JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

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JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Todd Fabacher
Hello LiveCode community,

At Digital Pomegranate we are very excited about the update to LiveCode
HTML5. We already have several projects that we plan on using the platform
for. Since our LiveCode team has only a little experience in JavaScript, we
are thinking of creating a LiveCode.js. This will be both a LC substack
that wraps a Javascript function library which would be in a file named
LiveCode.js.

Our thinking is it would have 5+ core functionalities that woul dbe shared
by most HTML5 apps.  I think this would be a great community project and
help people who may not be so familiar with Javascript and can stay focused
on LiceCode.

Communications
tsNet has given LiveCode async server communications, the good news is
Javascript has had this functionality for quite some time. We would need a
simple wrapper of the XMLHttpRequest functionality in LiveCode.js, so it
seems seamless in Livecode.

I know LC can call the browser's javascript, but can the JS do a callback
to LiveCode? It would be great if we could do sockets in JS and create a
two way communications system.

RestAPI services
I have seen recent notes about using revIgniter as a REST server, and there
are many other options available. We use mostly WP and the WP RestAPI.

Remote Storage
Mark's LiveCloud is a great option and there are several different options.
As I said, we mostly use WP, but we also use Node.js w/ mongodb. The
LiveCode.js  will just need a simple way of taking XML. JSON or an encoded
array and sending it to the remote storage of choice and returning the
values.

Local Storage
The ability to create and use a local DB within the local browser. My
understanding is that LC HTML5 will not because to utilize the database
library, so we will have to use Javascript localStorage. We just need to
create a controller that will connect LC to create, read and write to the
local DB. Javascript even has a way to store the DB and can be accessed for
the next session.

http://www.w3schools.com/html/html5_webstorage.asp

File Picker & Uploaded
Not use how to do this in HTML5, but we will need a way to select a file
and upload it to a server. We could use an HTML+JS dialog box to do it.

Best,

Todd
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Roger Eller
File picker should not have to be built in another language, in my
opinion.  Ask or Answer file SHOULD just work.  Again, my opinion.  This is
LiveCode after all.

~Roger

On Nov 24, 2016 10:49 AM, "Todd Fabacher" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello LiveCode community,
>
> At Digital Pomegranate we are very excited about the update to LiveCode
> HTML5. We already have several projects that we plan on using the platform
> for. Since our LiveCode team has only a little experience in JavaScript, we
> are thinking of creating a LiveCode.js. This will be both a LC substack
> that wraps a Javascript function library which would be in a file named
> LiveCode.js.
>
> Our thinking is it would have 5+ core functionalities that woul dbe shared
> by most HTML5 apps.  I think this would be a great community project and
> help people who may not be so familiar with Javascript and can stay focused
> on LiceCode.
>
> Communications
> tsNet has given LiveCode async server communications, the good news is
> Javascript has had this functionality for quite some time. We would need a
> simple wrapper of the XMLHttpRequest functionality in LiveCode.js, so it
> seems seamless in Livecode.
>
> I know LC can call the browser's javascript, but can the JS do a callback
> to LiveCode? It would be great if we could do sockets in JS and create a
> two way communications system.
>
> RestAPI services
> I have seen recent notes about using revIgniter as a REST server, and there
> are many other options available. We use mostly WP and the WP RestAPI.
>
> Remote Storage
> Mark's LiveCloud is a great option and there are several different options.
> As I said, we mostly use WP, but we also use Node.js w/ mongodb. The
> LiveCode.js  will just need a simple way of taking XML. JSON or an encoded
> array and sending it to the remote storage of choice and returning the
> values.
>
> Local Storage
> The ability to create and use a local DB within the local browser. My
> understanding is that LC HTML5 will not because to utilize the database
> library, so we will have to use Javascript localStorage. We just need to
> create a controller that will connect LC to create, read and write to the
> local DB. Javascript even has a way to store the DB and can be accessed for
> the next session.
>
> http://www.w3schools.com/html/html5_webstorage.asp
>
> File Picker & Uploaded
> Not use how to do this in HTML5, but we will need a way to select a file
> and upload it to a server. We could use an HTML+JS dialog box to do it.
>
> Best,
>
> Todd
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Mark Waddingham-2
Indeed.

Once we have JS which 'does a similar thing' to answer file (or any other OS related piece of syntax) - hooking it up to that command is relatively straightforward.

The hard part is writing the JavaScript implementations of the various OS services we are so used to using directly in LC.

It is important to remember that browsers give no direct access to OS APIs, they are sandboxed and attempt to mitigate security issues as much as they can.

The only system type functionality you get is that exposed by supported JS APIs a given browser has.

