Internet date

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Internet date

J. Landman Gay
Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That is,
except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format always
the same?

Where I am, it is:  Tue, 1 Nov 2016 01:35:55 -0500

Geez, where did the year go?

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Internet date

Tore Nilsen
Here is what I get in Norway:

Tue, 1 Nov 2016 07:54:59 +0100


Tore

> 1. nov. 2016 kl. 07.38 skrev J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]>:
>
> Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That is, except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format always the same?
>
> Where I am, it is:  Tue, 1 Nov 2016 01:35:55 -0500
>
> Geez, where did the year go?
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Internet date

Thierry Douez
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
and in France:

Tue, 1 Nov 2016 07:57:56 +0100


2016-11-01 7:38 GMT+01:00 J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]>:

> Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That is,
> except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format always
> the same?
>
> Where I am, it is:  Tue, 1 Nov 2016 01:35:55 -0500
>
> Geez, where did the year go?
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>



--
------------------------------------------------
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sunnYrex - sunnYtext2speech - sunnYperl - sunnYmidi - sunnYmage
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Re: Internet date

Richmond Mathewson-2
Here, in Bulgaria:

Tue, 1 Nov 2016 16:15:56 +0200

*Richmond.*

On 1.11.2016 08:59, Thierry Douez wrote:

> and in France:
>
> Tue, 1 Nov 2016 07:57:56 +0100
>
>
> 2016-11-01 7:38 GMT+01:00 J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That is,
>> except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format always
>> the same?
>>
>> Where I am, it is:  Tue, 1 Nov 2016 01:35:55 -0500
>>
>> Geez, where did the year go?
>>
>> --
>> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
>> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>
>

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Re: Internet date

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
J. Landman Gay wrote:

 > Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That
 > is, except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format
 > always the same?

I believe all dates in LC are delivered using US English spellings,
except when explicitly directed otherwise by setting the useSystemDate
to true.

With the Internet date, though, the Dictionary notes that it follows RFC
2822, which IIFC only supports US English date element names, so I think
it should be unaffected by the useSystemDate.

If anyone using a non-US English system can double-check the format
after setting the useSystemDate to true it would be helpful to confirm that.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Internet date

Tore Nilsen
Use systemDate does not apply to the internet date. I got the same result with this set to both true and false.

Tore


> 1. nov. 2016 kl. 15.24 skrev Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>:
>
> J. Landman Gay wrote:
>
> > Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That
> > is, except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format
> > always the same?
>
> I believe all dates in LC are delivered using US English spellings, except when explicitly directed otherwise by setting the useSystemDate to true.
>
> With the Internet date, though, the Dictionary notes that it follows RFC 2822, which IIFC only supports US English date element names, so I think it should be unaffected by the useSystemDate.
>
> If anyone using a non-US English system can double-check the format after setting the useSystemDate to true it would be helpful to confirm that.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Internet date

Tore Nilsen
And I guess that is part of the reasoning for the internet date. You can be sure that the information will have a specific format, regardless of any other factors that may affect the way the information is formatted. Put the info in a variable, extract and format the parts you need to your own liking, and away you go.

Tore


> 1. nov. 2016 kl. 15.45 skrev Tore Nilsen <[hidden email]>:
>
> Use systemDate does not apply to the internet date. I got the same result with this set to both true and false.
>
> Tore
>
>
>> 1. nov. 2016 kl. 15.24 skrev Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> J. Landman Gay wrote:
>>
>>> Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That
>>> is, except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format
>>> always the same?
>>
>> I believe all dates in LC are delivered using US English spellings, except when explicitly directed otherwise by setting the useSystemDate to true.
>>
>> With the Internet date, though, the Dictionary notes that it follows RFC 2822, which IIFC only supports US English date element names, so I think it should be unaffected by the useSystemDate.
>>
>> If anyone using a non-US English system can double-check the format after setting the useSystemDate to true it would be helpful to confirm that.
>>
>> --
>> Richard Gaskin
>> Fourth World Systems
>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Internet date

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
in a related note…

> Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That
> is, except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format
> always the same?

I believe the whole rest of the IT world solved this a long time ago.. and I've had an enhancement request in for literally a decade….  to have the engine date function auto output the standard date format in the form of

YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SEC TZ # where TZ is picked form the local system

I'm off line at the moment so I don't have the RFC number for that standard.

Yes, I know Richard will respond "The beauty of LC is you can get this out yourself" (hehe)

but isn't it time that we have this output as a native form? of course that still requires you to convert this to date items then gets you an array you can depend on for the day and month names… you would have to look those up. And ideally "the monthnames" and "the weekdaynames" would be localized automatically by the engine if there was a "my language is" option in the LC preferences.  

select: "French:
output:

Lundi
Mardi
etc.

