LC Roadmap

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LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Hi folks,

see subject -> Last Updated on July 14, 2020
I think it is time to update the roadmap, what do you think?


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
https://www.major-k.de/bass
[hidden email]


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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
I've said something to that effect earlier, at which point I was jumped
all over.

So, because I don't want to be jumped all over again, and because
saying the 'roadmap' needs to be updated will have no effect (didn't the
last 3 times),
I'm NOT stating what I think.

Love. kisses, and other things,

Richmond.

On 12.02.21 14:12, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> see subject -> Last Updated on July 14, 2020
> I think it is time to update the roadmap, what do you think?
>
>
> Best
>
> Klaus
> --
> Klaus Major
> https://www.major-k.de
> https://www.major-k.de/bass
> [hidden email]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
I was told last year that HTML5 deployment would see upgrades maybe by
Jan2021 LC 9.7. However LC9.6.2 is still awaiting an RC3. So it’s just not
going to happen. My client and I are severely disappointed to see that the
conference set up for 2022 may be the FIRST LOOK we might see for the HTML5
upgrade. Actually, disappointed doesn’t even close to cut it. I am
seriously LIVID! Absolute proof that subscription model for this is
pointless. It pisses me right off that promise after promise I keep falling
for this crap. I’m paying something like $400 on top of the original $400
per year for this kind of service. I CANNOT afford to keep doing this with
vague empty unfulfilled promises (lies). I KEEP falling for it because the
likes of others on this forum keep trying to convince me that they have our
best interests at heart. But keep forgetting that this is BS too.

Roadmap = careering off a cliff top.  Clean up projected for New York 2022.



On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 at 12:16, Richmond via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've said something to that effect earlier, at which point I was jumped
> all over.
>
> So, because I don't want to be jumped all over again, and because
> saying the 'roadmap' needs to be updated will have no effect (didn't the
> last 3 times),
> I'm NOT stating what I think.
>
> Love. kisses, and other things,
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 12.02.21 14:12, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > see subject -> Last Updated on July 14, 2020
> > I think it is time to update the roadmap, what do you think?
> >
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Klaus
> > --
> > Klaus Major
> > https://www.major-k.de
> > https://www.major-k.de/bass
> > [hidden email]
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
--
Pi Digital
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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode


> On 13 Feb 2021, at 12:37 pm, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I was told last year that HTML5 deployment would see upgrades maybe by
> Jan2021 LC 9.7.

Hi Sean,

I think that kind of aspirational statement, particularly in the world of software development, is the kind of thing to be really pleased and surprised about if it actually happens within 12 months of the estimate. In my book it certainly doesn’t qualify as a lie.  To anticipate features for a commercial product in development would need  a seriously strong and informed insider steer.  No consolation, I appreciate, but if anyone should be in a position to understand the particular challenges of software development, it must be other developers.

Which kind of reminds me about my last mail…. paying for Windows SuperCard and waiting for it to arrive.  I was SO wound up about that.  Weirdly now, it is a fond memory.


Best Wishes,
David Glasgow

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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Hi David

It is (a lie) if this has been going on for years...
If they say specifcally it is to be released Jan 2021 in an effort to
prevent me from cancelling my subscription and then find out it's likely
not going to be around till mid 2022, it's a bit much really!

Sean

On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 at 13:25, David V Glasgow via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> > On 13 Feb 2021, at 12:37 pm, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I was told last year that HTML5 deployment would see upgrades maybe by
> > Jan2021 LC 9.7.
>
> Hi Sean,
>
> I think that kind of aspirational statement, particularly in the world of
> software development, is the kind of thing to be really pleased and
> surprised about if it actually happens within 12 months of the estimate. In
> my book it certainly doesn’t qualify as a lie.  To anticipate features for
> a commercial product in development would need  a seriously strong and
> informed insider steer.  No consolation, I appreciate, but if anyone should
> be in a position to understand the particular challenges of software
> development, it must be other developers.
>
> Which kind of reminds me about my last mail…. paying for Windows SuperCard
> and waiting for it to arrive.  I was SO wound up about that.  Weirdly now,
> it is a fond memory.
>
>
> Best Wishes,
> David Glasgow
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
That's why I quit after one year subscription.

I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations, lot of bugs are not
solved.

Feature requests not implemented although asked by many.

Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of people to
program. But it runs behind future facts.

While other platforms implement dozens of easy things which you can easy
access, you'll have to hope it will be implemented.

And the same is offered for free. Maybe takes some more effort to learn.

HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..
Better learn html yourself and use PHP or LC-server if you like, and it
will take about the same amount of time to create it. And have real fast
loading of your webpage. Visitors are not going to wait so long until
it's loaded. Maybe ok for internal use on Intranet, but as user then i
would be even frustrated of the loading times.

So i now made a webpage in PHP/HTML, a bit javascript and Mysql, it's
for internal use at a company. All info I need I can find online.

And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart as main language,
it's free, it's the future, many devs are going that way.

It supports Android, iOs, web and even building an executable for
Windows is on it's way.

Costs: time.

____________

Next to this, I also do not understand those dozens of emails I get
begging for money to buy them tickets to New York.

What would that help the language forward except some awareness of that
it exists?

Thousands of people loose their jobs these days with this Corona shit,
many companies (read at least 50%) in Netherlands get support money from
the government to stay alive and else they are broke. Due to all the
lockdowns.

And here LC is begging for ticket money, I don't see the logic.

