Keyboards

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Keyboards

Mike Kerner
Well, the possibility of being able to use RR...ERR LC to develop iOS apps
caused me to buy a Mac Mini, my first desktop in a while.  For the first
time in a long time I'm looking for a keyboard.

Since I spend a lot of my day banging on keys, I'm looking for something
that doesn't feel like 5h!7, and will put up with the abuse.

I WANT to like the Apple-branded keyboards, but my first impression is that
I don't like the chicklets on the wireless version, and I think I want a
full 105 key keyboard.

I've been to Best Buy but I haven't found one that feels good under my
fingers.

Suggestions?

--
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: Keyboards

Stephen Barncard-4
HI, Mike,

There are actually two models, the full size USB 105 key version with num
keypad, and the wireless, smaller version.

if you haven't tried one of the 'newer' mac keyboards, they're not as
impractical and non-tactile as they look.
They take a little getting used to, but they are not chicklets, as in the
Texas Instruments personal computer disaster. I now prefer them over PC-like
keyboards. They're light and easy to pack in luggage.

In other words, don't knock it until you've actually used one. They will
take the abuse, but of course any keyboard used every day will get worn out
after a few years. I'm buying another one of these things soon.

On 22 October 2010 07:35, Mike Kerner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, the possibility of being able to use RR...ERR LC to develop iOS apps
> caused me to buy a Mac Mini, my first desktop in a while.  For the first
> time in a long time I'm looking for a keyboard.
>
> Since I spend a lot of my day banging on keys, I'm looking for something
> that doesn't feel like 5h!7, and will put up with the abuse.
>
> I WANT to like the Apple-branded keyboards, but my first impression is that
> I don't like the chicklets on the wireless version, and I think I want a
> full 105 key keyboard.
>
> I've been to Best Buy but I haven't found one that feels good under my
> fingers.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>



--



Stephen Barncard
San Francisco Ca. USA

more about sqb  <http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar>
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Re: Keyboards

Peter Alcibiades
In reply to this post by Mike Kerner
The Apple corded full USB is very nice.  Far better than the Cherry Strait which is a contender also, but the keycaps wear off.  Otherwise, Logitech OEM is very good value and everyone really likes it.  Or the extreme clickety clack made by PCKeyboards, which if they are into that sort of thing, people also like a lot.
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Re: Keyboards

Leland Vandervort
I use the apple corded keyboard at work, and for home I use the wireless
"short" version (without the numeric keypad)... It took me a few days to get
used to the one at home, but now I'm equally comfortable on both.  At least
now I don't have to tote my keyboard around with me along with my Mbpro.
23" LED Cinema display with "docking" cables in both locations so basically
works like an iMac ;)

Now if only I can get used to the "Magic Mouse"  ;-)

Leland



Le 22/10/2010 19:26, « Peter Alcibiades » <[hidden email]> a
écrit :

>
> The Apple corded full USB is very nice.  Far better than the Cherry Strait
> which is a contender also, but the keycaps wear off.  Otherwise, Logitech
> OEM is very good value and everyone really likes it.  Or the extreme
> clickety clack made by PCKeyboards, which if they are into that sort of
> thing, people also like a lot.

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Re: Keyboards

Colin Holgate-2
I ordered a few items the other day, one of which is the shorter wireless keyboard. I'm expecting to get on with it ok, because I full time use a MacBook Pro keyboard, which is more or less the same set of keys.

I also ordered a Magic Trackpad. Will be interesting to see how that goes.



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Re: Keyboards

slylabs13
In reply to this post by Mike Kerner
I really like the Logitech ones. The only real advice I can give you is when it comes to keyboards, "cheap" refers to both price AND quality, and hence longevity.

Bob


On Oct 22, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Mike Kerner wrote:

> Well, the possibility of being able to use RR...ERR LC to develop iOS apps
> caused me to buy a Mac Mini, my first desktop in a while.  For the first
> time in a long time I'm looking for a keyboard.
>
> Since I spend a lot of my day banging on keys, I'm looking for something
> that doesn't feel like 5h!7, and will put up with the abuse.
>
> I WANT to like the Apple-branded keyboards, but my first impression is that
> I don't like the chicklets on the wireless version, and I think I want a
> full 105 key keyboard.
>
> I've been to Best Buy but I haven't found one that feels good under my
> fingers.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: Keyboards

slylabs13
In reply to this post by Mike Kerner
I should also mention that I have never seen anyone wear the letters off the Apple keyboards. At least not the external ones. I have on other keyboards. Again, don't go cheap and you should be fine with anything.

