Foundation Framework

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JB
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Foundation Framework

JB
The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation
Framework so you can use its power inside of a
stack instead of writing extensions.  It will be a
little slower than an extension but in many cases
the loss of speed will not be noticeable.

To access all the power of foundation you need to
know objective-c which is simply improvements
to the C language.

Everything in the C language is a function.  Livecode
was written in C++ so learning it will help you write
functions in Livecodde.

Here are two links that will help you;

1.  One of the best tutorials for C loaded with
examples.

http://fresh2refresh.com/c-programming/


2.  Some of the best examples I have seen for
 accessing the power of Foundation.

https://ios.eezytutorials.com/nsarray-by-example.php#.WGr_jrGZMlU


Happy New Year and Happy Programming!

JB


1



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Re: Foundation Framework

hh
> JB wrote:
> The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation
> Framework so you can use its power inside of a
> stack instead of writing extensions.  It will be a
> little slower than an extension but in many cases
> the loss of speed will not be noticeable.

JB,

are you speaking about the future, that is LCB via FFI, or
do you already have a non-trivial example for that (and are
willing to share it)?

hh

p.s. Your 'tutorial' links are fine, thanks.

> JB sundown at pacifier.com wrote:
>

> The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation
> Framework so you can use its power inside of a
> stack instead of writing extensions.  It will be a
> little slower than an extension but in many cases
> the loss of speed will not be noticeable.
>
> To access all the power of foundation you need to
> know objective-c which is simply improvements
> to the C language.
>
> Everything in the C language is a function.  Livecode
> was written in C++ so learning it will help you write
> functions in Livecodde.
>
> Here are two links that will help you;
> 1.  One of the best tutorials for C loaded with
> examples.
> http://fresh2refresh.com/c-programming/
> 2.  Some of the best examples I have seen for
>  accessing the power of Foundation.
> https://ios.eezytutorials.com/nsarray-by-example.php#.WGr_jrGZMlU
> Happy New Year and Happy Programming!
> JB



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Re: Foundation Framework

JB
Hi,
Over a year ago they said Foundation was
imported and you can even use pointers.  I
don’t have anymore info about it.

Learning C will help even if for some reason
they are having problems with Foundation.

I am glad the links work.  One day links are
there and another they are gone so if you
value the code save it while you can.

JB



> On Jan 3, 2017, at 3:09 AM, hh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> JB wrote:
>> The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation
>> Framework so you can use its power inside of a
>> stack instead of writing extensions.  It will be a
>> little slower than an extension but in many cases
>> the loss of speed will not be noticeable.
>
> JB,
>
> are you speaking about the future, that is LCB via FFI, or
> do you already have a non-trivial example for that (and are
> willing to share it)?
>
> hh
>
> p.s. Your 'tutorial' links are fine, thanks.
>
>> JB sundown at pacifier.com wrote:
>>
>
>> The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation
>> Framework so you can use its power inside of a
>> stack instead of writing extensions.  It will be a
>> little slower than an extension but in many cases
>> the loss of speed will not be noticeable.
>>
>> To access all the power of foundation you need to
>> know objective-c which is simply improvements
>> to the C language.
>>
>> Everything in the C language is a function.  Livecode
>> was written in C++ so learning it will help you write
>> functions in Livecodde.
>>
>> Here are two links that will help you;
>> 1.  One of the best tutorials for C loaded with
>> examples.
>> http://fresh2refresh.com/c-programming/
>> 2.  Some of the best examples I have seen for
>> accessing the power of Foundation.
>> https://ios.eezytutorials.com/nsarray-by-example.php#.WGr_jrGZMlU
>> Happy New Year and Happy Programming!
>> JB
>
>
>
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Re: Foundation Framework

hh
In reply to this post by JB
> JB wrote:
> Over a year ago they said Foundation was
> imported and you can even use pointers. I
> don’t have anymore info about it.

