Features and shortcomings of html5

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Features and shortcomings of html5

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
I've been asked if I can convert a stack to HTML5, which I haven't
worked with yet. I'd like to know, in general, what can be done and what
can't. What are the limitations?

The examples I've seen are mostly basic, usually just a one-card stack
with image or graphic manipulations. I'm also aware of the fairly long
initial load time, though I guess that's been cut back a bit. The stack
I will be working with will require many cards, navigation, and possibly
changing stacks (probably in the same window.)

What else would I need to consider?

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Features and shortcomings of html5

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
> JLG wrote:
> The examples I've seen are mostly basic, usually just a one-card stack with image
> or graphic manipulations.

What examples if not mine (and the few I link to) did you see? Would be very glad to know
some more.

> The stack  I will be working with will require many cards, navigation, and possibly
> changing stacks (probably in the same window.)

So you didn't even try the basic ones for that. There is also ...

1. ... "TerminalZero". Compile it with the version you want and you have a simple tool
to test what works and what doesn't work in that version.
2. ... "Navigation" for card deletion/creating example (with use of several fonts).
3. ... "Video-Fun" for using sound/video.
4. ... "Do as JavaScript" in case your methods are too slow for HTML5 or not yet implemented.
5. ... "FetchURL" for simplest networking.
6. ... "Oriented Text" for testing how an embedded widget works.

If the probably in "probably in the same window" is not 100% then you may be lost.

Most of the examples are from the LC 8.0 times where HTML5 deployment was "very"
experimental (what makes them "basic"). They especially show now, to which part the speed
improvement is due to the improved browser you use and not to LC.
Currently Safari is in general best, Firefox and Chrome are next, then Opera (which is in
turn best with special things).
A time-execution factor of up to 10 between them is not unusual. And Internet explorer and
Edge don't work at all with HTML5 standalones.

> What else would I need to consider?

1. Start with searching LiveCode-Quality-Control-Center for "HTML5".
2. Start with using a card full of buttons, text fields and other controls you need.
3. Measure the execution time of your core routines in several browsers/OSes.

Then optimize or work around-
Hope you'll share soon your great collection of advanced (working) HTML5 examples.


> JLG wrote:
> I've been asked if I can convert a stack to HTML5, which I haven't
> worked with yet. I'd like to know, in general, what can be done and what
> can't. What are the limitations?
>
> The examples I've seen are mostly basic, usually just a one-card stack
> with image or graphic manipulations. I'm also aware of the fairly long
> initial load time, though I guess that's been cut back a bit. The stack
> I will be working with will require many cards, navigation, and possibly
> changing stacks (probably in the same window.)
>
> What else would I need to consider?


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Re: Features and shortcomings of html5

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Clarence Martin via use-livecode
Forgot to say:

**** There are a LOT of improvements in the HTML5 standalone builder from
LC 8.0.2 to 9.0.0-dp10. ****
It is especially Ian who does a good job in that field.

But it is also a lot of work to recompile older standalones and to
remove work arounds that are no longer needed.
Probably it is best to remove all old examples.

It is the same with widgets. LCB changes are very sparsely documented.
Instead of being angry that 'old widgets' don't run any more just remove them.
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Re: Features and shortcomings of html5

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Clarence Martin via use-livecode
I've converted a couple of interactive simulations to HTML5 and they worked and performed surprisingly well (once I'd removed and coded around a few wait statements). Multiple cards are fine but I haven't tried switching between stacks. Text display isn't that great out of the box but that shouldn't be too much of an issue unless you have pretty strict formatting requirements (you can load fonts but I'm not sure whether it's worth the trouble). The biggest drawback for me has been around networking but that seems to have been substantially improved in recent releases (I haven't had a chance to explore these yet).

It's certainly worth a quick try of exporting an existing stack with LC community and seeing what works and what doesn't to get a sense of whether a full on conversion is warranted.

Terry...

On 21/02/2018 10:25 am, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    I've been asked if I can convert a stack to HTML5, which I haven't
    worked with yet. I'd like to know, in general, what can be done and what
    can't. What are the limitations?
   
    The examples I've seen are mostly basic, usually just a one-card stack
    with image or graphic manipulations. I'm also aware of the fairly long
    initial load time, though I guess that's been cut back a bit. The stack
    I will be working with will require many cards, navigation, and possibly
    changing stacks (probably in the same window.)
   
    What else would I need to consider?
   
    --
    Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
    HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
   
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    [hidden email]
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
   
   

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Re: Features and shortcomings of html5

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Clarence Martin via use-livecode
On 2/20/18 8:09 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:

> What examples if not mine (and the few I link to) did you see? Would be very glad to know
> some more.