Bob


On Oct 22, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Mike Kerner wrote:

> Well, the possibility of being able to use RR...ERR LC to develop iOS apps
> caused me to buy a Mac Mini, my first desktop in a while.  For the first
> time in a long time I'm looking for a keyboard.
>
> Since I spend a lot of my day banging on keys, I'm looking for something
> that doesn't feel like 5h!7, and will put up with the abuse.
>
> I WANT to like the Apple-branded keyboards, but my first impression is that
> I don't like the chicklets on the wireless version, and I think I want a
> full 105 key keyboard.
>
> I've been to Best Buy but I haven't found one that feels good under my
> fingers.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: Keyboards

Peter Alcibiades
I have to say, reluctantly, not being an admirer of Apple or its works, that the latest keyboards, if that's the sort of thing you want, basically do not have any competition.  I was using the aluminum usb full one, really came to like it, apart from the irritating keycaps.  It is virtually silent, and my initial worries about the angle and RSI turned out to be groundless.  

Then my partner's keyboard blew up (it was an old Apple one also), so I gave her mine to try, and I could not get it back.  I then bought the compact version for her for another office she works in, which is very nice too, it has full sized keys and takes up minimal desk space.  I then bought a Cherry Strait for myself, which is really terrible by comparison, much noisier, and as I say the keycaps lose their legends after a very short time.  Most disappointing.

The real irritation about the Apple keyboards is the keys.  Where, you ask yourself is the # key?  The layout seems to be neither us nor uk but something horrible in between, so if you are not using an Apple computer you end up writing xmodmap files to get " and @ in the right places, and then they do not correspond to what is on the keys.  Its the usual story, difference and irritation for its own sake, in a nutshell, everything one detests about Apple.  Which is why, despite its being a superior keyboard in itself, I won't be buying another one to replace the Cherry.

But like I say, my partner is delighted with them.  Of course, she cannot see the xmodmap files....

I have bought the Logitech OEMs for people who do a lot of typing. professional writers, who did not want to spend much money, and they seem to work very well for them.  Solid, not too much effort, not too noisy, last for ever.  They are probably the best value of the membrane type.  I think if you are not going to spend the money and get a real specialist keyboard, this is the one to go for.

I have bought the PCKeyboards one, basically an old IBM buckling spring recreation, for one guy who is an ex typesetter and so as nostalgic for that very positive action.  He loves it, but you can hear it in the next room.  Professional typists of a certain age really like these.  They are not too expensive either, but they are not for everyone.

But were I a Mac user (or a lady wanting minimal space on the desktop, a nice keyboard feel, and an elegant look) I would definitely get the corded aluminum one, either the extended or the basic.  I know I will never get mine back.
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Re: Keyboards

slylabs13
I wonder if they sell a UK keyboard. For me, the # is shift-3, where it's always been for US keyboards. The @ is shift-2, again where it's always been. " is shift-' again... well you get the idea.

Bob


On Oct 22, 2010, at 11:23 AM, Peter Alcibiades wrote:

> The real irritation about the Apple keyboards is the keys.  Where, you ask
> yourself is the # key?  The layout seems to be neither us nor uk but
> something horrible in between, so if you are not using an Apple computer you
> end up writing xmodmap files to get " and @ in the right places, and then
> they do not correspond to what is on the keys.  Its the usual story,
> difference and irritation for its own sake, in a nutshell, everything one
> detests about Apple.  Which is why, despite its being a superior keyboard in
> itself, I won't be buying another one to replace the Cherry.