JB,
thanks. A simple example of an already available foundation
function and a link to a header listing others is here:
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=147232#p147232
(explained there by peter-b, for use in a widget's code)

But that's probably the very beginning only of what you have
in mind.

> JB wrote:
> Learning C will help even if for some reason they are having
> problems with Foundation.

Most of us hope that having a good example for copy and paste
will be enough for "similar usages" with small changes. Avoiding
C/C++/objC or java may be, besides LC's cross-platform property,
for many people a main reason to use LiveCode.

It will be an important community contribution by people like
you to give us such typical good examples!

hh


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Re: Foundation Framework

JB
I did what I could to provide some good
examples to help people learn.

If you are not making any mistakes then
you are not learning anything.

If you want it all prepackaged ask the
Livecode team to use the samples in
widgets.  They will do what they see
is financially beneficial so your money
speaks when it comes to changes.

JB


> On Jan 3, 2017, at 5:16 AM, hh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> JB wrote:
>> Over a year ago they said Foundation was
>> imported and you can even use pointers. I
>> don’t have anymore info about it.
>
> JB,
> thanks. A simple example of an already available foundation
> function and a link to a header listing others is here:
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=147232#p147232
> (explained there by peter-b, for use in a widget's code)
>
> But that's probably the very beginning only of what you have
> in mind.
>
>> JB wrote:
>> Learning C will help even if for some reason they are having
>> problems with Foundation.
>
> Most of us hope that having a good example for copy and paste
> will be enough for "similar usages" with small changes. Avoiding
> C/C++/objC or java may be, besides LC's cross-platform property,
> for many people a main reason to use LiveCode.
>
> It will be an important community contribution by people like
> you to give us such typical good examples!
>
> hh
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Foundation Framework

Bob Sneidar-2

On Jan 3, 2017, at 07:10 , JB <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

I did what I could to provide some good
examples to help people learn.

If you are not making any mistakes then
you are not learning anything.

If you are not making any mistakes, it's likely that you don't NEED to learn anything else. :-)

Bob S


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Re: Foundation Framework

hh
In reply to this post by JB
>> JB wrote:
>> The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation
>> Framework so you can use its power inside of a
>> stack instead of writing extensions.

> JB wrote also:
> If you want it all prepackaged ask the
> Livecode team to use the samples in
> widgets.  They will do what they see
> is financially beneficial so your money
> speaks when it comes to changes.

You certainly don't mean people should learn C/C++/ObjC
and not use LC any more. So I really don't understand
the purpose of this thread:

Foundation Framework is "prepackaged" code, also LCB.
So could you please give us one simple example of what
you mean with "you can use its power inside of a stack
instead of writing extensions" (with the help of C/C++/ObjC
only).

Thanks.

> JB wrote:
> I did what I could to provide some good
> examples to help people learn.
>
> If you are not making any mistakes then
> you are not learning anything.
>
> If you want it all prepackaged ask the
> Livecode team to use the samples in
> widgets.  They will do what they see
> is financially beneficial so your money
> speaks when it comes to changes.
>
> JB
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 2017, at 5:16 AM, hh <hh at hyperhh.de> wrote:
> >
> >> JB wrote:
> >> Over a year ago they said Foundation was
> >> imported and you can even use pointers. I
> >> don’t have anymore info about it.
> >
> > JB,
> > thanks. A simple example of an already available foundation
> > function and a link to a header listing others is here:
> > http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=147232#p147232
> > (explained there by peter-b, for use in a widget's code)
> >
> > But that's probably the very beginning only of what you have
> > in mind.
> >
> >> JB wrote:
> >> Learning C will help even if for some reason they are having
> >> problems with Foundation.
> >
> > Most of us hope that having a good example for copy and paste
> > will be enough for "similar usages" with small changes. Avoiding
> > C/C++/objC or java may be, besides LC's cross-platform property,
> > for many people a main reason to use LiveCode.
> >
> > It will be an important community contribution by people like
> > you to give us such typical good examples!
> >
> > hh


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Re: Foundation Framework

Richmond Mathewson-2
This whole thing looks like an awful sort of confession of "F".

