How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Jonathan Lynch
The potential problem would be in violating a contract you signed - I say potential because I do not know all the nuances of this situation.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: René Micout <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:33:10
To: How to use Revolution<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

No.
When I responds to some posts, my English is too poor, and I use a translation application.
My views may seem clumsy, but are not dishonest...
In the computer's world using English is necessary but not obligatory. I think in French even when I speak English (I'd like to think in English, but...), I claim the right to think RevTalk while writing in Objective C. Where is the ethical problem ?
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:29, [hidden email] a écrit :

> Hi Rene, are you concerned that there may be an ethical issue with doing that?
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: René Micout <[hidden email]>
> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:15:34
> To: How to use Revolution<[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
>
> Hello Chipp, Richard, Randall, ... Sorry Tom,
> I'm sorry to revive the debate, but, for me, everything is not clear...
> I make a supposition — unfortunaly it is a supposition :-(
> I am an expert with RevTalk and Objective C.
> I make a tool that allows me to write a project with RevTalk language. I use Interface Builder to create the interface.
> I click a "magic" button and all my work turns into a perfect Objective C code.
> I enter my new Objective C code (copy and paste) in Cocoa Xcode on my Macintosh and I start construct the application as if I type all with my little hands...
> How Apple can prove that I used the language RevTalk to "prototype" my code ?
> Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract), yes, but where are the proof ?
> If I act in this way, I don't see where is there problem...
> René
>
>_______________________________________________
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

René Micout
But I respect the contract : I think in RevTalk (it is my private life) and I write in Objective C and I compile "my" Objective C code on (in ?) Xcode...
I don't understand where is the violation...

Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:58, [hidden email] a écrit :

> The potential problem would be in violating a contract you signed - I say potential because I do not know all the nuances of this situation.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Jonathan Lynch
Well, René, the violation would be whatever violation you were referring to
when you said:

"Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract),
yes, but where are the proof ?"

J
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:51 AM, René Micout <[hidden email]>wrote:

> But I respect the contract : I think in RevTalk (it is my private life) and
> I write in Objective C and I compile "my" Objective C code on (in ?)
> Xcode...
> I don't understand where is the violation...
>
> Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:58, [hidden email] a écrit :
>
> > The potential problem would be in violating a contract you signed - I say
> potential because I do not know all the nuances of this situation.
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>  _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>



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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

René Micout
Yes,
But I read (now) all the § 3. Your obligations of the iPhone SDK license.
It is not easy, all is in English juridic language (I don't find the French license...  Does it exist ? If not in France [loi Toubon] the litigious terms of the contract are considered invalid... But is not the subject)
When I red this part of the license I can say if "not using Objective C, C, C++" is a violation of the license.
I never read something like that after a quick read...
But it is necessary to read scrupulously to carry on...
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 15:15, Jonathan Lynch a écrit :

> Well, René, the violation would be whatever violation you were referring to
> when you said:
>
> "Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract),
> yes, but where are the proof ?"
>
> J
> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:51 AM, René Micout <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> But I respect the contract : I think in RevTalk (it is my private life) and
>> I write in Objective C and I compile "my" Objective C code on (in ?)
>> Xcode...
>> I don't understand where is the violation...
>>
>> Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:58, [hidden email] a écrit :
>>
>>> The potential problem would be in violating a contract you signed - I say
>> potential because I do not know all the nuances of this situation.
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-revolution mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Do all things with love
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Jonathan Lynch
I think that is in the new license agreement - 4.0

I don't want to add any more to the large quantity of postings on this
topic, so I will stop now. My only parting advice would be to listen to your
conscience and try to do the right thing. I do wish that Steve Jobs would
not have put so many people into this position, but trying to find legal
maneuvers to sneak around the letter of the development agreement will not
end well for anyone, including RunRev and its community of developers.