__________________

Op 13-2-2021 om 13:37 schreef Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode:

> I was told last year that HTML5 deployment would see upgrades maybe by
> Jan2021 LC 9.7. However LC9.6.2 is still awaiting an RC3. So it’s just not
> going to happen. My client and I are severely disappointed to see that the
> conference set up for 2022 may be the FIRST LOOK we might see for the HTML5
> upgrade. Actually, disappointed doesn’t even close to cut it. I am
> seriously LIVID! Absolute proof that subscription model for this is
> pointless. It pisses me right off that promise after promise I keep falling
> for this crap. I’m paying something like $400 on top of the original $400
> per year for this kind of service. I CANNOT afford to keep doing this with
> vague empty unfulfilled promises (lies). I KEEP falling for it because the
> likes of others on this forum keep trying to convince me that they have our
> best interests at heart. But keep forgetting that this is BS too.
>
> Roadmap = careering off a cliff top.  Clean up projected for New York 2022.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 at 12:16, Richmond via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I've said something to that effect earlier, at which point I was jumped
>> all over.
>>
>> So, because I don't want to be jumped all over again, and because
>> saying the 'roadmap' needs to be updated will have no effect (didn't the
>> last 3 times),
>> I'm NOT stating what I think.
>>
>> Love. kisses, and other things,
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
>> On 12.02.21 14:12, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> see subject -> Last Updated on July 14, 2020
>>> I think it is time to update the roadmap, what do you think?
>>>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Klaus
>>> --
>>> Klaus Major
>>> https://www.major-k.de
>>> https://www.major-k.de/bass
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>

_______________________________________________
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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode

JeeJeeStudio:

 > I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
 > lot of bugs are not solved.

True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
(I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)

I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
(We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)

Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.

Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??

My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.

 > Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
 > people to program. But it runs behind future facts.

Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:

A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)

If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!

And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.

LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.

I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
(I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.

That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!

Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.

We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.

 > HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..

Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.

 > And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
 > as main language, it's free, it's the future

Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
However, really the future? Maybe not!
End of LC? "Hell no!" :D

(At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)

Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
But also several other factors in play:

2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.

The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.

Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.

Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.

Factor #5 is also big for me. Remember how Google would "fix" search?
They "fixed" it alright! They killed it; try searching a non-trend.

So do I want to leap into Google's IDE?

Trust them to "fix" software development? To decide what I should do?
To reinvent every 5 minutes if the corporate bottom line demands it?
To see the present and the future more clearly than I do myself?
Bow to their proverbial calf and kiss their toes since they're big?

So incredibly tempting...(not really)...no thanks! :)
I gave them a chance to improve the Internet, and they maimed it.
With that much money and men, the only explanation is being clueless!
Thus there's no chance in Hell that I'd ever trust them to be my IDE.

Nor would that in any way replace the special paradigm we enjoy here.

I'm one of the few who are all-in for LC:
100% specialized in this IDE/language. And loving it!!!
(Except the problems we've discussed here; but I've adjusted tactics.)

I believe LC will grow, if they play their cards right.
They were dealt a fabulous hand! I'll help on the paradigm when I can.
The colossal failure to explain LC's strengths has been a roadblock.

LiveCode (owing much to its heritage) is a fantastic product.
It's not Yet Another language/tool that can be swapped out easily.
That may require deeper understanding to realize. We can work on that.
There are problems, but things are actually pretty good right now!
(With GOOD tactics. And some woes due to Apple/industry $$$ strategy.)

Richmond:

 > because I don't want to be jumped all over again [...]
 > I'm NOT stating what I think.
 > Love. kisses, and other things,

I can only speak for me. (I'm independent, not a thought herd groupie.)
But I must say that I enjoy your posts MUCH more than most!

You really have a way of bringing the conversation to life. That helps.
Never a dull moment or dull phrase, and you have some good insights too.

So keep at it - sometimes criticism means you're doing something right!
If people jump on you, they may be hoping for a trampoline effect.
But you know trampolines: fun, but one wrong twist = a bad bruise.
So don't give up. I'm a fan; hope you keep making interesting posts!

Worth repeating:

LiveCode (and HyperCard's heritage) is a fantastic product.
It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
Even those at the top have missed parts of paradigm and unique benefits.
Things are pretty good right now, if you have adapted GOOD tactics!

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

_______________________________________________
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Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>

________________________________
From: use-livecode <[hidden email]> on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Cc: Curry Kenworthy <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: LC Roadmap


JeeJeeStudio:

 > I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
 > lot of bugs are not solved.

True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
(I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)

I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
(We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)

Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.

Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??

My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.

 > Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
 > people to program. But it runs behind future facts.

Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:

A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)

If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!

And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.

LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.

I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
(I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.

That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!

Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.

We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.

 > HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..

Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.

 > And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
 > as main language, it's free, it's the future

Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
However, really the future? Maybe not!
End of LC? "Hell no!" :D

(At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)

Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
But also several other factors in play:

2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.

The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.

Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.

Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.

Factor #5 is also big for me. Remember how Google would "fix" search?
They "fixed" it alright! They killed it; try searching a non-trend.

So do I want to leap into Google's IDE?

Trust them to "fix" software development? To decide what I should do?
To reinvent every 5 minutes if the corporate bottom line demands it?
To see the present and the future more clearly than I do myself?
Bow to their proverbial calf and kiss their toes since they're big?

So incredibly tempting...(not really)...no thanks! :)
I gave them a chance to improve the Internet, and they maimed it.
With that much money and men, the only explanation is being clueless!
Thus there's no chance in Hell that I'd ever trust them to be my IDE.

Nor would that in any way replace the special paradigm we enjoy here.

I'm one of the few who are all-in for LC:
100% specialized in this IDE/language. And loving it!!!
(Except the problems we've discussed here; but I've adjusted tactics.)

I believe LC will grow, if they play their cards right.
They were dealt a fabulous hand! I'll help on the paradigm when I can.
The colossal failure to explain LC's strengths has been a roadblock.