If LiveCode is what it should be (a comprehensive programming package)
it should not have to
rely on users' knowledge of other programming languages to achieve some
of the things it should
be perfectly capable of doing inwith itself.

I, for one, have ONLY worked with LiveCode and its predecessors
(HyperCard and so on, side trip to
ToolBook) for about 23 years (well; aberrational "romance" with Visual
Basic 6 owing to MA requirements:
probably like committing adultery: you suddenly realise what a fool
you've been and where your true loyalties lie). In fact I haven't really
done much "elsewhere" since PASCAL 5 (1984) for the plain and
simple reason that LiveCode has been pushed as a complete and
comprehensive programming package.

So, by doing "this" we are now being told it is not a complete and
comprehensive programming package.

Well, all I can say is "Thank b*gg*ry my requirements are limited to
what LC can provide currently" (well, at the moment).

Frankly the thought of having to go and learn C/C++/C#/ObjC? and so on
fills me with dread: not because I'm
stupid and can't, nor because I'm lazy and can't be bothered: but
because I have invested all my spare
time (ask my wife about THAT topic) in learning LiveCode, and don't
simply have the time to start learning
another 4 or 5 programming languages.

I am, at the moment, learning Scratch because I have had requests from
about 2 dozen parents to teach their children that this Summer: this is
hardly time-consuming as it is, strictly speaking, a Mickey-mouse
language which one can do things in after about 15 minutes if one has
even a very basic grasp of any other programming package. C and C++ are,
most definitely, not like Scratch.

Even LCB makes me wonder slightly: why should it be necessary to invent
a second programming language to write add-ons for the first one? This
is like my having to speak in Scots because Bulgarian is somehow
incapable of expressing some ideas: which of course is nonsense as
Bulgarian is just as good as Scots for
expressing everything.

I wonder how many programmers are going to spend their money on LiveCode
if they are aware that at a certain point they are going to have to
leverage one or more other programming languages to achieve
certain things. Now, while I am going to continue to promote LiveCode as
a very effective teaching and learning tool I am wondering about making
a fool of myself continuing to tell all the programmers here in Bulgaria
(a major outsourcing place both for the United States and the EU) that
LiveCode can do what C++ can do. Especially as 90% of the programmers I
am acquainted with (I teach their children English, I get paid by them
to translate some programming stuff, I install Linux for them, and so
on) think that C++ is the "Bee's Knees".

HyperCard began to fall apart when it started having to have to use
AppleScript for certain things . . .

Richmond.

On 1/3/17 9:19 pm, hh wrote:

>>> JB wrote:
>>> The Livecode team imported Apple’s Foundation
>>> Framework so you can use its power inside of a
>>> stack instead of writing extensions.
>> JB wrote also:
>> If you want it all prepackaged ask the
>> Livecode team to use the samples in
>> widgets.  They will do what they see
>> is financially beneficial so your money
>> speaks when it comes to changes.
> You certainly don't mean people should learn C/C++/ObjC
> and not use LC any more. So I really don't understand
> the purpose of this thread:
>
> Foundation Framework is "prepackaged" code, also LCB.
> So could you please give us one simple example of what
> you mean with "you can use its power inside of a stack
> instead of writing extensions" (with the help of C/C++/ObjC
> only).
>
> Thanks.
>
>> JB wrote:
>> I did what I could to provide some good
>> examples to help people learn.
>>
>> If you are not making any mistakes then
>> you are not learning anything.
>>
>> If you want it all prepackaged ask the
>> Livecode team to use the samples in
>> widgets.  They will do what they see
>> is financially beneficial so your money
>> speaks when it comes to changes.
>>
>> JB
>>
>>
>>> On Jan 3, 2017, at 5:16 AM, hh <hh at hyperhh.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> JB wrote:
>>>> Over a year ago they said Foundation was
>>>> imported and you can even use pointers. I
>>>> don’t have anymore info about it.
>>> JB,
>>> thanks. A simple example of an already available foundation
>>> function and a link to a header listing others is here:
>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=147232#p147232
>>> (explained there by peter-b, for use in a widget's code)
>>>
>>> But that's probably the very beginning only of what you have
>>> in mind.
>>>
>>>> JB wrote:
>>>> Learning C will help even if for some reason they are having
>>>> problems with Foundation.
>>> Most of us hope that having a good example for copy and paste
>>> will be enough for "similar usages" with small changes. Avoiding
>>> C/C++/objC or java may be, besides LC's cross-platform property,
>>> for many people a main reason to use LiveCode.
>>>
>>> It will be an important community contribution by people like
>>> you to give us such typical good examples!
>>>
>>> hh
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Foundation Framework