Best of luck to you,

J

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 9:27 AM, René Micout <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Yes,
> But I read (now) all the § 3. Your obligations of the iPhone SDK license.
> It is not easy, all is in English juridic language (I don't find the French
> license...  Does it exist ? If not in France [loi Toubon] the litigious
> terms of the contract are considered invalid... But is not the subject)
> When I red this part of the license I can say if "not using Objective C, C,
> C++" is a violation of the license.
> I never read something like that after a quick read...
> But it is necessary to read scrupulously to carry on...
> René
>
> Le 7 mai 2010 à 15:15, Jonathan Lynch a écrit :
>
> > Well, René, the violation would be whatever violation you were referring
> to
> > when you said:
> >
> > "Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards
> contract),
> > yes, but where are the proof ?"
> >
> > J
> > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:51 AM, René Micout <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
> >
> >> But I respect the contract : I think in RevTalk (it is my private life)
> and
> >> I write in Objective C and I compile "my" Objective C code on (in ?)
> >> Xcode...
> >> I don't understand where is the violation...
> >>
> >> Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:58, [hidden email] a écrit :
> >>
> >>> The potential problem would be in violating a contract you signed - I
> say
> >> potential because I do not know all the nuances of this situation.
> >>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-revolution mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Do all things with love
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-revolution mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>



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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Robert Mann
In reply to this post by Jonathan Lynch
Just.. one more word!

I happen to have a legal background, my initial idea long time ago was to set up legal expert systems.. (yes I love lawyers!!). Eventhough lots of things are purely contractual in the US, there still remains the general principle in our modern states, that a contract cannot overide some "higher" rules, like the bill of right in the US which stands clear at the constitutional level.

In the Gizmodo case... there was a clear breach of standard laws : it is straight illegal to buy out a stolen good.. full point. Some guy at some point has been really dumb and pretentious to rely on the freedom of press protection. In that case the freedom or press is an inferior right to the right of ownership.

In our 3.3.1 case, there would be abolutely no reasonable reason for a judge to grant Apple the power to check how the hell your Xcode was written except if...
-- they have proof you jailed a 10 years old genius that you exploit... that would be illegal.
I think it lies in article 7 oh human rights... (nobody can interfere with your life unless there is a good reason and to do so..)

Writing, managing, your xCode librairies in tText (thanks JD) IS NOT ILLEGAL. Same if you use plugins to auto-update code, or auto generate full or part of it... this is not illegal. If Apple say so, even if you have signed, but if you refuse anybody from Apple to come at your home and check, the judge will have to decide. And your attorneys will object that there is no reson to authorize this as it would be an unreasonable infringment of your fundamental freedom...

And... any provision in an Apple contract saying that this use of a runrev app somwhere in the line could be challenged at court in view of the yet non existing, but implied, "freedom of thinking" clause in the bill of right.. man shall we have to vote that one in????

In France many contracts are "OVERULED" by laws that dictacte what clauses are valid or invalid ab initio, whatever you sign...  and this 3.3.1 clause would not stand a chance in France and Europe.

From a technical point of view there cannot be any violation of right.. where there are no rights! And apple just has not the right to decide how you think... and has no right to forbid you to copy and paste xcode from a published source of code that allows it, however "generic" and not original it is... There are limits to how far in your life a contract can reach.

Nevertheless, I'm in sympathy with Steve Jobs concern to control the quality of pieces of software that run on apples machines...  !!!

again the good news is that if flash gets bitten, there maybe be more opportunities for revWeb plugin and for ON-REV technologie to expand... don't yu think?


 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Colin Holgate-2

On May 7, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Robert Mann wrote:

> >In the Gizmodo case... there was a clear breach of standard laws : it is
> straight illegal to buy out a stolen good.. full point.


The story they are sticking to is that Gizmodo paid the guy the money to guarantee exclusivity, and with the intention of returning the iPhone to the owner after looking at it. So that's not quite the same as buying a stolen device.