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 24 Nov 2016, at 18:41, Roger Eller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> File picker should not have to be built in another language, in my
> opinion.  Ask or Answer file SHOULD just work.  Again, my opinion.  This is
> LiveCode after all.
>
> ~Roger
>
>> On Nov 24, 2016 10:49 AM, "Todd Fabacher" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello LiveCode community,
>>
>> At Digital Pomegranate we are very excited about the update to LiveCode
>> HTML5. We already have several projects that we plan on using the platform
>> for. Since our LiveCode team has only a little experience in JavaScript, we
>> are thinking of creating a LiveCode.js. This will be both a LC substack
>> that wraps a Javascript function library which would be in a file named
>> LiveCode.js.
>>
>> Our thinking is it would have 5+ core functionalities that woul dbe shared
>> by most HTML5 apps.  I think this would be a great community project and
>> help people who may not be so familiar with Javascript and can stay focused
>> on LiceCode.
>>
>> Communications
>> tsNet has given LiveCode async server communications, the good news is
>> Javascript has had this functionality for quite some time. We would need a
>> simple wrapper of the XMLHttpRequest functionality in LiveCode.js, so it
>> seems seamless in Livecode.
>>
>> I know LC can call the browser's javascript, but can the JS do a callback
>> to LiveCode? It would be great if we could do sockets in JS and create a
>> two way communications system.
>>
>> RestAPI services
>> I have seen recent notes about using revIgniter as a REST server, and there
>> are many other options available. We use mostly WP and the WP RestAPI.
>>
>> Remote Storage
>> Mark's LiveCloud is a great option and there are several different options.
>> As I said, we mostly use WP, but we also use Node.js w/ mongodb. The
>> LiveCode.js  will just need a simple way of taking XML. JSON or an encoded
>> array and sending it to the remote storage of choice and returning the
>> values.
>>
>> Local Storage
>> The ability to create and use a local DB within the local browser. My
>> understanding is that LC HTML5 will not because to utilize the database
>> library, so we will have to use Javascript localStorage. We just need to
>> create a controller that will connect LC to create, read and write to the
>> local DB. Javascript even has a way to store the DB and can be accessed for
>> the next session.
>>
>> http://www.w3schools.com/html/html5_webstorage.asp
>>
>> File Picker & Uploaded
>> Not use how to do this in HTML5, but we will need a way to select a file
>> and upload it to a server. We could use an HTML+JS dialog box to do it.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Todd
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

_______________________________________________
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Roger Eller
Mark,

Would it be possible to have a LC executable (something resembling LC
Server) on a Desktop, allowing the browser to access the local machine by
way of that backgrounded process?  Could it be an out of the box capability
only turned on by the machine's primary user, via the html5 application
before it fully launches?  Similar to how Android tells the user what
permissions are needed is how I imagine it would present itself.

~Roger



Roger Eller
Graphics Systems Analyst

803 North Maple Street P: 864.967.1625
Simpsonville, SC 29681 C: 864.908.0337
SealedAir.com <http://www.sealedair.com/> [hidden email]
<[hidden email]>



On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Mark Waddingham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Indeed.
>
> Once we have JS which 'does a similar thing' to answer file (or any other
> OS related piece of syntax) - hooking it up to that command is relatively
> straightforward.
>
> The hard part is writing the JavaScript implementations of the various OS
> services we are so used to using directly in LC.
>
> It is important to remember that browsers give no direct access to OS
> APIs, they are sandboxed and attempt to mitigate security issues as much as
> they can.
>
> The only system type functionality you get is that exposed by supported JS
> APIs a given browser has.
>
> Mark.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 24 Nov 2016, at 18:41, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > File picker should not have to be built in another language, in my
> > opinion.  Ask or Answer file SHOULD just work.  Again, my opinion.  This
> is
> > LiveCode after all.
> >
> > ~Roger
> >
> >> On Nov 24, 2016 10:49 AM, "Todd Fabacher" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello LiveCode community,
> >>
> >> At Digital Pomegranate we are very excited about the update to LiveCode
> >> HTML5. We already have several projects that we plan on using the
> platform
> >> for. Since our LiveCode team has only a little experience in
> JavaScript, we
> >> are thinking of creating a LiveCode.js. This will be both a LC substack
> >> that wraps a Javascript function library which would be in a file named
> >> LiveCode.js.
> >>
> >> Our thinking is it would have 5+ core functionalities that woul dbe
> shared
> >> by most HTML5 apps.  I think this would be a great community project and
> >> help people who may not be so familiar with Javascript and can stay
> focused
> >> on LiceCode.
> >>
> >> Communications
> >> tsNet has given LiveCode async server communications, the good news is
> >> Javascript has had this functionality for quite some time. We would
> need a
> >> simple wrapper of the XMLHttpRequest functionality in LiveCode.js, so it
> >> seems seamless in Livecode.
> >>
> >> I know LC can call the browser's javascript, but can the JS do a
> callback
> >> to LiveCode? It would be great if we could do sockets in JS and create a
> >> two way communications system.
> >>
> >> RestAPI services
> >> I have seen recent notes about using revIgniter as a REST server, and
> there
> >> are many other options available. We use mostly WP and the WP RestAPI.
> >>
> >> Remote Storage
> >> Mark's LiveCloud is a great option and there are several different
> options.
> >> As I said, we mostly use WP, but we also use Node.js w/ mongodb. The
> >> LiveCode.js  will just need a simple way of taking XML. JSON or an
> encoded
> >> array and sending it to the remote storage of choice and returning the
> >> values.
> >>
> >> Local Storage
> >> The ability to create and use a local DB within the local browser. My
> >> understanding is that LC HTML5 will not because to utilize the database
> >> library, so we will have to use Javascript localStorage. We just need to
> >> create a controller that will connect LC to create, read and write to
> the
> >> local DB. Javascript even has a way to store the DB and can be accessed
> for
> >> the next session.
> >>
> >> http://www.w3schools.com/html/html5_webstorage.asp
> >>
> >> File Picker & Uploaded
> >> Not use how to do this in HTML5, but we will need a way to select a file
> >> and upload it to a server. We could use an HTML+JS dialog box to do it.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Todd
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Mark Waddingham-2
The connection could possibly be made by using web sockets I guess (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