BR

 

On 11/1/16, 4:24 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    With the Internet date, though, the Dictionary notes that it follows RFC
    2822, which IIFC only supports US English date element names, so I think
    it should be unaffected by the useSystemDate.
   
    If anyone using a non-US English system can double-check the format
    after setting the useSystemDate to true it would be helpful to confirm that.
   
   

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Re: Internet date

Bob Sneidar-2
I call this sql date in my formatDate() function.

Bob S


On Nov 1, 2016, at 07:56 , Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

in a related note…

Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That
is, except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format
always the same?

I believe the whole rest of the IT world solved this a long time ago.. and I've had an enhancement request in for literally a decade….  to have the engine date function auto output the standard date format in the form of

YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SEC TZ # where TZ is picked form the local system

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Re: Internet date

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by Tore Nilsen
Thanks everyone, that tells me what I needed to know. I am surprised that
the day and month names aren't in the user's language though, I thought
they would be.

Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On November 1, 2016 9:47:11 AM Tore Nilsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Use systemDate does not apply to the internet date. I got the same result
> with this set to both true and false.
>
> Tore
>
>
>> 1. nov. 2016 kl. 15.24 skrev Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> J. Landman Gay wrote:
>>
>> > Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That
>> > is, except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format
>> > always the same?
>>
>> I believe all dates in LC are delivered using US English spellings, except
>> when explicitly directed otherwise by setting the useSystemDate to true.
>>
>> With the Internet date, though, the Dictionary notes that it follows RFC
>> 2822, which IIFC only supports US English date element names, so I think it
>> should be unaffected by the useSystemDate.
>>
>> If anyone using a non-US English system can double-check the format after
>> setting the useSystemDate to true it would be helpful to confirm that.
>>
>> --
>> Richard Gaskin
>> Fourth World Systems
>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: Internet date

Tore Nilsen
But you can get the localized week day names: put the system weekdaynames — be aware that this sets sunday as the first day of the week no matter where you are


You can get the localized names of the months: put the system monthnames


Regards
Tore

> 1. nov. 2016 kl. 16.48 skrev J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]>:
>
> Thanks everyone, that tells me what I needed to know. I am surprised that the day and month names aren't in the user's language though, I thought they would be.
>
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
>
>
> On November 1, 2016 9:47:11 AM Tore Nilsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Use systemDate does not apply to the internet date. I got the same result with this set to both true and false.
>>
>> Tore
>>
>>
>>> 1. nov. 2016 kl. 15.24 skrev Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> J. Landman Gay wrote:
>>>
>>> > Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That
>>> > is, except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format
>>> > always the same?
>>>
>>> I believe all dates in LC are delivered using US English spellings, except when explicitly directed otherwise by setting the useSystemDate to true.
>>>
>>> With the Internet date, though, the Dictionary notes that it follows RFC 2822, which IIFC only supports US English date element names, so I think it should be unaffected by the useSystemDate.
>>>
>>> If anyone using a non-US English system can double-check the format after setting the useSystemDate to true it would be helpful to confirm that.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Richard Gaskin
>>> Fourth World Systems
>>> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>> ____________________________________________________________________
>>> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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>
>
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Re: Internet date

Matthias Rebbe | M-R-D
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
Hi

the time the internet date returns depends on the timezone you´ve selected in your settings.

On my Mac i  changed for example my timezone from
 Central European time to NewZealand summertime and my internet date changed

from Tue, 1 Nov 2016 17:21:22 +0100

 to Wed, 2 Nov 2016 05:20:03 +1300

After changing the timezone you have to restart livecode, because LC seems to read that setting only at start and is not able to detect changes w/o a restart.




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Tel +49 5741 310000
    +49 160 5504462
Fax: +49 5741 310002
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BR5 Konverter - BR5 -> MP3 <http://matthiasrebbe.eu/portfolio/produkte/brx/>

> Am 01.11.2016 um 15:24 schrieb Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>:
>
> J. Landman Gay wrote:
>
> > Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That
> > is, except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format
> > always the same?
>
> I believe all dates in LC are delivered using US English spellings, except when explicitly directed otherwise by setting the useSystemDate to true.
>
> With the Internet date, though, the Dictionary notes that it follows RFC 2822, which IIFC only supports US English date element names, so I think it should be unaffected by the useSystemDate.
>
> If anyone using a non-US English system can double-check the format after setting the useSystemDate to true it would be helpful to confirm that.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: Internet date

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami
Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

 >> Is the internet date in a consistent format in every country? That
 >> is, except for the spelling of the day and month names, is the format
 >> always the same?
 >
 > I believe the whole rest of the IT world solved this a long time
 > ago.. and I've had an enhancement request in for literally a
 > decade….  to have the engine date function auto output the standard
 > date format in the form of
 >
 > YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SEC TZ # where TZ is picked form the local system
 >
 > I'm off line at the moment so I don't have the RFC number for that
 > standard.