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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

René Micout
In reply to this post by Robert Mann
I agree with all your post...
It is exactly what I think even part about Steve Jobs
Bon souvenir de Paris
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 16:05, Robert Mann a écrit :

>
> Just.. one more word!
>
> I happen to have a legal background, my initial idea long time ago was to
> set up legal expert systems.. (yes I love lawyers!!). Eventhough lots of
> things are purely contractual in the US, there still remains the general
> principle in our modern states, that a contract cannot overide some "higher"
> rules, like the bill of right in the US which stands clear at the
> constitutional level.
>
> In the Gizmodo case... there was a clear breach of standard laws : it is
> straight illegal to buy out a stolen good.. full point. Some guy at some
> point has been really dumb and pretentious to rely on the freedom of press
> protection. In that case the freedom or press is an inferior right to the
> right of ownership.
>
> In our 3.3.1 case, there would be abolutely no reasonable reason for a judge
> to grant Apple the power to check how the hell your Xcode was written except
> if...
> -- they have proof you jailed a 10 years old genius that you exploit... that
> would be illegal.
> I think it lies in article 7 oh human rights... (nobody can interfere with
> your life unless there is a good reason and to do so..)
>
> Writing, managing, your xCode librairies in tText (thanks JD) IS NOT
> ILLEGAL. Same if you use plugins to auto-update code, or auto generate full
> or part of it... this is not illegal. If Apple say so, even if you have
> signed, but if you refuse anybody from Apple to come at your home and check,
> the judge will have to decide. And your attorneys will object that there is
> no reson to authorize this as it would be an unreasonable infringment of
> your fundamental freedom...
>
> And... any provision in an Apple contract saying that this use of a runrev
> app somwhere in the line could be challenged at court in view of the yet non
> existing, but implied, "freedom of thinking" clause in the bill of right..
> man shall we have to vote that one in????
>
> In France many contracts are "OVERULED" by laws that dictacte what clauses
> are valid or invalid ab initio, whatever you sign...  and this 3.3.1 clause
> would not stand a chance in France and Europe.
>
>> From a technical point of view there cannot be any violation of right..
> where there are no rights! And apple just has not the right to decide how
> you think... and has no right to forbid you to copy and paste xcode from a
> published source of code that allows it, however "generic" and not original
> it is... There are limits to how far in your life a contract can reach.
>
> Nevertheless, I'm in sympathy with Steve Jobs concern to control the quality
> of pieces of software that run on apples machines...  !!!
>
> again the good news is that if flash gets bitten, there maybe be more
> opportunities for revWeb plugin and for ON-REV technologie to expand...
> don't yu think?
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/How-exactly-does-runrev-for-ipad-iphone-work-tp2133661p2134236.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

René Micout
In reply to this post by Robert Mann
See Rodeo :
http://rodeoapps.com/
René_______________________________________________
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Peter Alcibiades
In reply to this post by René Micout
Rene, you are asking the wrong question probably.  Suppose you find some way to bypass the technical legal wording of the restriction.  It is not going to help.  You are dealing with a policy which is backed up by the power of Apple to reject any app, or any developer, for any, or for no, reason.

So, find a way around it legally, use it, then get caught due to some coding change in the tools that you should be using, in their view, which leaves a signature, which your app now does not have, and you get banned.  So your investment is up in smoke.

It is not going to work.  As long as Apple has the mechanism of the App store, and control over the tools that it wants used, it can lay traps.  And remember, Apple does not care how many false positives it generates.  It just tells you to go away, and you're out.

The smart thing to do is respect their policy.  As Richard says, that is unfortunately going to mean the policy that is in effect at this particular hour and day.  If it changes tomorrow, well, get ready to respect that one too.

This is what causes, and is maybe designed to cause, the pinch for small businesses.  Either you are in the camp, and you follow the rules, and you become sort of part of an Apple extended family, and you put in all the effort it takes to keep up, or you are out.

I know organic farmers in the UK who refuse to supply supermarkets.  Yes, they can sell a lot of stuff to them.  But they don't want to be owned by one.  So they take lower margins and greater uncertainty and sell through a variety of channels.  In the end, they feel, its safer and more sustainable than having the markets always make you offers you cannot refuse.

Jerry may be right, joining Apple may be the profitable choice.  I don't know.  But what's clear is, if you are going to be in, you have to play by the rules.  There is no way around this one, as long as the App Store is the bottleneck.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

slylabs13
I just think that I would rather have an iPhone that is reliable and secure, than one I cannot be sure about because I downloaded something that is buggy or has a hidden exploit. What if in the initial stages of the iPhone, people were writing apps helter skelter that were unstable? How many support calls would Apple have gotten? What kind of bad rap would Apple have gotten for their "unstable insecure mobile device?" I can see the headlines: "Apple's iPhone just like the rest!" "Will the iPhone be just another Windows Update nightmare?"