However, the user would have to download, install and run the helper process... At which point you might as well be running a desktop
app I'd think.

Browsers do not and will almost certainly never allow execution of (native) subprocesses via JavaScript. (Nor any kind of native code which is not part of the browser executable - well, outside the browsers very tight sandbox).

Mark.



Sent from my iPhone

> On 24 Nov 2016, at 20:00, Roger Eller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> Would it be possible to have a LC executable (something resembling LC
> Server) on a Desktop, allowing the browser to access the local machine by
> way of that backgrounded process?  Could it be an out of the box capability
> only turned on by the machine's primary user, via the html5 application
> before it fully launches?  Similar to how Android tells the user what
> permissions are needed is how I imagine it would present itself.
>
> ~Roger
>
>
>
> Roger Eller
> Graphics Systems Analyst
>
> 803 North Maple Street P: 864.967.1625
> Simpsonville, SC 29681 C: 864.908.0337
> SealedAir.com <http://www.sealedair.com/> [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Mark Waddingham <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Indeed.
>>
>> Once we have JS which 'does a similar thing' to answer file (or any other
>> OS related piece of syntax) - hooking it up to that command is relatively
>> straightforward.
>>
>> The hard part is writing the JavaScript implementations of the various OS
>> services we are so used to using directly in LC.
>>
>> It is important to remember that browsers give no direct access to OS
>> APIs, they are sandboxed and attempt to mitigate security issues as much as
>> they can.
>>
>> The only system type functionality you get is that exposed by supported JS
>> APIs a given browser has.
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>> On 24 Nov 2016, at 18:41, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> File picker should not have to be built in another language, in my
>>> opinion.  Ask or Answer file SHOULD just work.  Again, my opinion.  This
>> is
>>> LiveCode after all.
>>>
>>> ~Roger
>>>
>>>> On Nov 24, 2016 10:49 AM, "Todd Fabacher" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello LiveCode community,
>>>>
>>>> At Digital Pomegranate we are very excited about the update to LiveCode
>>>> HTML5. We already have several projects that we plan on using the
>> platform
>>>> for. Since our LiveCode team has only a little experience in
>> JavaScript, we
>>>> are thinking of creating a LiveCode.js. This will be both a LC substack
>>>> that wraps a Javascript function library which would be in a file named
>>>> LiveCode.js.
>>>>
>>>> Our thinking is it would have 5+ core functionalities that woul dbe
>> shared
>>>> by most HTML5 apps.  I think this would be a great community project and
>>>> help people who may not be so familiar with Javascript and can stay
>> focused
>>>> on LiceCode.
>>>>
>>>> Communications
>>>> tsNet has given LiveCode async server communications, the good news is
>>>> Javascript has had this functionality for quite some time. We would
>> need a
>>>> simple wrapper of the XMLHttpRequest functionality in LiveCode.js, so it
>>>> seems seamless in Livecode.
>>>>
>>>> I know LC can call the browser's javascript, but can the JS do a
>> callback
>>>> to LiveCode? It would be great if we could do sockets in JS and create a
>>>> two way communications system.
>>>>
>>>> RestAPI services
>>>> I have seen recent notes about using revIgniter as a REST server, and
>> there
>>>> are many other options available. We use mostly WP and the WP RestAPI.
>>>>
>>>> Remote Storage
>>>> Mark's LiveCloud is a great option and there are several different
>> options.
>>>> As I said, we mostly use WP, but we also use Node.js w/ mongodb. The
>>>> LiveCode.js  will just need a simple way of taking XML. JSON or an
>> encoded
>>>> array and sending it to the remote storage of choice and returning the
>>>> values.
>>>>
>>>> Local Storage
>>>> The ability to create and use a local DB within the local browser. My
>>>> understanding is that LC HTML5 will not because to utilize the database
>>>> library, so we will have to use Javascript localStorage. We just need to
>>>> create a controller that will connect LC to create, read and write to
>> the
>>>> local DB. Javascript even has a way to store the DB and can be accessed
>> for
>>>> the next session.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.w3schools.com/html/html5_webstorage.asp
>>>>
>>>> File Picker & Uploaded
>>>> Not use how to do this in HTML5, but we will need a way to select a file
>>>> and upload it to a server. We could use an HTML+JS dialog box to do it.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Todd
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

_______________________________________________
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Mark Waddingham-2
I should perhaps say that whilst what I'm saying above sounds somewhat doom and gloom, it isn't.