Ah, but there are so many "standards".  LC's internet date uses RFC
2822, and I'd wager there are at least two dozen different time/date
formats suggested across the countless RFCs out there (the one used in
RSS is my least favorite).

Unfortunately most of them predate this XKCD comic, so we were unable to
shame them into adopting a single standard while there might have been
an opportunity to do so:
https://xkcd.com/927/

So today what we need isn't just the internet date's RFC 2822, or the
one you're proposing, but a more general framework for supporting most
(ideally all) of them.


 > Yes, I know Richard will respond "The beauty of LC is you can get
 > this out yourself" (hehe)

On the contrary, I've started a thread on this subject in the forums
last year - this post from Mark Waddingham is particularly helpful in
terms of understanding what's needed and how to achieve it:
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=23547#p122030

The meat of it is:

    We'd very much like to extend the range of dates in the engine - but
    at the moment we use platform APIs to do the core processing which
    means we are restricted to the date ranges they provide. Generally,
    date/time processing isn't all that hard... However, the critical
    piece (which we rely on the OSes for) is the translation between
    universal and local time - this is actually a bit of headache due
    to 'daylight savings time'. DST varies from timezone to timezone
    considerably and requires a fair bit of data to do the calculations
    correctly. I'll put it on the list to re-review whether we can move
    the OS APIs we are using forward to allow a greater range of dates
    without us having to implement the functionality and include the
    data ourselves.


Kay turned me onto this fine video which goes into some of these
challenges in more detail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5wpm-gesOY

So yes, supporting more formats is highly desirable.  And since we often
need to convert entire lists of time/date info from seconds into
something human-readable, it would be best if done in the engine.

But it's just not a trivial thing to do.


 > And ideally "the monthnames" and "the weekdaynames" would be
 > localized automatically by the engine if there was a "my language is"
 > option in the LC preferences.

The preference is expressible through the useSystemDate property.

This is more useful than a more general setting because it gives us as
developers the option of working with time and dates in a consistent
format when that's what we need, and also displaying the results of our
program's work in a localized format when that's what we need.

Having a property to govern this leaves us in control of when
consistency is more important than end-user display.  A program will
often do many things with dates (such as comparing them, sorting, etc.),
and only at the end of our program does it display the result to the
user.  IMO the decision to favor consistency by default is more useful
for a programming language.

Besides, IDE preferences only affect the IDE, so they wouldn't help us
when we ship our apps made with it.  In fact, it could easily become an
anti-feature by giving the false appearance that dates are always
localized by default, when we'll later discover that's now how the
engine works.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Internet date

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
J. Landman Gay wrote:

 > I am surprised that the day and month names aren't in the user's
 > language though, I thought they would be.

It may help to consider the use case most RFCs address.  While a
developer can choose anything they like to display to a human consumer
of information, most RFC-based time/date formats are designed for
machine consumption, where consistency is more important than the
ever-changing nuances involved in localization.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Fwd: Re: Internet date

Richard Gaskin
This didn't seem to go through - resending:

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: Internet date
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:18:21 -0700
From: Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

> I am surprised that the day and month names aren't in the user's
> language though, I thought they would be.

It may help to consider the use case most RFCs address.  While a
developer can choose anything they like to display to a human consumer
of information, most RFC-based time/date formats are designed for
machine consumption, where consistency is more important than the
ever-changing nuances involved in localization.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Internet date

Graham Samuel-4
Richard, the original of this message ended up in the Junk folder on my Mac with [Virus Error] prefixed to the Subject line.

Just FYI

Graham

> On 1 Nov 2016, at 19:50, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This didn't seem to go through - resending:
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: Re: Internet date
> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:18:21 -0700
> From: Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> J. Landman Gay wrote:
>
>> I am surprised that the day and month names aren't in the user's
>> language though, I thought they would be.
>
> It may help to consider the use case most RFCs address.  While a developer can choose anything they like to display to a human consumer of information, most RFC-based time/date formats are designed for machine consumption, where consistency is more important than the ever-changing nuances involved in localization.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: Internet date

Bob Sneidar-2
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
Someone a while back posted an article someone did about implementing global time into their app. By the time he got through all the variations and exceptions between zones, countries, specific territories and states, my head was spinning. Hawaii for instance does not use DST, as is the case for a few other states. China has one time zone for the entire country, despite it covering 5 zones. Imagine stepping across the border in the far west.

Bob S


On Nov 1, 2016, at 10:48 , Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Generally,
  date/time processing isn't all that hard...

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Re: Internet date

Richard Gaskin
Bob Sneidar wrote:

 > On Nov 1, 2016, at 10:48 , Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >
 > Generally,
 >   date/time processing isn't all that hard...

That wasn't me.  That was me quoting someone else, to which I replied:

    ...it's just not a trivial thing to do.

I've read enough of Kay's good links on the subject to know better. :)

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
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