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Re: Keyboards

Paul Looney-2
In reply to this post by Mike Kerner
Mike,
Nice to hear from someone who takes typing seriously.
I've found keyboard preferences are as personal as spouse preferences.
Some people regard noise in a keyboard as a sign of quality; some  
people think silence in a keyboard is a sign of quality. Some like a  
long key travel, some prefer short keystrokes. Some don't care enough  
to notice a difference.
For me, one advantage of buying a Mini over an iMac is that I would  
not be tempted to use another "free" Apple keyboard - which I think  
is numb, lacks sculptured keys, has no auditory response and is (for  
me) more pain than joy to use.
Attached to my Mini is a Unicomp Model M. Do a Goggle search and  
you'll find this is rightly regarded by many keyboard affectionatos  
as the best keyboard ever. I love it. It is an absolute joy to use. I  
look forward to typing on it every day.
But...
I've loaned it to people with mixed results. About half immediately  
bought one for themselves. Others complained that it was too noisy.  
One thought it was too heavy?!? Younger users thought the keystrokes  
were too long (I suspect they had never used anything other than a  
scissor switch keyboard) - if you are accustomed to banging the keys  
to the bottom to assure that they have made contact, it takes awhile  
to realize that you don't need to do that with a good keyboard - with  
the M you get both auditory feedback (the "clickety clack") and  
tactile feedback (as the keyspring buckles) - not only faster, but a  
lot more comfortable.
If you are considering an M:
1. Don't let the price scare you. If you use a keyboard daily the  
lack of pain will pay for the M shortly - I type a lot, I've had two  
bouts of carpal tunnel trauma with prior keyboards - expensive and  
not much fun. The M will out-last several computers - when the time  
comes to upgrade your Mini, keep the M. Keep it for a couple decades  
if you wish.
2. The keys on the M have not been rearranged in almost 30 years.  
Compare with Apple keyboards where F-keys do different things with  
different models; where some Apple keyboards require you to use the  
Fn key with the F-key and other Apple keyboards require you to NOT  
use the Fn key for the same action. For years the Enter key floated  
around different locations at the bottom of Apple's smaller keyboards  
- now it is gone (replaced by Fn Return - how handy is that?) This  
problem goes away with an M (or any other external keyboard); you can  
set it up as you wish - and use it with your next five or ten  
computers - without relearning key layout.
3. Unicomp does not mention this on their website, but you can get  
"Mac" keys (Command and Option) for $10. You must order by phone and  
ask for them.
4. Change the default Windows layout to Mac layout in the Keyboard  
system preferences (swap the Windows key and the Alt key to Option  
and Command). With Snow Leopard you can do this per keyboard - very  
handy if you have the M connected to a laptop and use the M in the  
office and the laptop's keyboard on the road. BTW the name for the M  
in the Keyboard system preference is "Endura" - very  appropriate.
5. For the record: I got the Customizer 104/105, USB, Buckling Spring  
(of course!), US English, Pearl White model. Doing it today, I might  
be tempted to get black with metallic grey (would probably match the  
current Mini better).

If you don't go the M route, consider adding some sound to the  
keyboard you get. I use Keyclick from Sustainable Softworks on my  
laptop. I find it helps me type faster. Obviously it is not needed  
with an M. One advantage it has over the M: you can adjust the volume.

Let us know if you have more keyboard questions.

Paul Looney

On Oct 22, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Mike Kerner wrote:

> Well, the possibility of being able to use RR...ERR LC to develop  
> iOS apps
> caused me to buy a Mac Mini, my first desktop in a while.  For the  
> first
> time in a long time I'm looking for a keyboard.
>
> Since I spend a lot of my day banging on keys, I'm looking for  
> something
> that doesn't feel like 5h!7, and will put up with the abuse.
>
> I WANT to like the Apple-branded keyboards, but my first impression  
> is that
> I don't like the chicklets on the wireless version, and I think I  
> want a
> full 105 key keyboard.
>
> I've been to Best Buy but I haven't found one that feels good under my
> fingers.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>    and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: Keyboards

Colin Holgate-2
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades

On Oct 22, 2010, at 2:23 PM, Peter Alcibiades wrote:

> The real irritation about the Apple keyboards is the keys.  Where, you ask
> yourself is the # key?


Any Apple keyboard I look at seems to have the # as shift 3.



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Re: Keyboards

Mike Kerner
Has anybody tried a Das Keyboard?  I've read about them but I haven't been
able to try one out.

Just as an editorial comment, even the new wired apple kb has the 3/8
chicklet action.  I've tried both kb's in best buy and I just can't get used
to them.

I don't mind scissors per se.  Actually, if I could remove the kb from this
really, really cheap acer aspire that's sitting here, I'd use it forever.
It might be the easiest-to-type-on kb I've had.