Browsers have a huge responsibility to keep your computer safe from malicious attack (there are people who spend all their time trying to find holes to wriggle through and then exploit).

Browser JS APIs are rich and diverse, and become more so each year.

For most things it will be a case of 'when', and not 'if'.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 24 Nov 2016, at 20:08, Mark Waddingham <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The connection could possibly be made by using web sockets I guess (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
>
> However, the user would have to download, install and run the helper process... At which point you might as well be running a desktop
> app I'd think.
>
> Browsers do not and will almost certainly never allow execution of (native) subprocesses via JavaScript. (Nor any kind of native code which is not part of the browser executable - well, outside the browsers very tight sandbox).
>
> Mark.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 24 Nov 2016, at 20:00, Roger Eller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Would it be possible to have a LC executable (something resembling LC
>> Server) on a Desktop, allowing the browser to access the local machine by
>> way of that backgrounded process?  Could it be an out of the box capability
>> only turned on by the machine's primary user, via the html5 application
>> before it fully launches?  Similar to how Android tells the user what
>> permissions are needed is how I imagine it would present itself.
>>
>> ~Roger
>>
>>
>>
>> Roger Eller
>> Graphics Systems Analyst
>>
>> 803 North Maple Street P: 864.967.1625
>> Simpsonville, SC 29681 C: 864.908.0337
>> SealedAir.com <http://www.sealedair.com/> [hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Mark Waddingham <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Indeed.
>>>
>>> Once we have JS which 'does a similar thing' to answer file (or any other
>>> OS related piece of syntax) - hooking it up to that command is relatively
>>> straightforward.
>>>
>>> The hard part is writing the JavaScript implementations of the various OS
>>> services we are so used to using directly in LC.
>>>
>>> It is important to remember that browsers give no direct access to OS
>>> APIs, they are sandboxed and attempt to mitigate security issues as much as
>>> they can.
>>>
>>> The only system type functionality you get is that exposed by supported JS
>>> APIs a given browser has.
>>>
>>> Mark.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>>> On 24 Nov 2016, at 18:41, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> File picker should not have to be built in another language, in my
>>>> opinion.  Ask or Answer file SHOULD just work.  Again, my opinion.  This
>>> is
>>>> LiveCode after all.
>>>>
>>>> ~Roger
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 24, 2016 10:49 AM, "Todd Fabacher" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello LiveCode community,
>>>>>
>>>>> At Digital Pomegranate we are very excited about the update to LiveCode
>>>>> HTML5. We already have several projects that we plan on using the
>>> platform
>>>>> for. Since our LiveCode team has only a little experience in
>>> JavaScript, we
>>>>> are thinking of creating a LiveCode.js. This will be both a LC substack
>>>>> that wraps a Javascript function library which would be in a file named
>>>>> LiveCode.js.
>>>>>
>>>>> Our thinking is it would have 5+ core functionalities that woul dbe
>>> shared
>>>>> by most HTML5 apps.  I think this would be a great community project and
>>>>> help people who may not be so familiar with Javascript and can stay
>>> focused
>>>>> on LiceCode.
>>>>>
>>>>> Communications
>>>>> tsNet has given LiveCode async server communications, the good news is
>>>>> Javascript has had this functionality for quite some time. We would
>>> need a
>>>>> simple wrapper of the XMLHttpRequest functionality in LiveCode.js, so it
>>>>> seems seamless in Livecode.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know LC can call the browser's javascript, but can the JS do a
>>> callback
>>>>> to LiveCode? It would be great if we could do sockets in JS and create a
>>>>> two way communications system.
>>>>>
>>>>> RestAPI services
>>>>> I have seen recent notes about using revIgniter as a REST server, and
>>> there
>>>>> are many other options available. We use mostly WP and the WP RestAPI.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remote Storage
>>>>> Mark's LiveCloud is a great option and there are several different
>>> options.
>>>>> As I said, we mostly use WP, but we also use Node.js w/ mongodb. The
>>>>> LiveCode.js  will just need a simple way of taking XML. JSON or an
>>> encoded
>>>>> array and sending it to the remote storage of choice and returning the
>>>>> values.
>>>>>
>>>>> Local Storage
>>>>> The ability to create and use a local DB within the local browser. My
>>>>> understanding is that LC HTML5 will not because to utilize the database
>>>>> library, so we will have to use Javascript localStorage. We just need to
>>>>> create a controller that will connect LC to create, read and write to
>>> the
>>>>> local DB. Javascript even has a way to store the DB and can be accessed
>>> for
>>>>> the next session.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.w3schools.com/html/html5_webstorage.asp
>>>>>
>>>>> File Picker & Uploaded
>>>>> Not use how to do this in HTML5, but we will need a way to select a file
>>>>> and upload it to a server. We could use an HTML+JS dialog box to do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Todd
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Roger Eller
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
I disagree that you might as well be running a desktop app.  The download
of the helper would only be necessary once (like the old RevWeb plugin).
Back when we had the RevWeb plugin, my browser based apps just worked.
Being in a position where localized automation is primarily what I create
for in-house users, this would allow me to update/maintain to a single
code-source, but without having my hands tied capability-wise by the
browser.