I found some by Bernd in the forums that demonstrated a few different
techniques.

> So you didn't even try the basic ones for that.

I tried a couple of yours when you announced them here a long time ago,
but I couldn't find them today when I searched the forum. I had you in
mind specifically but couldn't find a link to the download page.

I was on Skype with the client at the time and wasn't able to do an
extensive search, even though I did look for your name. My client looked
at Bernd's work while we talked and liked it.

  There is also ...

>
> 1. ... "TerminalZero". Compile it with the version you want and you have a simple tool
> to test what works and what doesn't work in that version.
> 2. ... "Navigation" for card deletion/creating example (with use of several fonts).
> 3. ... "Video-Fun" for using sound/video.
> 4. ... "Do as JavaScript" in case your methods are too slow for HTML5 or not yet implemented.
> 5. ... "FetchURL" for simplest networking.
> 6. ... "Oriented Text" for testing how an embedded widget works.
>
> If the probably in "probably in the same window" is not 100% then you may be lost.

Thanks, that gives me some idea and TerminalZero sounds interesting, but
I still need a web link. I don't know yet exactly what we will need, nor
does my client who will be re-selling to someone else. She needs to get
more info about the customization we'd require, which is why I couldn't
ask more specific questions yet.

>
> Most of the examples are from the LC 8.0 times where HTML5 deployment was "very"
> experimental (what makes them "basic"). They especially show now, to which part the speed
> improvement is due to the improved browser you use and not to LC.
> Currently Safari is in general best, Firefox and Chrome are next, then Opera (which is in
> turn best with special things).
> A time-execution factor of up to 10 between them is not unusual. And Internet explorer and
> Edge don't work at all with HTML5 standalones.

That's an important limitation.

>
>> What else would I need to consider?
>
> 1. Start with searching LiveCode-Quality-Control-Center for "HTML5".
> 2. Start with using a card full of buttons, text fields and other controls you need.
> 3. Measure the execution time of your core routines in several browsers/OSes.
>
> Then optimize or work around-
> Hope you'll share soon your great collection of advanced (working) HTML5 examples.

We are in the exploratory phase right now but if the project does go
through, you will be able to see the finished product at the customer
web site. For now I just need some general guidelines to help my client
steer her customer in the right direction.

Thanks for your thoughts, hh.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Features and shortcomings of html5

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Clarence Martin via use-livecode
Thanks Terry, that's helpful. I get the feeling that we can do almost
anything internal to LC's engine, but things that require a call out to
the OS are harder.

I did a quick conversion of a simple stack way back when HTML5 was first
released and got pretty good results, but the load time was murderous
and I dropped it as unusable until it got faster. I haven't tried it
since that was improved, maybe it's okay now.

The deal is, my client and I have fast internet connections and we're
willing to wait a bit for the stack to load, but if this project goes
through it could be used by anyone including, as she told me, "by people
in Nairobi" who may be on slow connections or even cell data.

We're also considering writing mobile apps instead, but her customer is
hoping to integrate directly with their web site.

At any rate, thanks for the feedback.

On 2/20/18 9:05 PM, Terry Judd via use-livecode wrote:

> I've converted a couple of interactive simulations to HTML5 and they worked and performed surprisingly well (once I'd removed and coded around a few wait statements). Multiple cards are fine but I haven't tried switching between stacks. Text display isn't that great out of the box but that shouldn't be too much of an issue unless you have pretty strict formatting requirements (you can load fonts but I'm not sure whether it's worth the trouble). The biggest drawback for me has been around networking but that seems to have been substantially improved in recent releases (I haven't had a chance to explore these yet).
>
> It's certainly worth a quick try of exporting an existing stack with LC community and seeing what works and what doesn't to get a sense of whether a full on conversion is warranted.
>
> Terry...
>
> On 21/02/2018 10:25 am, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>      I've been asked if I can convert a stack to HTML5, which I haven't
>      worked with yet. I'd like to know, in general, what can be done and what
>      can't. What are the limitations?
>      
>      The examples I've seen are mostly basic, usually just a one-card stack
>      with image or graphic manipulations. I'm also aware of the fairly long
>      initial load time, though I guess that's been cut back a bit. The stack
>      I will be working with will require many cards, navigation, and possibly
>      changing stacks (probably in the same window.)
>      
>      What else would I need to consider?
>      
>      --
>      Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
>      HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>      
>      _______________________________________________
>      use-livecode mailing list
>      [hidden email]
>      Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>      http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>      
>      
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Features and shortcomings of html5

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
Yeah, you are still in for a bit of a wait for the initial load to complete but that doesn't seem to have deterred my users yet (they were pre-warned about the delay), even those who were accessing the sims from outside the university network. Not sure that I'd want to attempt to deliver it over anything less than a 4G mobile network though, and if the cost of data use is an issue for the end user then...