LiveCode (owing much to its heritage) is a fantastic product.
It's not Yet Another language/tool that can be swapped out easily.
That may require deeper understanding to realize. We can work on that.
There are problems, but things are actually pretty good right now!
(With GOOD tactics. And some woes due to Apple/industry $$$ strategy.)

Richmond:

 > because I don't want to be jumped all over again [...]
 > I'm NOT stating what I think.
 > Love. kisses, and other things,

I can only speak for me. (I'm independent, not a thought herd groupie.)
But I must say that I enjoy your posts MUCH more than most!

You really have a way of bringing the conversation to life. That helps.
Never a dull moment or dull phrase, and you have some good insights too.

So keep at it - sometimes criticism means you're doing something right!
If people jump on you, they may be hoping for a trampoline effect.
But you know trampolines: fun, but one wrong twist = a bad bruise.
So don't give up. I'm a fan; hope you keep making interesting posts!

Worth repeating:

LiveCode (and HyperCard's heritage) is a fantastic product.
It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
Even those at the top have missed parts of paradigm and unique benefits.
Things are pretty good right now, if you have adapted GOOD tactics!

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

_______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list
[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
I don't want any headaches, but as I develop on Macintosh and Linux B4X
is no good.

On 14.02.21 17:29, e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode wrote:

> https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.
>
> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
> ________________________________
> From: use-livecode <[hidden email]> on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
> To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Curry Kenworthy <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: LC Roadmap
>
>
> JeeJeeStudio:
>
>   > I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
>   > lot of bugs are not solved.
>
> True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
> We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
> (I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)
>
> I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
> Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
> Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
> (We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)
>
> Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
> Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.
>
> Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
> Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
> Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??
>
> My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
> Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
> Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.
>
>   > Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
>   > people to program. But it runs behind future facts.
>
> Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:
>
> A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
> B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)
>
> If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!
>
> And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
> Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
> LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
> And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.
>
> LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
> People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
> ("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
> Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.
>
> I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
> (I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
> The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.
>
> That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
> It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
> This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!
>
> Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
> You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
> Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
> That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.
>
> We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
> I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.
>
>   > HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..
>
> Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.
>
>   > And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
>   > as main language, it's free, it's the future
>
> Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
> However, really the future? Maybe not!
> End of LC? "Hell no!" :D
>
> (At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)
>
> Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
> But also several other factors in play:
>
> 2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
> 3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
> 4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
> 5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.
>
> The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
> should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
> Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.
>
> Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
> What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
> Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.
>
> Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
> Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
> Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.
>
> Factor #5 is also big for me. Remember how Google would "fix" search?
> They "fixed" it alright! They killed it; try searching a non-trend.
>
> So do I want to leap into Google's IDE?
>
> Trust them to "fix" software development? To decide what I should do?
> To reinvent every 5 minutes if the corporate bottom line demands it?
> To see the present and the future more clearly than I do myself?
> Bow to their proverbial calf and kiss their toes since they're big?
>
> So incredibly tempting...(not really)...no thanks! :)
> I gave them a chance to improve the Internet, and they maimed it.
> With that much money and men, the only explanation is being clueless!
> Thus there's no chance in Hell that I'd ever trust them to be my IDE.
>
> Nor would that in any way replace the special paradigm we enjoy here.
>
> I'm one of the few who are all-in for LC:
> 100% specialized in this IDE/language. And loving it!!!
> (Except the problems we've discussed here; but I've adjusted tactics.)
>
> I believe LC will grow, if they play their cards right.
> They were dealt a fabulous hand! I'll help on the paradigm when I can.
> The colossal failure to explain LC's strengths has been a roadblock.
>
> LiveCode (owing much to its heritage) is a fantastic product.
> It's not Yet Another language/tool that can be swapped out easily.
> That may require deeper understanding to realize. We can work on that.
> There are problems, but things are actually pretty good right now!
> (With GOOD tactics. And some woes due to Apple/industry $$$ strategy.)
>
> Richmond:
>
>   > because I don't want to be jumped all over again [...]
>   > I'm NOT stating what I think.
>   > Love. kisses, and other things,
>
> I can only speak for me. (I'm independent, not a thought herd groupie.)
> But I must say that I enjoy your posts MUCH more than most!
>
> You really have a way of bringing the conversation to life. That helps.
> Never a dull moment or dull phrase, and you have some good insights too.
>
> So keep at it - sometimes criticism means you're doing something right!
> If people jump on you, they may be hoping for a trampoline effect.
> But you know trampolines: fun, but one wrong twist = a bad bruise.
> So don't give up. I'm a fan; hope you keep making interesting posts!
>
> Worth repeating:
>
> LiveCode (and HyperCard's heritage) is a fantastic product.
> It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
> Even those at the top have missed parts of paradigm and unique benefits.
> Things are pretty good right now, if you have adapted GOOD tactics!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Curry Kenworthy
>
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
 Curry,
Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times, when I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed in FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my coding to LiveCode.

I still miss Director. It’s animation capabilities and web deployment with a plug-in were excellent. Of course, plug-ins are obsolete and mobile support has become mandatory. The big selling point that is front and center is: English like language. I find that a very weak claim, unless all I want to do is write “Hello World” when I click a button. To do anything non-trivial, you need to delve into coder world. Yes, it is enormously helpful at building user interfaces. Deployment is an enormous pain, with ever changing security challenges. The help files are great at the most trivial tasks, but to do beyond can be challenging. That said, I am committed to Livecode and congratulate the dev team for their accomplishments.

I would like to see:
Better help files that go deeper. Have you seen MacMost.com? This is a guy who produces quicky videos for free, and offers more detailed courses for a modest subscription fee. I don’t know whether there are enough potential clients for this, but what if a small team of live coders created something like this that would create modest size youtube videos that both bring in new users and take them to the next level with video, sample projects, and text materials? Perhaps the mothership could support and advise while user Fees pass to the authors. Just thinking.