~Roger


On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Mark Waddingham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The connection could possibly be made by using web sockets I guess
> (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
>
> However, the user would have to download, install and run the helper
> process... At which point you might as well be running a desktop
> app I'd think.
>
> Browsers do not and will almost certainly never allow execution of
> (native) subprocesses via JavaScript. (Nor any kind of native code which is
> not part of the browser executable - well, outside the browsers very tight
> sandbox).
>
> Mark.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 24 Nov 2016, at 20:00, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> > Would it be possible to have a LC executable (something resembling LC
> > Server) on a Desktop, allowing the browser to access the local machine by
> > way of that backgrounded process?  Could it be an out of the box
> capability
> > only turned on by the machine's primary user, via the html5 application
> > before it fully launches?  Similar to how Android tells the user what
> > permissions are needed is how I imagine it would present itself.
> >
> > ~Roger
>
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami
I too never quite understood why the RevWeb Plugin was abandoned. The old issue that users resist such downloads, never, IMHO, really materialized… just look at the kJillion extensions for FireFox or Chrome, there is no end in sight.

So the plugin was abandoned, but in the end, hasn't  the team has built the same thing?

 Enscripten with a wrapper for LC?

But instead of being able to deliver that as a "player"  … now the user is forced to download that entire source code with each and every Html5 app built with LC.

I get of course that the framework of the RevWeb Plugin was a completely different architecture… and moving to JS means the browser as an "OS" will be more "at peace with the code,"  so to speak, but yet, why could it not be externalized as a plug-in/helper/player?

I must be very naïve and missing something….perhaps security issues require us to bundle the code with each app, so that 3rd parties can't hack the player for nefarious ends… as Mark says: legions are trying to find ways to break through to your HD…

BR
 

On 11/24/16, 10:42 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Roger Eller" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    I disagree that you might as well be running a desktop app.  The download
    of the helper would only be necessary once (like the old RevWeb plugin).
    Back when we had the RevWeb plugin, my browser based apps just worked.
    Being in a position where localized automation is primarily what I create
    for in-house users, this would allow me to update/maintain to a single
    code-source, but without having my hands tied capability-wise by the
    browser.
   
    ~Roger

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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Todd Fabacher
In reply to this post by Todd Fabacher
Hello Roger, you need to remember almost 50% of web users are on a
non-desktop OS, and almost none of them support plugins like you are
describing. LC HTML5 is what it is...It is an App running in an HTML5
canvas. We will be limited that those restrictions. But I understand where
you are coming from.

What I would like to focus on is what are the current possibilities that we
can capitalize on with the JavaScript integration - NOW. I need a
functioning HTML5 data entry clint for several Apps we are developing.

Mark, One question I had that was NOT answered is..Can a JavaScript
function call a LiveCode function? I know this was added in the LC8 browser.

How do we get started and have the community involved? We can do it and
give it to everyone like we have been doing, but I would like to see if we
can get several people involved who are passionate about making LC HTML5
easier and  more successful. We code just want to do it our way, but the
middle ground so more people will use it, and improve it. Richard, Any
ideas?

--Todd


>I disagree that you might as well be running a desktop app.  The download
>of the helper would only be necessary once (like the old RevWeb plugin).
>Back when we had the RevWeb plugin, my browser based apps just worked.
>Being in a position where localized automation is primarily what I create
>for in-house users, this would allow me to update/maintain to a single
>code-source, but without having my hands tied capability-wise by the
>browser.

>~Roger
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Peter TB Brett
On 25/11/2016 04:38, Todd Fabacher wrote:

> Mark, One question I had that was NOT answered is..Can a JavaScript
> function call a LiveCode function? I know this was added in the LC8 browser.

Hi Todd,

Mark and Kevin are on holiday today, but I'll try and address this for you.

At the moment, JavaScript functions cannot call LiveCode functions.  Our
current plan is to make this work in December or January.

It will be more difficult to implement than the new "do script as
JavaScript" feature, but much easier than making the "url" chunk work
the same way as on other platforms.

The latest idea we've had to make this happen is to let you set the
"javaScriptHandlers" property on a stack.  This will be a list of
message names that the web page is allowed to send to the stack.

We'll then add a JavaScript function to the standalone, that lets you
send a message to the current "defaultStack".  For example:

     Module.LiveCodeSendMessage("<message>", ["<param1>", "<param2>"])

If <message> is not among the lines of the "javaScriptHandlers" of the
defaultStack, then it'll be ignored.  Otherwise, it'll be sent to the
current card of the defaultStack, just like "backKey" message on mobile
platforms, for example.

That's the current plan, anyway.  No doubt it will change a bit once we
start working on it.  Does that broadly answer your question?