Terry

On 21/02/2018 3:46 pm, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    Thanks Terry, that's helpful. I get the feeling that we can do almost
    anything internal to LC's engine, but things that require a call out to
    the OS are harder.
   
    I did a quick conversion of a simple stack way back when HTML5 was first
    released and got pretty good results, but the load time was murderous
    and I dropped it as unusable until it got faster. I haven't tried it
    since that was improved, maybe it's okay now.
   
    The deal is, my client and I have fast internet connections and we're
    willing to wait a bit for the stack to load, but if this project goes
    through it could be used by anyone including, as she told me, "by people
    in Nairobi" who may be on slow connections or even cell data.
   
    We're also considering writing mobile apps instead, but her customer is
    hoping to integrate directly with their web site.
   
    At any rate, thanks for the feedback.
   
    On 2/20/18 9:05 PM, Terry Judd via use-livecode wrote:
    > I've converted a couple of interactive simulations to HTML5 and they worked and performed surprisingly well (once I'd removed and coded around a few wait statements). Multiple cards are fine but I haven't tried switching between stacks. Text display isn't that great out of the box but that shouldn't be too much of an issue unless you have pretty strict formatting requirements (you can load fonts but I'm not sure whether it's worth the trouble). The biggest drawback for me has been around networking but that seems to have been substantially improved in recent releases (I haven't had a chance to explore these yet).
    >
    > It's certainly worth a quick try of exporting an existing stack with LC community and seeing what works and what doesn't to get a sense of whether a full on conversion is warranted.
    >
    > Terry...
    >
    > On 21/02/2018 10:25 am, "use-livecode on behalf of J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
    >
    >      I've been asked if I can convert a stack to HTML5, which I haven't
    >      worked with yet. I'd like to know, in general, what can be done and what
    >      can't. What are the limitations?
    >      
    >      The examples I've seen are mostly basic, usually just a one-card stack
    >      with image or graphic manipulations. I'm also aware of the fairly long
    >      initial load time, though I guess that's been cut back a bit. The stack
    >      I will be working with will require many cards, navigation, and possibly
    >      changing stacks (probably in the same window.)
    >      
    >      What else would I need to consider?
    >      
    >      --
    >      Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
    >      HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
    >      
    >      _______________________________________________
    >      use-livecode mailing list
    >      [hidden email]
    >      Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    >      http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    >      
    >      
    >
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    > use-livecode mailing list
    > [hidden email]
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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    >
   
   
    --
    Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
    HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
   
   
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    use-livecode mailing list
    [hidden email]
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: Features and shortcomings of html5

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Clarence Martin via use-livecode
The laoding delay is very much dependent on how you configure your
server. If the server is optimized I have here with Safari < 9 secs
for the first load and < 3 secs for a reload, using the server of the
first link below.

The standalones mentioned are here [EU]
    http://hyperhh.org/html5/index-large.html
or here (same content) [US]
    http://hh.on-rev.com/html5/index-large.html

And here is an info: Forums/HTML5/Successful_test

Download right now what you need, because I'll remove soon all those
unneeded "basic experiments" (and, that's my method, trash them here
also).

p.s. You will have no luck running more than a primitive demo on mobile,
no matter the connection speed.

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Re: Features and shortcomings of html5

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Clarence Martin via use-livecode
So, here is one thing you have to keep in mind:
The same-origin-policy for networking.

http://hyperhh.de/html5/testFetch-9.0.0-dp-7X.html
     works with loading images but this one fails:
http://hyperhh.org/html5/testFetch-9.0.0-dp-7X.html

There is no other difference but using .org instead of .de
Both point to identic files (files to load have relative paths).


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Re: Features and shortcomings of html5

Clarence Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Clarence Martin via use-livecode
Thanks for the links, I'll keep them. The inability to use a mobile
browser is a deal-breaker. That's exactly what I needed to know to
decide the path forward, it's a significant limitation.

On 2/20/18 11:16 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:

> The laoding delay is very much dependent on how you configure your
> server. If the server is optimized I have here with Safari < 9 secs
> for the first load and < 3 secs for a reload, using the server of the
> first link below.
>
> The standalones mentioned are here [EU]
>      http://hyperhh.org/html5/index-large.html
> or here (same content) [US]
>      http://hh.on-rev.com/html5/index-large.html
>
> And here is an info: Forums/HTML5/Successful_test
>
> Download right now what you need, because I'll remove soon all those
> unneeded "basic experiments" (and, that's my method, trash them here
> also).
>
> p.s. You will have no luck running more than a primitive demo on mobile,
> no matter the connection speed.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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