Bob Sneidar-2
In reply to this post by hh
If you knew even the basics of C you could write widgets that could do things you presently cannot do in LC. At least that is what I think they are saying. An example? A really robust SMTP module, that knows how to work with modern encryption. This is not trivial, but thankfully, there are libraries and API's that are already written to do most of the heavy lifting.

Another might be writing a REAL progress dialog which ran in it's own thread. Or how about something that handles a graphics animation for a game? Or was able to interact with another program like Adobe Acrobat via the Javascript API, something that cannot be done presently without some API's in place.

Bob S


On Jan 3, 2017, at 11:19 , hh <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

You certainly don't mean people should learn C/C++/ObjC
and not use LC any more. So I really don't understand
the purpose of this thread:

Foundation Framework is "prepackaged" code, also LCB.
So could you please give us one simple example of what
you mean with "you can use its power inside of a stack
instead of writing extensions" (with the help of C/C++/ObjC
only).

Thanks.

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Re: Foundation Framework

Bob Sneidar-2
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
Richmond, don't make me pull out my "LC is like a constructor set" analogy again!!!

Bob S


On Jan 3, 2017, at 11:54 , Richmond Mathewson <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

This whole thing looks like an awful sort of confession of "F".

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Re: Foundation Framework

Dr. Hawkins
In reply to this post by JB
On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 3:51 AM JB <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> L>llLearning C will help even if for some reason
>

With apologies that Twain . . .

*learning* C is easy--I've done it dozens of times.

*remembering* it a few weeks after the project is another story .. .
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Re: Foundation Framework

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
On 1/3/17 1:54 PM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:
> I wonder how many programmers are going to spend their money on LiveCode
> if they are aware that at a certain point they are going to have to
> leverage one or more other programming languages to achieve
> certain things.

No one needs to learn any other language. Since the LC team understands
that most users don't want to learn lower-level languages like C++,
they've provided an intermediate language -- LCB -- that meets the
requirement halfway. For those who know or don't mind learning C or its
variants, they can tap directly into OS frameworks to achieve even more.

None of this means that you yourself need to actually write those
things, or that the capabilities of LC have somehow diminished. It isn't
any different than writing externals, which have been around forever and
which we use with abandon without understanding a single line of the
underlying code.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Foundation Framework

hh
In reply to this post by JB
The big problem since several months:
A lot of people are speaking about what may be done, may be
soon. Not about what can be done, showing working examples.

All 'examples' listed in this thread need LCB and most of them
especially a FFI that may be available, may be soon, may be for
java only. Then comes C, may be. I don't mind, I know both,
halfway, good enough for using available libraries/frameworks.

But then a *repeated* decision for developers arises:

> JLG wrote:
> For those who know or don't mind learning C or its variants,
> they can tap directly into OS frameworks to achieve even more.

That's a good point -- the more "foreign" code one has to do.
And that's why we need a lot of typical and good examples for
those who wish to use it (JLG:)
"without understanding a single line of the underlying code".