Best regards,

                                                Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett <[hidden email]>
LiveCode Technical Project Manager

lcb-mode for Emacs: https://github.com/peter-b/lcb-mode

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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Roger Eller
Roger Eller wrote:

 > I disagree that you might as well be running a desktop app.  The
 > download of the helper would only be necessary once (like the old
 > RevWeb plugin). Back when we had the RevWeb plugin, my browser based
 > apps just worked.
 > Being in a position where localized automation is primarily what I
 > create for in-house users, this would allow me to update/maintain to
 > a single code-source, but without having my hands tied
 > capability-wise by the browser.

That's exactly where a standalone is every bit as valuable as Mark was
suggesting.

We need not make every stack file into a standalone for our users to run it.

All they need is one copy of the LiveCode engine, with just enough code
so it knows where to download more stack files.

Just as a version of the LC engine as a browser plugin can download and
run stack files, any standalone already installed on the user's machine
can do the same.

But like you say, a standalone engine isn't limited to the confines of
the browser, and devs deploying with a standalone never need to think
about how to handle UI elements never intended for their app, like how
to handle the browser's Back button.

In addition to providing a better user experience through a UI dedicated
to the tasks your app supports, "streaming stacks" can be safer too:
with the relatively recent addition of the securityPermissions global
property, it's possible to deliver standalones that download and run
stacks that are safer than nearly any browser.

Most of my work these days is with "streaming apps" - here's my setup:


Client
------
- Standalone
   Contains only enough code to download one stack file from
   our server.

   This is only a little more than:

      go stack "https://somedomain.com/path/to/mainstackfile.livecode"

   ...with some error-checking and one dialog to report errors if
   encountered.

   This standalone is downloaded and installed this only once.  We may
   update it once every year or two when we truly need to update the
   LC engine version we're using, but those times are rare.


Server - Downloads
------------------
- Main Library
   This is the stack file that gets downloaded first.  It contains all
   other code and URLs the app will need to download and run other stack
   files.

   We can completely change all aspects of the app by changing this one
   stack file on our server at any time.

- Other stack files, downloaded as needed:

   - login.livecode -- provides a UI for tasks requiring authentication

   - admin.livecode -- UI for admin tasks for those users who've
                       authenticated with admin privileges.

   - logs.livecode  -- Viewer for server logs to monitor usage and
                       provide diagnostics for errors (see below),

   - other stacks   -- We can create and upload any task-specific UI
                       and/or code as needed, and download-n-run it
                       from any other.

Server - Processing
-------------------
- LC standalone or LC Server running as CGI under Apache, providing:

    - data store access through REST API with CRUD operations

    - authentication and other user services

    - logging

    - anything else we need on the server to support user-specific data
      management and sharing of data for collaborative workflows.



Development
-----------
- Upload Tool - automatically saves stack files I'm working on,
                 compresses them, and uploads them to their respective
                 locations on the server where the client standalone
                 will find them.

                 Many stack files are so small that the compression
                 isn't really necessary, but I'm picky about performance
                 and it never hurts to reduce transfer times where that
                 can be done as easily as using LC's built-in compress
                 and decompress functions.



This setup lets us enhance and refine all aspects of the system at any
time, and the user never needs to update the standalone they've
installed.  They just launch the app and since everything we write comes
from the server they always have the latest build.

I've had more than a few times when I've been in teleconferences with
clients where we're discussing new features, and before the meeting is
over I've already written the code and posted it to the server, and let
them know that all they have to do to get the new feature is restart the
app - as close to real-time updates as one could hope for.

Getting started doesn't require all these parts; I started out with just
one standalone downloading one stack file, and added other capabilities
as I went along.

In fact, as things progress I'm making more use of substacks within the
main downloaded stack file.  This makes things easier for me to build
and keep track of, and since we don't use a lot of heavy media files
like full-screeen raster images, the most complex UI I manage (which has
dozens of substacks) compresses down to only 648k and flies over even a
modest DSL connection in just a couple seconds.

Many of use use "go stack..." commands in our posts to this list because
it really is that easy to use HTTP to deliver stack files.

Another simple example included with every LC install is LiveNet
(formerly RevNet), accessible in the IDE from Development -> Plugins ->
GoLiveNet.  That plugin downloads a small stack file which then obtains
data and other resources from more than a dozen sources around the
world, but the user never needs to think about any of that because LC
makes it so easy for our apps to do the downloading for them.

I can't say enough good things about LC's ability to run downloaded
stacks.  It's one of the most powerful features in the engine, and
perhaps the most under-appreciated.

It's nearly everything you want with browser-based delivery, but able to
handle app designs that go far beyond the browser, with richer features
and optionally greater security as well.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Matt Maier
Richard,
Thanks for that explanation. I've heard you mention this setup several
times before but this is the most detail I've seen you put in one place.

Clarification question: do you cache the last stacks downloaded in case the
user isn't connected to a network?