I think if that had been the case, people would be complaining much more loudly, only their complaint would have been, "Apple has the resources. They should have been able to do something about this mess!" Well they did do something about it right out of the gate. Consider how many more sales of these custom apps made by small developers happened, because the weight of Apple's quality control was behind it? People freely purchase and download apps without any fear at all about stability and security BECAUSE of Apple's app store model. How much more profitable have developers been because of that confidence?

In the past people only purchased from established developers and vendors (and paid good money for it too) because that was their way of ensuring stability and security in what they got. Apple has provided a way that a simple toad like me, who has a good idea for an app can either bless the world with my genius, or else make a little cash on the side.

Everything is give and take. You give up convenience for security and stability. That is the bargain to be struck. For those who don't like it, don't make the bargain. And haven't we always had rules to play by? The difference here is that the rules are strictly enforced, and IMHO rightly so, because a mobile computing device that is also a phone that also has bluetooth and wireless could be conceivably be turned into a traveling pandemic infecting every computer it could exploit.

And as far as the Flash thing, personally I am happy our children cannot easily view porn at will on their iPhones. It's the old tradeoff again, but this time it's a bit of freedom for security.

Bob


On May 7, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Peter Alcibiades wrote:

> Jerry may be right, joining Apple may be the profitable choice.  I don't
> know.  But what's clear is, if you are going to be in, you have to play by
> the rules.  There is no way around this one, as long as the App Store is the
> bottleneck.

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Chipp Walters-2
Bob,

I'm not so sure about the whole "AppStore will keep you safe all the time" thing. Consider this poor schlep who download iDisplay from the AppStore and it ended up wiping out his computer:
http://justanotheripadblog.com/ipad-app-reviews/quick-look-idisplay-for-ipad

Just one case out of many.

And I really hope you aren't serious about your kids not being able to access porn from your iPhone. Steve was disingenuous when he commented, "if you want to use porn, get an Android," You or your kids can access porn from your iPhone just like the rest of the world, through the browser. I have know idea what you're referring to by mentioning Flash in conjunction to porn. Flash is not porn.

Chipp Walters
CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc

On May 7, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Bob Sneidar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just think that I would rather have an iPhone that is reliable and secure, than one I cannot be sure about because I downloaded something that is buggy or has a hidden exploit. What if in the initial stages of the iPhone, people were writing apps helter skelter that were unstable? How many support calls would Apple have gotten? What kind of bad rap would Apple have gotten for their "unstable insecure mobile device?" I can see the headlines: "Apple's iPhone just like the rest!" "Will the iPhone be just another Windows Update nightmare?"
>
> I think if that had been the case, people would be complaining much more loudly, only their complaint would have been, "Apple has the resources. They should have been able to do something about this mess!" Well they did do something about it right out of the gate. Consider how many more sales of these custom apps made by small developers happened, because the weight of Apple's quality control was behind it? People freely purchase and download apps without any fear at all about stability and security BECAUSE of Apple's app store model. How much more profitable have developers been because of that confidence?
>
> In the past people only purchased from established developers and vendors (and paid good money for it too) because that was their way of ensuring stability and security in what they got. Apple has provided a way that a simple toad like me, who has a good idea for an app can either bless the world with my genius, or else make a little cash on the side.
>
> Everything is give and take. You give up convenience for security and stability. That is the bargain to be struck. For those who don't like it, don't make the bargain. And haven't we always had rules to play by? The difference here is that the rules are strictly enforced, and IMHO rightly so, because a mobile computing device that is also a phone that also has bluetooth and wireless could be conceivably be turned into a traveling pandemic infecting every computer it could exploit.
>
> And as far as the Flash thing, personally I am happy our children cannot easily view porn at will on their iPhones. It's the old tradeoff again, but this time it's a bit of freedom for security.
>
> Bob
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