That’s all for now. Valentine’s Day and breakfast beckon.

Best,
Bill Prothero





William Prothero
https://earthlearningsolutions.org

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:30 AM, e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.
>
> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
> ________________________________
> From: use-livecode <[hidden email]> on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
> To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Curry Kenworthy <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: LC Roadmap
>
>
> JeeJeeStudio:
>
>> I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
>> lot of bugs are not solved.
>
> True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
> We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
> (I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)
>
> I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
> Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
> Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
> (We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)
>
> Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
> Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.
>
> Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
> Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
> Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??
>
> My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
> Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
> Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.
>
>> Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
>> people to program. But it runs behind future facts.
>
> Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:
>
> A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
> B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)
>
> If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!
>
> And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
> Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
> LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
> And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.
>
> LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
> People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
> ("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
> Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.
>
> I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
> (I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
> The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.
>
> That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
> It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
> This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!
>
> Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
> You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
> Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
> That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.
>
> We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
> I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.
>
>> HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..
>
> Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.
>
>> And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
>> as main language, it's free, it's the future
>
> Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
> However, really the future? Maybe not!
> End of LC? "Hell no!" :D
>
> (At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)
>
> Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
> But also several other factors in play:
>
> 2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
> 3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
> 4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
> 5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.
>
> The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
> should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
> Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.
>
> Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
> What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
> Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.
>
> Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
> Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
> Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.
>
> Factor #5 is also big for me. Remember how Google would "fix" search?
> They "fixed" it alright! They killed it; try searching a non-trend.
>
> So do I want to leap into Google's IDE?
>
> Trust them to "fix" software development? To decide what I should do?
> To reinvent every 5 minutes if the corporate bottom line demands it?
> To see the present and the future more clearly than I do myself?
> Bow to their proverbial calf and kiss their toes since they're big?
>
> So incredibly tempting...(not really)...no thanks! :)
> I gave them a chance to improve the Internet, and they maimed it.
> With that much money and men, the only explanation is being clueless!
> Thus there's no chance in Hell that I'd ever trust them to be my IDE.
>
> Nor would that in any way replace the special paradigm we enjoy here.
>
> I'm one of the few who are all-in for LC:
> 100% specialized in this IDE/language. And loving it!!!
> (Except the problems we've discussed here; but I've adjusted tactics.)
>
> I believe LC will grow, if they play their cards right.
> They were dealt a fabulous hand! I'll help on the paradigm when I can.
> The colossal failure to explain LC's strengths has been a roadblock.
>
> LiveCode (owing much to its heritage) is a fantastic product.
> It's not Yet Another language/tool that can be swapped out easily.
> That may require deeper understanding to realize. We can work on that.
> There are problems, but things are actually pretty good right now!
> (With GOOD tactics. And some woes due to Apple/industry $$$ strategy.)
>
> Richmond:
>
>> because I don't want to be jumped all over again [...]
>> I'm NOT stating what I think.
>> Love. kisses, and other things,
>
> I can only speak for me. (I'm independent, not a thought herd groupie.)
> But I must say that I enjoy your posts MUCH more than most!
>
> You really have a way of bringing the conversation to life. That helps.
> Never a dull moment or dull phrase, and you have some good insights too.
>
> So keep at it - sometimes criticism means you're doing something right!
> If people jump on you, they may be hoping for a trampoline effect.
> But you know trampolines: fun, but one wrong twist = a bad bruise.
> So don't give up. I'm a fan; hope you keep making interesting posts!
>
> Worth repeating:
>
> LiveCode (and HyperCard's heritage) is a fantastic product.
> It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
> Even those at the top have missed parts of paradigm and unique benefits.
> Things are pretty good right now, if you have adapted GOOD tactics!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Curry Kenworthy
>
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
There is a whole lot more at http://lessons.livecode.com. While these
aren't videos, the amount of info there is impressive and lessons are added
all the time.

Personally I find written instructions much easier to follow and they don't
require me to spend extra time watching a video and needing to
run/pause/run/search for the section I want to review.

The lessons site should be prominently displayed in the Help menu.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [hidden email]
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On February 14, 2021 11:27:24 AM ELS Prothero via use-livecode
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Curry,
> Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times,
> when I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by
> enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it
> failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed
> in FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my
> coding to LiveCode.
>
> I still miss Director. It’s animation capabilities and web deployment with
> a plug-in were excellent. Of course, plug-ins are obsolete and mobile
> support has become mandatory. The big selling point that is front and
> center is: English like language. I find that a very weak claim, unless all
> I want to do is write “Hello World” when I click a button. To do anything
> non-trivial, you need to delve into coder world. Yes, it is enormously
> helpful at building user interfaces. Deployment is an enormous pain, with
> ever changing security challenges. The help files are great at the most
> trivial tasks, but to do beyond can be challenging. That said, I am
> committed to Livecode and congratulate the dev team for their accomplishments.
>
> I would like to see:
> Better help files that go deeper. Have you seen MacMost.com? This is a guy
> who produces quicky videos for free, and offers more detailed courses for a
> modest subscription fee. I don’t know whether there are enough potential
> clients for this, but what if a small team of live coders created something
> like this that would create modest size youtube videos that both bring in
> new users and take them to the next level with video, sample projects, and
> text materials? Perhaps the mothership could support and advise while user
> Fees pass to the authors. Just thinking.



_______________________________________________
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Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Folks, a bit more:
Both documentation and marketing are huge tasks and keeping even basic documentation current is a big job. A few years ago, I tried the lessons that were produced by the livecode team to help folks create basic Apple apps. In my view, they were a failure. First, they seemed either buggy or lacked attention to non-specialist assumptions in the presentation, confusing me. They needed to be reviewed and vetted by beginning programmers. Secondly, they quickly became obsolete. Lots of effort for a mediocre showing.