On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Roger Eller wrote:
>
> > I disagree that you might as well be running a desktop app.  The
> > download of the helper would only be necessary once (like the old
> > RevWeb plugin). Back when we had the RevWeb plugin, my browser based
> > apps just worked.
> > Being in a position where localized automation is primarily what I
> > create for in-house users, this would allow me to update/maintain to
> > a single code-source, but without having my hands tied
> > capability-wise by the browser.
>
> That's exactly where a standalone is every bit as valuable as Mark was
> suggesting.
>
> We need not make every stack file into a standalone for our users to run
> it.
>
> All they need is one copy of the LiveCode engine, with just enough code so
> it knows where to download more stack files.
>
> Just as a version of the LC engine as a browser plugin can download and
> run stack files, any standalone already installed on the user's machine can
> do the same.
>
> But like you say, a standalone engine isn't limited to the confines of the
> browser, and devs deploying with a standalone never need to think about how
> to handle UI elements never intended for their app, like how to handle the
> browser's Back button.
>
> In addition to providing a better user experience through a UI dedicated
> to the tasks your app supports, "streaming stacks" can be safer too: with
> the relatively recent addition of the securityPermissions global property,
> it's possible to deliver standalones that download and run stacks that are
> safer than nearly any browser.
>
> Most of my work these days is with "streaming apps" - here's my setup:
>
>
> Client
> ------
> - Standalone
>   Contains only enough code to download one stack file from
>   our server.
>
>   This is only a little more than:
>
>      go stack "https://somedomain.com/path/to/mainstackfile.livecode"
>
>   ...with some error-checking and one dialog to report errors if
>   encountered.
>
>   This standalone is downloaded and installed this only once.  We may
>   update it once every year or two when we truly need to update the
>   LC engine version we're using, but those times are rare.
>
>
> Server - Downloads
> ------------------
> - Main Library
>   This is the stack file that gets downloaded first.  It contains all
>   other code and URLs the app will need to download and run other stack
>   files.
>
>   We can completely change all aspects of the app by changing this one
>   stack file on our server at any time.
>
> - Other stack files, downloaded as needed:
>
>   - login.livecode -- provides a UI for tasks requiring authentication
>
>   - admin.livecode -- UI for admin tasks for those users who've
>                       authenticated with admin privileges.
>
>   - logs.livecode  -- Viewer for server logs to monitor usage and
>                       provide diagnostics for errors (see below),
>
>   - other stacks   -- We can create and upload any task-specific UI
>                       and/or code as needed, and download-n-run it
>                       from any other.
>
> Server - Processing
> -------------------
> - LC standalone or LC Server running as CGI under Apache, providing:
>
>    - data store access through REST API with CRUD operations
>
>    - authentication and other user services
>
>    - logging
>
>    - anything else we need on the server to support user-specific data
>      management and sharing of data for collaborative workflows.
>
>
>
> Development
> -----------
> - Upload Tool - automatically saves stack files I'm working on,
>                 compresses them, and uploads them to their respective
>                 locations on the server where the client standalone
>                 will find them.
>
>                 Many stack files are so small that the compression
>                 isn't really necessary, but I'm picky about performance
>                 and it never hurts to reduce transfer times where that
>                 can be done as easily as using LC's built-in compress
>                 and decompress functions.
>
>
>
> This setup lets us enhance and refine all aspects of the system at any
> time, and the user never needs to update the standalone they've installed.
> They just launch the app and since everything we write comes from the
> server they always have the latest build.
>
> I've had more than a few times when I've been in teleconferences with
> clients where we're discussing new features, and before the meeting is over
> I've already written the code and posted it to the server, and let them
> know that all they have to do to get the new feature is restart the app -
> as close to real-time updates as one could hope for.
>
> Getting started doesn't require all these parts; I started out with just
> one standalone downloading one stack file, and added other capabilities as
> I went along.
>
> In fact, as things progress I'm making more use of substacks within the
> main downloaded stack file.  This makes things easier for me to build and
> keep track of, and since we don't use a lot of heavy media files like
> full-screeen raster images, the most complex UI I manage (which has dozens
> of substacks) compresses down to only 648k and flies over even a modest DSL
> connection in just a couple seconds.
>
> Many of use use "go stack..." commands in our posts to this list because
> it really is that easy to use HTTP to deliver stack files.
>
> Another simple example included with every LC install is LiveNet (formerly
> RevNet), accessible in the IDE from Development -> Plugins -> GoLiveNet.
> That plugin downloads a small stack file which then obtains data and other
> resources from more than a dozen sources around the world, but the user
> never needs to think about any of that because LC makes it so easy for our
> apps to do the downloading for them.
>
> I can't say enough good things about LC's ability to run downloaded
> stacks.  It's one of the most powerful features in the engine, and perhaps
> the most under-appreciated.
>
> It's nearly everything you want with browser-based delivery, but able to
> handle app designs that go far beyond the browser, with richer features and
> optionally greater security as well.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  ____________________________________________________________________
>  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
Actually I have two long running apps (15 years) working exactly has Richard describes. Indeed is has so many advantages. I love being on SKYPE with one of our volunteers who may have a small complaint about the UX or wants to added something to the back end database… I quicklyl fix it and just tell them

"OK, close that window and click the button again"

It fetches a fresh stack/data from dbase on the server, and what they wanted is suddenly there without any upgrade process.

Initially I always get this "wow, that is so cool!" response from them…

It would be awesome if we could do this on mobile.  We talked about the before.. I think you can do this on Android.