René Micout
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades
Peter,
Yes, I understand for all developpers who want to distribute inside the AppStore.
It is not my case... I said that few weeks ago. I create tools for me, and I want create tools on iPad witch is, I think, a fabulous thing... I understand also that RunRev don't invest only for people like me, we are not numerous enough...
This is my problem... or not...
Bon souvenir de Paris
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 18:06, Peter Alcibiades a écrit :

>
> Rene, you are asking the wrong question probably.  Suppose you find some way
> to bypass the technical legal wording of the restriction.  It is not going
> to help.  You are dealing with a policy which is backed up by the power of
> Apple to reject any app, or any developer, for any, or for no, reason.
>
> So, find a way around it legally, use it, then get caught due to some coding
> change in the tools that you should be using, in their view, which leaves a
> signature, which your app now does not have, and you get banned.  So your
> investment is up in smoke.
>
> It is not going to work.  As long as Apple has the mechanism of the App
> store, and control over the tools that it wants used, it can lay traps.  And
> remember, Apple does not care how many false positives it generates.  It
> just tells you to go away, and you're out.
>
> The smart thing to do is respect their policy.  As Richard says, that is
> unfortunately going to mean the policy that is in effect at this particular
> hour and day.  If it changes tomorrow, well, get ready to respect that one
> too.
>
> This is what causes, and is maybe designed to cause, the pinch for small
> businesses.  Either you are in the camp, and you follow the rules, and you
> become sort of part of an Apple extended family, and you put in all the
> effort it takes to keep up, or you are out.
>
> I know organic farmers in the UK who refuse to supply supermarkets.  Yes,
> they can sell a lot of stuff to them.  But they don't want to be owned by
> one.  So they take lower margins and greater uncertainty and sell through a
> variety of channels.  In the end, they feel, its safer and more sustainable
> than having the markets always make you offers you cannot refuse.
>
> Jerry may be right, joining Apple may be the profitable choice.  I don't
> know.  But what's clear is, if you are going to be in, you have to play by
> the rules.  There is no way around this one, as long as the App Store is the
> bottleneck.
> --
> View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/How-exactly-does-runrev-for-ipad-iphone-work-tp2133661p2134443.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

René Micout
In reply to this post by slylabs13
YES !

Le 7 mai 2010 à 18:27, Bob Sneidar a écrit :

> I just think that I would rather have an iPhone that is reliable and secure, than one I cannot be sure about because I downloaded something that is buggy or has a hidden exploit. What if in the initial stages of the iPhone, people were writing apps helter skelter that were unstable? How many support calls would Apple have gotten? What kind of bad rap would Apple have gotten for their "unstable insecure mobile device?" I can see the headlines: "Apple's iPhone just like the rest!" "Will the iPhone be just another Windows Update nightmare?"
>
> I think if that had been the case, people would be complaining much more loudly, only their complaint would have been, "Apple has the resources. They should have been able to do something about this mess!" Well they did do something about it right out of the gate. Consider how many more sales of these custom apps made by small developers happened, because the weight of Apple's quality control was behind it? People freely purchase and download apps without any fear at all about stability and security BECAUSE of Apple's app store model. How much more profitable have developers been because of that confidence?
>
> In the past people only purchased from established developers and vendors (and paid good money for it too) because that was their way of ensuring stability and security in what they got. Apple has provided a way that a simple toad like me, who has a good idea for an app can either bless the world with my genius, or else make a little cash on the side.
>
> Everything is give and take. You give up convenience for security and stability. That is the bargain to be struck. For those who don't like it, don't make the bargain. And haven't we always had rules to play by? The difference here is that the rules are strictly enforced, and IMHO rightly so, because a mobile computing device that is also a phone that also has bluetooth and wireless could be conceivably be turned into a traveling pandemic infecting every computer it could exploit.
>
> And as far as the Flash thing, personally I am happy our children cannot easily view porn at will on their iPhones. It's the old tradeoff again, but this time it's a bit of freedom for security.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On May 7, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Peter Alcibiades wrote:
>
>> Jerry may be right, joining Apple may be the profitable choice.  I don't
>> know.  But what's clear is, if you are going to be in, you have to play by
>> the rules.  There is no way around this one, as long as the App Store is the
>> bottleneck.
>
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall Reetz
In reply to this post by Kurt Kaufman
Thank you robert.

Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and technical feasibility of rev outputting C source.

Lets start with the fact that the best compilers are written for C.  That these compilers are industry standards and that it could be argued, the epicenter of computing.

I think xtalk is a more human environment for the writing of logic, and that C is that same thing for computers them selves.

A match made in heaven!  Create in rev, test, prototype, deploy in casual situations, and then when everything is ready for the big leagues (or when nothing else is possible) export C source (customized as per target platform).

At this point, pay runrev what their efforts are worth... A lot!  Enter into an equity sharing contract or pay a big publishing fee.  Everyone is happy.

Randall

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Mann <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 5:21 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?


Man.. let us read...

3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
   prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
   Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++,
   or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and
   only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and
   directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications
   that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation
   or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).

Let's start reading ... A few definitions :

API's - is an interface implemented by a software program which enables it
to interact with other software (same language or foreign languages).

PLease note that the 3.3.1 DOES NOT state documented API by Apple!! and
refers to PRiVATE APIs.
Litterally speaking PUBLIC APIs like google maps etc.. do not fall in!!

There are some feras expressed that an expanded interpretation of this
clause would embrace all forms of organized libraires writen in C or C++
that could be incorporated by a programmer to better structure his program.
I cannot see how this interpretation can hold. As well as I cannot
understand the fuss about "ORIGINALLY WRITTEN in c.." because this is
unenforceable legally...

I guess that "Originally written" in Steve's mind means in that context
"hand" written, not just output by a machine...

But, from a legal point of view nobody can restrain the way you think, work,
produce your code. Steve cannot forbid the use of any form or helping tool,
3rd party documentation, copying/pasting of functions from here or there, or
software robot, intermediate layer, provided it delivers some x code :
nobody can restrain this freedom.

The copyright law protects only the materialization of ideas, never the
ideas themselves, nor the processes, not the methods. And programming has
been clearly associated to writing. So nobody (even Stevie..) can (LEGALLY -
ei enforceable in court) dictate how the hell you produce your damned x Code
libraries.

So I  support the argument that the only way that "originally written in c"
can be interpreted is "at some stage materially visible and editable in C or
C++ in the XCode environment" whatever steps have occured before, as these
prior steps are immaterial.

The limit would be if for instance revMobile produced X Code in two parts :
a) the actual stack application code and b) alongside a set of home made
runrev librarires writen in C or C++ that would be neccessary, part A)
calling part b). My conviction is that even in that situation, a legal
action by Apple would not succeed on the ground of 3.3.1.

But I guess anyhow Apple has a full discretionnary power to allow apps or
not in their APP store, SO FAR, so yes they could easily tell "your app uses
a set of runrev libraries we de not like.. It is likely you use runrev as a
production tool and we do not like it.. be bye!" Or tell you nothing, just
NO!

But I cannot see "them" as plain evil, just like that. They seem to have
plans for the future and have reasons to enforce the c++ or c and Xcode
compiler. But they do not seem to have any interest to go further than that_______________________________________________
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall Reetz
In reply to this post by Kurt Kaufman
What about that, can apple control apps written for one's own use?  For limited in-house distribution and deployment?  What about free apps?  What about for-profit sales but with no need for the app store?

-----Original Message-----
From: René Micout <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 10:27 AM
To: How to use Revolution <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Peter,
Yes, I understand for all developpers who want to distribute inside the AppStore.
It is not my case... I said that few weeks ago. I create tools for me, and I want create tools on iPad witch is, I think, a fabulous thing... I understand also that RunRev don't invest only for people like me, we are not numerous enough...
This is my problem... or not...
Bon souvenir de Paris
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 18:06, Peter Alcibiades a écrit :