This is a task where livecoders could contribute with carefully vetted modules, like those in macmost.com <http://macmost.com/>. There would need to be a presentation framework that contributors fit into. Contributions would need to be reviewed (and authored), perhaps by livecoders who have already purchased livecode subscriptions. Coding practices would have to be reviewed and be clean. Purchase fees would be collected by the mothership and distributed to authors. This would benefit the mothership by bringing in new users who would subscribe to the software. There should be user feedback and requests for specific lessons, which a member of the contribution team (all subscribers?) could take on. Lessons would get reviewed by purchasers and authors would also get ratings.

This project would be best if tightly coupled to the dev team and its control. The justification for giving fees to authors is that it would be enormously to the benefit of the mothership to have this resource, both by supporting existing users and gaining new ones.

Happy Valentine’s day,
Every day is “Valentine’s Day” (if your name is Valentine),

Best,
Bill Prothero


> On Feb 14, 2021, at 9:25 AM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Curry,
> Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times, when I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed in FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my coding to LiveCode.
>
> I still miss Director. It’s animation capabilities and web deployment with a plug-in were excellent. Of course, plug-ins are obsolete and mobile support has become mandatory. The big selling point that is front and center is: English like language. I find that a very weak claim, unless all I want to do is write “Hello World” when I click a button. To do anything non-trivial, you need to delve into coder world. Yes, it is enormously helpful at building user interfaces. Deployment is an enormous pain, with ever changing security challenges. The help files are great at the most trivial tasks, but to do beyond can be challenging. That said, I am committed to Livecode and congratulate the dev team for their accomplishments.
>
> I would like to see:
> Better help files that go deeper. Have you seen MacMost.com? This is a guy who produces quicky videos for free, and offers more detailed courses for a modest subscription fee. I don’t know whether there are enough potential clients for this, but what if a small team of live coders created something like this that would create modest size youtube videos that both bring in new users and take them to the next level with video, sample projects, and text materials? Perhaps the mothership could support and advise while user Fees pass to the authors. Just thinking.
>
> That’s all for now. Valentine’s Day and breakfast beckon.
>
> Best,
> Bill Prothero
>
>
>
>
>
> William Prothero
> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
>
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:30 AM, e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.
>>
>> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: use-livecode <[hidden email]> on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
>> To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: Curry Kenworthy <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: LC Roadmap
>>
>>
>> JeeJeeStudio:
>>
>>> I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
>>> lot of bugs are not solved.
>>
>> True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
>> We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
>> (I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)
>>
>> I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
>> Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
>> Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
>> (We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)
>>
>> Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
>> Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.
>>
>> Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
>> Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
>> Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??
>>
>> My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
>> Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
>> Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.
>>
>>> Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
>>> people to program. But it runs behind future facts.
>>
>> Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:
>>
>> A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
>> B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)
>>
>> If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!
>>
>> And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
>> Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
>> LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
>> And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.
>>
>> LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
>> People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
>> ("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
>> Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.
>>
>> I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
>> (I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
>> The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
>> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.
>>
>> That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
>> It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
>> This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
>> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!
>>
>> Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
>> You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
>> Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
>> That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.
>>
>> We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
>> I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.
>>
>>> HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..
>>
>> Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.
>>
>>> And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
>>> as main language, it's free, it's the future
>>
>> Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
>> However, really the future? Maybe not!
>> End of LC? "Hell no!" :D
>>
>> (At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)
>>
>> Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
>> But also several other factors in play:
>>
>> 2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
>> 3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
>> 4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
>> 5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.
>>
>> The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
>> should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
>> Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.
>>
>> Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
>> What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
>> Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.
>>
>> Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
>> Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
>> Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.
>>
>> Factor #5 is also big for me. Remember how Google would "fix" search?
>> They "fixed" it alright! They killed it; try searching a non-trend.
>>
>> So do I want to leap into Google's IDE?
>>
>> Trust them to "fix" software development? To decide what I should do?
>> To reinvent every 5 minutes if the corporate bottom line demands it?
>> To see the present and the future more clearly than I do myself?
>> Bow to their proverbial calf and kiss their toes since they're big?
>>
>> So incredibly tempting...(not really)...no thanks! :)
>> I gave them a chance to improve the Internet, and they maimed it.
>> With that much money and men, the only explanation is being clueless!
>> Thus there's no chance in Hell that I'd ever trust them to be my IDE.
>>
>> Nor would that in any way replace the special paradigm we enjoy here.
>>
>> I'm one of the few who are all-in for LC:
>> 100% specialized in this IDE/language. And loving it!!!
>> (Except the problems we've discussed here; but I've adjusted tactics.)
>>
>> I believe LC will grow, if they play their cards right.
>> They were dealt a fabulous hand! I'll help on the paradigm when I can.
>> The colossal failure to explain LC's strengths has been a roadblock.
>>
>> LiveCode (owing much to its heritage) is a fantastic product.
>> It's not Yet Another language/tool that can be swapped out easily.
>> That may require deeper understanding to realize. We can work on that.
>> There are problems, but things are actually pretty good right now!
>> (With GOOD tactics. And some woes due to Apple/industry $$$ strategy.)
>>
>> Richmond:
>>
>>> because I don't want to be jumped all over again [...]
>>> I'm NOT stating what I think.
>>> Love. kisses, and other things,
>>
>> I can only speak for me. (I'm independent, not a thought herd groupie.)
>> But I must say that I enjoy your posts MUCH more than most!
>>
>> You really have a way of bringing the conversation to life. That helps.
>> Never a dull moment or dull phrase, and you have some good insights too.
>>
>> So keep at it - sometimes criticism means you're doing something right!
>> If people jump on you, they may be hoping for a trampoline effect.
>> But you know trampolines: fun, but one wrong twist = a bad bruise.
>> So don't give up. I'm a fan; hope you keep making interesting posts!
>>
>> Worth repeating:
>>
>> LiveCode (and HyperCard's heritage) is a fantastic product.
>> It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
>> Even those at the top have missed parts of paradigm and unique benefits.
>> Things are pretty good right now, if you have adapted GOOD tactics!
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Curry Kenworthy
>>
>> Custom Software Development
>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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William A. Prothero, Ph.D.
University of California, Santa Barbara Dept. of Earth Sciences (Emeritus)
Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
http://earthlearningsolutions.org/

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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Every Livecoder who is interested in creating lessons or fixing outdated ones  can ask Livecode Support to get access to the Lessons section.
Livecode will then create an account and will provide the tools for creating the lessons.
At least this was the fact when i asked if i could help.