On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 15:18, Colin Holgate <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Oct 22, 2010, at 2:23 PM, Peter Alcibiades wrote:
>
> > The real irritation about the Apple keyboards is the keys.  Where, you
> ask
> > yourself is the # key?
>
>
> Any Apple keyboard I look at seems to have the # as shift 3.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>



--
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: Keyboards

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by slylabs13
On 10/22/10 1:00 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> I should also mention that I have never seen anyone wear the letters off the Apple keyboards. At least not the external ones. I have on other keyboards. Again, don't go cheap and you should be fine with anything.

I did. My old one is half bald. The "S" went first, followed eventually
by most of the keys of the left side. I later found out this was a
problem with certain Apple keyboards produced in 2008. One guy went
through 3 of them in 18 months.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Keyboards

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Colin Holgate-2
On 10/22/2010 10:18 PM, Colin Holgate wrote:
> On Oct 22, 2010, at 2:23 PM, Peter Alcibiades wrote:
>
>> The real irritation about the Apple keyboards is the keys.  Where, you ask
>> yourself is the # key?
>
> Any Apple keyboard I look at seems to have the # as shift 3.
>
>

Transatlantic problem!  British Apple Keyboards have the
Sterling sign at shift 3; # is there at Alt 3.
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Re: Keyboards

Colin Holgate-2

On Oct 22, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Richmond wrote:

> Transatlantic problem!  British Apple Keyboards have the
> Sterling sign at shift 3; # is there at Alt 3.

And the US one uses option-3 for £.



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Re: Keyboards

Mike Kerner
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
Well if you can type you shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway...

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 15:37, J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 10/22/10 1:00 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:
>
>> I should also mention that I have never seen anyone wear the letters off
>> the Apple keyboards. At least not the external ones. I have on other
>> keyboards. Again, don't go cheap and you should be fine with anything.
>>
>
> I did. My old one is half bald. The "S" went first, followed eventually by
> most of the keys of the left side. I later found out this was a problem with
> certain Apple keyboards produced in 2008. One guy went through 3 of them in
> 18 months.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
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--
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: Keyboards

Mike Bonner
I had a kensington that I liked but it didn't survive the beating. Had an
apple wireless (2006) that didn't work all that well, but I was the second
owner so not only did it have to survive me, no telling what the previous
owner did to it.  Despite all its issues, i'm back on a G-15, the first
model made.  Keycaps are worn off, it's noisy, big, heavy, the lit up keys
are a bit obnoxious, however it still works, is easy to type on, does have
the longer keystroke that I like, and it's primary selling point is.. It
still works!

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Mike Kerner <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Well if you can type you shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway...
>
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 15:37, J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > On 10/22/10 1:00 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> >
> >> I should also mention that I have never seen anyone wear the letters off
> >> the Apple keyboards. At least not the external ones. I have on other
> >> keyboards. Again, don't go cheap and you should be fine with anything.
> >>
> >
> > I did. My old one is half bald. The "S" went first, followed eventually
> by
> > most of the keys of the left side. I later found out this was a problem
> with
> > certain Apple keyboards produced in 2008. One guy went through 3 of them
> in
> > 18 months.
> >
> > --
> > Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> > HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-revolution mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
> >
>
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>
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Re: Keyboards

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Mike Kerner
On 10/22/2010 11:11 PM, Mike Kerner wrote:
> Well if you can type you shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway...
>

Hey, come over here and try typing on any one of the 3 keyboards I have
on my desk
that feature Latin-Arabic, Latin-Cyrillic and Latin-Phonetic Cyrillic
and try typing using
one of the Anglo-Saxon entry keybaords I wrote for my wife without
looking; then,
and only then, can you make those sorts of comments.

Alternative, download my Devawriter and try typing out thr first 3
verses of Sri Isopanishad
without looking . . .  :)

Love and muffled noises, Richmond.
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RE: Keyboards

Paul D. DeRocco
In reply to this post by Mike Kerner
> From: Mike Kerner
>
> Well if you can type you shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway...

It's fun to swap the N and M key on someone's keyboard, and see how long
before they get confused.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Keyboards

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by Mike Kerner
On 10/22/10 3:11 PM, Mike Kerner wrote:
> Well if you can type you shouldn't be looking at the keys anyway...

Until the little bumps on the "J" and "F" keys wear off, which is
probably next.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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