  BR
 

On 11/25/16, 6:02 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    I can't say enough good things about LC's ability to run downloaded
    stacks.  It's one of the most powerful features in the engine, and
    perhaps the most under-appreciated.
   
    It's nearly everything you want with browser-based delivery, but able to
    handle app designs that go far beyond the browser, with richer features
    and optionally greater security as well.

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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Matt Maier
Matt Maier wrote:

 > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
[a bunch of stuff too long to quote but available at:
<http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2016-November/232938.html>]

 > Richard,
 > Thanks for that explanation. I've heard you mention this setup several
 > times before but this is the most detail I've seen you put in one
 > place.

Thanks for the feedback.  Glad it was helpful.

 > Clarification question: do you cache the last stacks downloaded in
 > case the user isn't connected to a network?

Not currently, at least not for stacks.

Where I use "streaming apps" the requirements are often very similar to
what we need from web apps, involving lots of data communication with
the server.  If we don't have a connection there's little meaningful
work that these apps can do, so I haven't bothered with an offline mode
for them.

I do, however, have a data cache for one of these apps.  That one's a
CMS for specialized medical content, and the time our editors can spend
on a document can be long, often spanning many days.  To ensure the
content isn't lost between sessions we use a check-out/check-in system
in which the checked-out document is stored in a local cache until it's
checked back in and safely confirmed on the server.

I could extend the cache subsystem to handle stacks as well, but thus
far I haven't needed it.


Tip:  if you need to cache stacks you can make that super-easy by
accompanying each stack file on the server with a small manifest-like
text file that contains the build number of the most recently-posted
stack.  So on the server you might have something like:

   somestack.livecode
   somestack.info

...where the *.info file contains essential metadata.

With that you can quickly compare the version/build number of a local
stack file (stored in a custom property; I tend to use "ufwVersion" but
the key could be any memorable string) with what's on the server with a
super-fast download of that small text file.

I use a simple metadata file for the auto-update feature in my
devolution plugin and some of my apps:
<http://fourthworld.com/products/devolution/index.html>

While most of my stuff includes a human-optimmized version number for
the About box, I generally maintain an integer build numbers so version
comparisons are dirt simple.

Even simpler:  you can have your uploading or standalone manager
auto-increment your build number whenever you post, so you set it up
once and never need to think about it again.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Roger Eller
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
On Nov 25, 2016 11:03 AM, "Richard Gaskin" <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> Roger Eller wrote:
>
> > Back when we had the RevWeb plugin, my browser based apps just worked.
>
> That's exactly where a standalone is every bit as valuable as Mark was
suggesting...........
>
> I can't say enough good things about LC's ability to run downloaded
stacks.  It's one of the most powerful features in the engine, and perhaps
the most under-appreciated.
>
> It's nearly everything you want with browser-based delivery, but able to
handle app designs that go far beyond the browser, with richer features and
optionally greater security as well.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin

So, since the days shortly following the death of our dear plugin, I have
re-factored all of my stacks to be delivered to a custom client exe.  I
even utilize LiveCode server.  It's a little symphony of code and
communication between standalone, stacks, and server scripts.

~Roger
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Bob Sneidar-2
In reply to this post by Todd Fabacher
I personally have founf the current version of Licecode to be too buggy for my needs. You may have a different ticksperience. :-)

Bob S


On Nov 24, 2016, at 07:49 , Todd Fabacher <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Our thinking is it would have 5+ core functionalities that woul dbe shared
by most HTML5 apps.  I think this would be a great community project and
help people who may not be so familiar with Javascript and can stay focused
on LiceCode.

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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Peter TB Brett


On 28/11/2016 16:00, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> I personally have founf the current version of Licecode to be too
> buggy for my needs. You may have a different ticksperience. :-)

Hi Bob,

Please can you let me know which bugs are causing you particular
trouble?  I could take a look and see whether they're something we can
get fixed sooner rather than later.

                                                  Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett <[hidden email]>
LiveCode Technical Project Manager

lcb-mode for Emacs: https://github.com/peter-b/lcb-mode

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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Bob Sneidar-2
It was a joke Peter. Buggy? Licecode? Ticksperience??

Bob S


> On Nov 28, 2016, at 08:16 , Peter TB Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 28/11/2016 16:00, Bob Sneidar wrote:
>> I personally have founf the current version of Licecode to be too
>> buggy for my needs. You may have a different ticksperience. :-)
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Please can you let me know which bugs are causing you particular
> trouble?  I could take a look and see whether they're something we can
> get fixed sooner rather than later.
>
>                                                 Peter
>
> --
> Dr Peter Brett <[hidden email]>
> LiveCode Technical Project Manager
>
> lcb-mode for Emacs: https://github.com/peter-b/lcb-mode
>
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

Peter TB Brett


On 28/11/2016 16:19, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> It was a joke Peter. Buggy? Licecode? Ticksperience??

Apparently I missed it.  Sorry!

                                     Peter :-)

--
Dr Peter Brett <[hidden email]>
LiveCode Technical Project Manager

lcb-mode for Emacs: https://github.com/peter-b/lcb-mode

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