Regards,

Matthias


> Am 14.02.2021 um 19:57 schrieb prothero--- via use-livecode <[hidden email]>:
>
> Folks, a bit more:
> Both documentation and marketing are huge tasks and keeping even basic documentation current is a big job. A few years ago, I tried the lessons that were produced by the livecode team to help folks create basic Apple apps. In my view, they were a failure. First, they seemed either buggy or lacked attention to non-specialist assumptions in the presentation, confusing me. They needed to be reviewed and vetted by beginning programmers. Secondly, they quickly became obsolete. Lots of effort for a mediocre showing.
>
> This is a task where livecoders could contribute with carefully vetted modules, like those in macmost.com <http://macmost.com/>. There would need to be a presentation framework that contributors fit into. Contributions would need to be reviewed (and authored), perhaps by livecoders who have already purchased livecode subscriptions. Coding practices would have to be reviewed and be clean. Purchase fees would be collected by the mothership and distributed to authors. This would benefit the mothership by bringing in new users who would subscribe to the software. There should be user feedback and requests for specific lessons, which a member of the contribution team (all subscribers?) could take on. Lessons would get reviewed by purchasers and authors would also get ratings.
>
> This project would be best if tightly coupled to the dev team and its control. The justification for giving fees to authors is that it would be enormously to the benefit of the mothership to have this resource, both by supporting existing users and gaining new ones.
>
> Happy Valentine’s day,
> Every day is “Valentine’s Day” (if your name is Valentine),
>
> Best,
> Bill Prothero
>
>
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 9:25 AM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Curry,
>> Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times, when I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed in FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my coding to LiveCode.
>>
>> I still miss Director. It’s animation capabilities and web deployment with a plug-in were excellent. Of course, plug-ins are obsolete and mobile support has become mandatory. The big selling point that is front and center is: English like language. I find that a very weak claim, unless all I want to do is write “Hello World” when I click a button. To do anything non-trivial, you need to delve into coder world. Yes, it is enormously helpful at building user interfaces. Deployment is an enormous pain, with ever changing security challenges. The help files are great at the most trivial tasks, but to do beyond can be challenging. That said, I am committed to Livecode and congratulate the dev team for their accomplishments.
>>
>> I would like to see:
>> Better help files that go deeper. Have you seen MacMost.com? This is a guy who produces quicky videos for free, and offers more detailed courses for a modest subscription fee. I don’t know whether there are enough potential clients for this, but what if a small team of live coders created something like this that would create modest size youtube videos that both bring in new users and take them to the next level with video, sample projects, and text materials? Perhaps the mothership could support and advise while user Fees pass to the authors. Just thinking.
>>
>> That’s all for now. Valentine’s Day and breakfast beckon.
>>
>> Best,
>> Bill Prothero
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> William Prothero
>> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
>>
>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:30 AM, e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: use-livecode <[hidden email]> on behalf of Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
>>> To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
>>> Cc: Curry Kenworthy <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: LC Roadmap
>>>
>>>
>>> JeeJeeStudio:
>>>
>>>> I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
>>>> lot of bugs are not solved.
>>>
>>> True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
>>> We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
>>> (I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)
>>>
>>> I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
>>> Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
>>> Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
>>> (We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)
>>>
>>> Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
>>> Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.
>>>
>>> Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
>>> Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
>>> Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??
>>>
>>> My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
>>> Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
>>> Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.
>>>
>>>> Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
>>>> people to program. But it runs behind future facts.
>>>
>>> Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:
>>>
>>> A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
>>> B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)
>>>
>>> If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!
>>>
>>> And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
>>> Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
>>> LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
>>> And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.
>>>
>>> LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
>>> People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
>>> ("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
>>> Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.
>>>
>>> I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
>>> (I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
>>> The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
>>> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.
>>>
>>> That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
>>> It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
>>> This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
>>> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!
>>>
>>> Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
>>> You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
>>> Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
>>> That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.
>>>
>>> We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
>>> I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.
>>>
>>>> HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..
>>>
>>> Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.
>>>
>>>> And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
>>>> as main language, it's free, it's the future
>>>
>>> Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
>>> However, really the future? Maybe not!
>>> End of LC? "Hell no!" :D
>>>
>>> (At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)
>>>
>>> Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
>>> But also several other factors in play:
>>>
>>> 2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
>>> 3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
>>> 4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
>>> 5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.
>>>
>>> The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
>>> should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
>>> Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.
>>>
>>> Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
>>> What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
>>> Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
>>> Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
>>> Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.
>>>
>>> Factor #5 is also big for me. Remember how Google would "fix" search?
>>> They "fixed" it alright! They killed it; try searching a non-trend.
>>>
>>> So do I want to leap into Google's IDE?
>>>
>>> Trust them to "fix" software development? To decide what I should do?
>>> To reinvent every 5 minutes if the corporate bottom line demands it?
>>> To see the present and the future more clearly than I do myself?
>>> Bow to their proverbial calf and kiss their toes since they're big?
>>>
>>> So incredibly tempting...(not really)...no thanks! :)
>>> I gave them a chance to improve the Internet, and they maimed it.
>>> With that much money and men, the only explanation is being clueless!
>>> Thus there's no chance in Hell that I'd ever trust them to be my IDE.
>>>
>>> Nor would that in any way replace the special paradigm we enjoy here.
>>>
>>> I'm one of the few who are all-in for LC:
>>> 100% specialized in this IDE/language. And loving it!!!
>>> (Except the problems we've discussed here; but I've adjusted tactics.)
>>>
>>> I believe LC will grow, if they play their cards right.
>>> They were dealt a fabulous hand! I'll help on the paradigm when I can.
>>> The colossal failure to explain LC's strengths has been a roadblock.
>>>
>>> LiveCode (owing much to its heritage) is a fantastic product.
>>> It's not Yet Another language/tool that can be swapped out easily.
>>> That may require deeper understanding to realize. We can work on that.
>>> There are problems, but things are actually pretty good right now!
>>> (With GOOD tactics. And some woes due to Apple/industry $$$ strategy.)
>>>
>>> Richmond:
>>>
>>>> because I don't want to be jumped all over again [...]
>>>> I'm NOT stating what I think.
>>>> Love. kisses, and other things,
>>>
>>> I can only speak for me. (I'm independent, not a thought herd groupie.)
>>> But I must say that I enjoy your posts MUCH more than most!
>>>
>>> You really have a way of bringing the conversation to life. That helps.
>>> Never a dull moment or dull phrase, and you have some good insights too.
>>>
>>> So keep at it - sometimes criticism means you're doing something right!
>>> If people jump on you, they may be hoping for a trampoline effect.
>>> But you know trampolines: fun, but one wrong twist = a bad bruise.
>>> So don't give up. I'm a fan; hope you keep making interesting posts!
>>>
>>> Worth repeating:
>>>
>>> LiveCode (and HyperCard's heritage) is a fantastic product.
>>> It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
>>> Even those at the top have missed parts of paradigm and unique benefits.
>>> Things are pretty good right now, if you have adapted GOOD tactics!
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Curry Kenworthy
>>>
>>> Custom Software Development
>>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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>
> William A. Prothero, Ph.D.
> University of California, Santa Barbara Dept. of Earth Sciences (Emeritus)
> Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
> http://earthlearningsolutions.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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-
Matthias Rebbe
Life Is Too Short For Boring Code