>
> Rene, you are asking the wrong question probably.  Suppose you find some way
> to bypass the technical legal wording of the restriction.  It is not going
> to help.  You are dealing with a policy which is backed up by the power of
> Apple to reject any app, or any developer, for any, or for no, reason.
>
> So, find a way around it legally, use it, then get caught due to some coding
> change in the tools that you should be using, in their view, which leaves a
> signature, which your app now does not have, and you get banned.  So your
> investment is up in smoke.
>
> It is not going to work.  As long as Apple has the mechanism of the App
> store, and control over the tools that it wants used, it can lay traps.  And
> remember, Apple does not care how many false positives it generates.  It
> just tells you to go away, and you're out.
>
> The smart thing to do is respect their policy.  As Richard says, that is
> unfortunately going to mean the policy that is in effect at this particular
> hour and day.  If it changes tomorrow, well, get ready to respect that one
> too.
>
> This is what causes, and is maybe designed to cause, the pinch for small
> businesses.  Either you are in the camp, and you follow the rules, and you
> become sort of part of an Apple extended family, and you put in all the
> effort it takes to keep up, or you are out.
>
> I know organic farmers in the UK who refuse to supply supermarkets.  Yes,
> they can sell a lot of stuff to them.  But they don't want to be owned by
> one.  So they take lower margins and greater uncertainty and sell through a
> variety of channels.  In the end, they feel, its safer and more sustainable
> than having the markets always make you offers you cannot refuse.
>
> Jerry may be right, joining Apple may be the profitable choice.  I don't
> know.  But what's clear is, if you are going to be in, you have to play by
> the rules.  There is no way around this one, as long as the App Store is the
> bottleneck.
> --
> View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/How-exactly-does-runrev-for-ipad-iphone-work-tp2133661p2134443.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by Randall Reetz
Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
> Thank you robert.
>
> Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and
> technical feasibility of rev outputting C source.

No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can
do here.

--
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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall Reetz
In reply to this post by Kurt Kaufman
Actually, there is a lot we ca do... I like many have felt isolated by my choices.  I chose xtalk because it is human.  That choice has its share of negative fallout.  So I am motivated to advocate a more open publishing option from xtalk to the world's devices and platforms.  At this stage of flux (apple induced) there is impetus and leeway to rethink the whole scheme.  I, as a consumer relish the chance to debate demand and options.  

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:46 AM
To: How to use Revolution <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
> Thank you robert.
>
> Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and
> technical feasibility of rev outputting C source.

No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can
do here.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Matthias Rebbe
Randall!

Maybe, but please not on this list anymore until Runrevs  response on Monday.

Thank you very much!

Matthias

Am 07.05.2010 um 21:08 schrieb Randall Lee Reetz:

> Actually, there is a lot we ca do... I like many have felt isolated by my choices.  I chose xtalk because it is human.  That choice has its share of negative fallout.  So I am motivated to advocate a more open publishing option from xtalk to the world's devices and platforms.  At this stage of flux (apple induced) there is impetus and leeway to rethink the whole scheme.  I, as a consumer relish the chance to debate demand and options.  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:46 AM
> To: How to use Revolution <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
>
> Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
>> Thank you robert.
>>
>> Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and
>> technical feasibility of rev outputting C source.
>
> No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can
> do here.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall Reetz
In reply to this post by Kurt Kaufman
Which of you are runrev stakeholders?  Cause the this discussion seems important.  To both the product and the market for runrev.

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthias Rebbe <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 12:18 PM
To: How to use Revolution <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall!

Maybe, but please not on this list anymore until Runrevs  response on Monday.

Thank you very much!

Matthias

Am 07.05.2010 um 21:08 schrieb Randall Lee Reetz:

> Actually, there is a lot we ca do... I like many have felt isolated by my choices.  I chose xtalk because it is human.  That choice has its share of negative fallout.  So I am motivated to advocate a more open publishing option from xtalk to the world's devices and platforms.  At this stage of flux (apple induced) there is impetus and leeway to rethink the whole scheme.  I, as a consumer relish the chance to debate demand and options.  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:46 AM
> To: How to use Revolution <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
>
> Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
>> Thank you robert.
>>
>> Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and
>> technical feasibility of rev outputting C source.
>
> No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can
> do here.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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