefs palette of the SVG
widget; and I suspect they didn't because they knew full well that that
seriously sucks as a way to import an image!
>
> As far as *the user* is concerned, a number is a number is a number, and it *doesn't matter* whether a number happens to be real or integer or what. Why can't an image be an image be an image, *regardless* of whether an image happens to be JPG or bitmap or what?
>
>

The main stregth of Livecode is that one can go on believing in the
illusion of the GUI.

Messing around with text-editors and images spoils that completely.

Richmond.
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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
As to that, everything you do on a computer, INCLUDING typing code, is an illusion. A DOS prompt is an illusion in it's own right. So is a light bulb on a panel that was turned on by some signal from a computing device. All a computer can really do is move numbers from one register to another in a predefined way. By calling the LC GUI an illusion, you are simply removing yourself one more layer from the last illusion.

Now in relation to built-in support of different formats, one could say the same thing about a web browser, that it should "just work with any kind of image". Or font type then. Or video format. Or encryption algorithm. Or anything really. The only reason modern web browsers evolved in the first place was because new formats of all kinds of things became really popular or beneficial to the end product in some way.

If anyone can demonstrate that thousands of potential developers turned away from LC because the support for SVG graphics, or the browser object, or anything in LC, was not up to par, they would have a good point. Better yet if they can produce some real numbers about all the developers who really want to begin programming in Livecode, and are just waiting for more robust support of some particular object, I'm sure they would garner serious interest. If not, then bringing up all the programmers who have "turned away" is frankly, a fallacy.

Myself, I get a little nervous when some on the list begin to criticize RunRev for not supporting some thing or not in some way expected. It feels a lot like eating dinner with my mother who used to take us to high end French restaurants just so that she could complain to the chef that something wasn't done just so.

I could be mischaracterizing the posts though. I apologise if I am overstating my case. I think discussions about possible bugs, or new features or better ways of doing things are constructive. Criticism of the amazing devs at RunRev when something does not work exactly as we like, is not.



Bob S


> On Feb 28, 2017, at 14:28 , Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The main stregth of Livecode is that one can go on believing in the illusion of the GUI.
>
> Messing around with text-editors and images spoils that completely.
>
> Richmond.


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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Talluto via use-livecode
@ Bob:

Right: not meant to criticize, but hopefully constructive observation about a specific issue… that's how we evolve, right?

 "just sayin"  that to the eyes of the user  (as Quentin said) a widget is a visual object/control on screen, like any other, the expectation that they can enter

on mousedown; grab me; end mousedown

will be very high.

So this is a "gotcha" for newbies -- and I don't mean "kids" but experienced graphic designers who work all day in a visual environment: (a target market that IMHO opinion could be huge were LC ramp up on the visual side)  and now, in the new IDE(s), like HYPE from Tumult (just installed yesterday.. amazing…)

… Solutions could be simple as adding to the dictionary a disclaimer "SVG objects are drawn arithmetically; as such they do not behave like a block of rasterized pixels. In order to drag an SVG widget you need to group it first and then add the grab me to the group."  Or like Mike said  "fix it"

Some things are fundamental in the UI/UX and dragging objects *any* object is one of them, and has been from the day we mouse down on an icon on the desktop and dragged it into the trash.

Just my two rain drops from Kauai where a storm is moving in, could be as much as 10 inches in 10 hours tonite. Yikes!

On 2/28/17, 5:32 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    oh contraire. Not all images are the same. Support for each kind of image has to be implemented. If the industry developed a new kind of image, LC would be faced with incorporating that format.
   
    Bob S
   
   

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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Talluto via use-livecode

> On 1 Mar 2017, at 12:08 am, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As to that, everything you do on a computer, INCLUDING typing code, is an illusion. A DOS prompt is an illusion in it's own right. So is a light bulb on a panel that was turned on by some signal from a computing device. All a computer can really do is move numbers from one register to another in a predefined way. By calling the LC GUI an illusion, you are simply removing yourself one more layer from the last illusion.


So…. there is no spoon?

Oh Wow!  Look at that!  My code (and this email) is writing itself when I just tilt my head and look meaningfully at the screen.

Couldn’t resist.

Best Wishes,
David Glasgow

 <http://www.i-psych.co.uk/> <https://twitter.com/iPsychApps>

 <https://twitter.com/iPsychApps> <http://uk.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow>
 <http://uk.linkedin.com/in/davidvglasgow>
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Re: Dragging widgets

Mark Talluto via use-livecode
Read the post I was responding to. Richmond seemed to be making the point that the GUI of Livecode presented an illusion to the end user that they were working with a "real" app. As I said, I may have misconstrued his meaning, but that was what it seemed like he was saying.

Bob S


> On Mar 1, 2017, at 06:39 , David V Glasgow via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So…. there is no spoon?
>
> Oh Wow!  Look at that!  My code (and this email) is writing itself when I just tilt my head and look meaningfully at the screen.
>
> Couldn’t resist.
>
> Best Wishes,
> David Glasgow

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