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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
I am currently working as a teacher in an upper secondary school in Norway. I teach Computer Science and languages like English and Norwegian. Besides working as a teacher for more than 20 years, I have also experience from running various businesses. The combination of the two very different, but also in some parts, very common experiences, forms the basis of my thoughts on this topic.

From being in charge of running a business with about 20 employees and more than 100 recurring customers, I have learnt the importance of due diligence in all aspects of running the business. Whenever I was about to make a promise to a customer, I alone was responsible for making sure I could keep this promise. If the job at hand required new tools, I would never commit to the task before I actually had said tool at my disposal. Sure enough, I could find vendors who would promise to deliver on time, but to me such promises are nothing more than a good intention.

I look at the LC Roadmap in very much the same way. As a teacher I think I understand why the LC Roadmap is not a reliable tool to use for planning future solutions. As a teacher I am supposed to make plans in advance. I should make a plan for the whole of the school year, and a plan for each semester, the latter more detailed than the first. They are very much like the roadmap or the promises from vendors.

In reality these plans are not worth the bytes they occupy on the server. To be honest, even the plans I just made for next week and for each lesson next week, will fail one way or another. Such is the nature of plans vs. reality. And it is not about me or anyone else not caring about fulfilling the promises of the plans. It is simply because I am not able to control every variable that will affect the work we do.

As developers it should not be difficult for us to understand that a roadmap is just an expression of what LC Ltd  hopes to achieve within a given timeframe. It should not be considered to be a solid basis for making future promises to our customers. If we choose to do so, it would be just as stupid as if I chose to press on with my plans for this week, without any consideration to what happened in the classroom last week. And the responsibility would be with us, not the plans or the roadmaps.

On the question on whether or not the LC Roadmap should be updated, the answer is of course, yes. All plans that are outdated should be updated. But the new plans should be treated with the same amount of caution as the previous ones. Especially so if our livelihood depends on how we treat these roadmaps.

Best regards
Tore Nilsen

> 13. feb. 2021 kl. 13:37 skrev Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <[hidden email]>:
>
> I was told last year that HTML5 deployment would see upgrades maybe by
> Jan2021 LC 9.7. However LC9.6.2 is still awaiting an RC3. So it’s just not
> going to happen. My client and I are severely disappointed to see that the
> conference set up for 2022 may be the FIRST LOOK we might see for the HTML5
> upgrade. Actually, disappointed doesn’t even close to cut it. I am
> seriously LIVID! Absolute proof that subscription model for this is
> pointless. It pisses me right off that promise after promise I keep falling
> for this crap. I’m paying something like $400 on top of the original $400
> per year for this kind of service. I CANNOT afford to keep doing this with
> vague empty unfulfilled promises (lies). I KEEP falling for it because the
> likes of others on this forum keep trying to convince me that they have our
> best interests at heart. But keep forgetting that this is BS too.
>
> Roadmap = careering off a cliff top.  Clean up projected for New York 2022.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 at 12:16, Richmond via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I've said something to that effect earlier, at which point I was jumped
>> all over.
>>
>> So, because I don't want to be jumped all over again, and because
>> saying the 'roadmap' needs to be updated will have no effect (didn't the
>> last 3 times),
>> I'm NOT stating what I think.
>>
>> Love. kisses, and other things,
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
>> On 12.02.21 14:12, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> see subject -> Last Updated on July 14, 2020
>>> I think it is time to update the roadmap, what do you think?
>>>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Klaus
>>> --
>>> Klaus Major
>>> https://www.major-k.de
>>> https://www.major-k.de/bass
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
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> --
> Pi Digital
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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Bill Prothero wrote:

 > I would like to see:
 > Better help files that go deeper.