But if it is as with until now shared widgets, then there will be
again less than 64 ...

> Richmond M. wrote:
> > I wonder how many programmers are going to spend their money on LiveCode
> > if they are aware that at a certain point they are going to have to
> > leverage one or more other programming languages to achieve
> > certain things.
>
> Jaqueline L.G. wrote:
> No one needs to learn any other language. Since the LC team understands
> that most users don't want to learn lower-level languages like C++,
> they've provided an intermediate language -- LCB -- that meets the
> requirement halfway. For those who know or don't mind learning C or its
> variants, they can tap directly into OS frameworks to achieve even more.
> None of this means that you yourself need to actually write those
> things, or that the capabilities of LC have somehow diminished. It isn't
> any different than writing externals, which have been around forever and
> which we use with abandon without understanding a single line of the
> underlying code.

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Re: Foundation Framework

J. Landman Gay
On 1/3/17 4:32 PM, hh wrote:
> And that's why we need a lot of typical and good examples for
> those who wish to use it (JLG:)
> "without understanding a single line of the underlying code".
>
> But if it is as with until now shared widgets, then there will be
> again less than 64 ...

True, and I did take a look at LCB briefly. I did part of the tutorial
and realized my brain doesn't work that way yet. It would take a lot of
experimentation and practice to use it, which I don't have time for with
my current work load, so I left my tutorial files on the desktop where
they still reside. Some day I will look again.

I've been thinking in x-talk for 30 years and it is hard to think any
other way.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Foundation Framework

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
Thank you for a very clear explanation which improved the taste of my
breakfast no end.

Although . . . it still doesn't quite explain why we need LCB to do some
"heavy lifting": why can LC
not be extended to encompass that?

Richmond.

On 1/3/17 11:40 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 1/3/17 1:54 PM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>> I wonder how many programmers are going to spend their money on LiveCode
>> if they are aware that at a certain point they are going to have to
>> leverage one or more other programming languages to achieve
>> certain things.
>
> No one needs to learn any other language. Since the LC team
> understands that most users don't want to learn lower-level languages
> like C++, they've provided an intermediate language -- LCB -- that
> meets the requirement halfway. For those who know or don't mind
> learning C or its variants, they can tap directly into OS frameworks
> to achieve even more.
>
> None of this means that you yourself need to actually write those
> things, or that the capabilities of LC have somehow diminished. It
> isn't any different than writing externals, which have been around
> forever and which we use with abandon without understanding a single
> line of the underlying code.
>

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Re: Foundation Framework

J. Landman Gay
LC could definitely be extended to do anything. But the team has limited
resources and chooses new features carefully depending on a number of
factors, and one person's need may not be enough to justify the work. In
the spirit of OSS, we now have a way to implement those extensions ourselves.

It is more freedom, not less.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On January 4, 2017 2:16:56 AM Richmond Mathewson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you for a very clear explanation which improved the taste of my
> breakfast no end.
>
> Although . . . it still doesn't quite explain why we need LCB to do some
> "heavy lifting": why can LC
> not be extended to encompass that?
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 1/3/17 11:40 pm, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>> On 1/3/17 1:54 PM, Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>>> I wonder how many programmers are going to spend their money on LiveCode
>>> if they are aware that at a certain point they are going to have to
>>> leverage one or more other programming languages to achieve
>>> certain things.
>>
>> No one needs to learn any other language. Since the LC team
>> understands that most users don't want to learn lower-level languages
>> like C++, they've provided an intermediate language -- LCB -- that
>> meets the requirement halfway. For those who know or don't mind
>> learning C or its variants, they can tap directly into OS frameworks
>> to achieve even more.
>>
>> None of this means that you yourself need to actually write those
>> things, or that the capabilities of LC have somehow diminished. It
>> isn't any different than writing externals, which have been around
>> forever and which we use with abandon without understanding a single
>> line of the underlying code.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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