If I gave you a thousand pages of deep material but they were unrelated
to your work, would you read them?

If I gave you ten pages that completely nailed the subject you've been
grappling with, would you kick in a couple bucks to have them written?

Andre has been writing books on LC, and I talked with him a couple weeks
ago about possible collaborative efforts, and there are other content
options beyond LC's Lessons and eBooks...

But the most important question is:

What do you want to learn?

Let's identify topic areas, and then it will become much simpler to sort
out how they get addressed.

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems

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Polygon fill algo?

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
I was hoping to use a single polygon draw a box, using the old trick of
making discontiguous regions by adding a blank line between lists of points.

The results draws the lines as I expected, but the fill is
unpredictable, at least for me.  Apparently the fill rules for a polygon
cause it to not fill some regions, even when discontiguous.

I guess I'll have to use separate objects, but I was wondering if anyone
has a description of the polyfill rule(s), or better, a way to coerce
discontiguous polygon regions to always be filled.

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems

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Re: Polygon fill algo?

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Hi Richard

Have you checked out the `fillRule` property docs?

Cheers

Monte

> On 15 Feb 2021, at 9:25 am, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I was hoping to use a single polygon draw a box, using the old trick of making discontiguous regions by adding a blank line between lists of points.
>
> The results draws the lines as I expected, but the fill is unpredictable, at least for me.  Apparently the fill rules for a polygon cause it to not fill some regions, even when discontiguous.
>
> I guess I'll have to use separate objects, but I was wondering if anyone has a description of the polyfill rule(s), or better, a way to coerce discontiguous polygon regions to always be filled.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Well, permit me to chime in here with full knowledge that I may be out of date with what’s already available.

Arguably the most important feature of LC is its muliplatformness. Recognizing that it is a moving target, We/I need and want up to date easy to use lessons on how to build standalones for all the platforms. Since it is moving target these lessons should have revision cycles with clear up front indication of what OS and LC versions are being  used in each lesson. One of the problems I encounter is the bewildering platform jargon in existing lessons. I wish more simple language could be used to perhaps explain the jargon.

I am an Apple user (not a bigot) and it annoys the hell of me that I can no longer build distributable standalones for the Mac. It’s not reasonable to expect to change Apple, so we need to make it easier for us LC users. I briefly looked at the current lesson for this some time ago and at first glance it seemed unnecessarily complicated. I admit I might be me at fault here but here we are…

Just trying to help,

Roger

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What do you want to learn?
>
> Let's identify topic areas, and then it will become much simpler to sort out how they get addressed.
>

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Re: LC Roadmap

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
I just noticed that the "Codesigning and Notarizing your LC Standalone etc” lesson was updated on Feb 9, 2021. Perhaps I misrepresented the real situation in my previous post.

Roger


> On Feb 14, 2021, at 2:35 PM, Roger Guay via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, permit me to chime in here with full knowledge that I may be out of date with what’s already available.
>
> Arguably the most important feature of LC is its muliplatformness. Recognizing that it is a moving target, We/I need and want up to date easy to use lessons on how to build standalones for all the platforms. Since it is moving target these lessons should have revision cycles with clear up front indication of what OS and LC versions are being  used in each lesson. One of the problems I encounter is the bewildering platform jargon in existing lessons. I wish more simple language could be used to perhaps explain the jargon.
>
> I am an Apple user (not a bigot) and it annoys the hell of me that I can no longer build distributable standalones for the Mac. It’s not reasonable to expect to change Apple, so we need to make it easier for us LC users. I briefly looked at the current lesson for this some time ago and at first glance it seemed unnecessarily complicated. I admit I might be me at fault here but here we are…
>
> Just trying to help,
>
> Roger
>
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> What do you want to learn?
>>
>> Let's identify topic areas, and then it will become much simpler to sort out how they get addressed.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: Polygon fill algo?

Mark Wieder via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Mark Wieder via use-livecode
Thanks, Monte. I checked it out, but unfortunately none of the options
handle my specific use case in the way I want (which is arguably an
unrealistic expectation, given that I need to have the fill region paint
over some vertices).


I also discovered what may be a bug, or at least a curiosity: after
playing with the nonzero and evenodd options, I tried to restore the
default with:

   set the fillrule of the selobj to none

And got:

    Message execution error:
    Error description: Property: invalid enumeration value
    Hint:

Apparently "none" must be quoted.  Has it always been that way?  I've
seen a couple other cases in recent years where keywords I could have
sworn I'd used unquoted now throw errors until I quote them.

What rule can help us know when keywords must be quoted?


It also occurs to me: if there's no hint, adding "Hint:" looks like a
bug, even though it may not be (doesn't seem to be in this case). Maybe
I'll see if I can get some time to patch that...

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems


Monte Goulding wrote:
 >
 > Hi Richard
 >
 > Have you checked out the `fillRule` property docs?
 >
 > Cheers
 >
 > Monte
 >
 >> On 15 Feb 2021, at 9:25 am, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
<use-livecode at lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 >>
 >> I was hoping to use a single polygon draw a box, using the old trick
of making discontiguous regions by adding a blank line between lists of
points.
 >>
 >> The results draws the lines as I expected, but the fill is
unpredictable, at least for me.  Apparently the fill rules for a polygon
cause it to not fill some regions, even when discontiguous.
 >>
 >> I guess I'll have to use separate objects, but I was wondering if
anyone has a description of the polyfill rule(s), or better, a way to
coerce discontiguous polygon regions to always be filled.
 >>
 >> --
 >> Richard Gaskin
 >> Fourth World Systems


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