Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

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Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Hi all

I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea. However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.

So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off - assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those on this list who do actually teach this stuff?

The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to actually do the development work.

Hoping for some insights

Graham
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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Hi.
I have taught several newbies. I always start with a simple app, like an address book. I show how controls are created, and how scripts are built. During that process, I am off in the weeds, writing short handlers showing how the cursor can trigger things like mouseEnter or mouseMove, these messages having nothing to do with the task at hand, but  rather similar to what we are working on.
This is all way before the message hierarchy or anything intermediate like that. The point is to get them hooked, and that can only happen if the basic simple things appear accessible and comfortable. If you are good at this, it will also appear to be fun.
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Samuel via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email]>
Cc: Graham Samuel <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2019 8:53 am
Subject: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Hi all

I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea. However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.

So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off - assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those on this list who do actually teach this stuff?

The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to actually do the development work.

Hoping for some insights

Graham
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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
I was disappointed that I only got one reply to my query about LC as a platform for learning programming - I thought this was a big thing with quite a few people on this list, some of whom are actually educators. Since I’ve failed in this, can someone suggest a better way of getting an answer (e.g. forums, mother ship)?

TIA

Graham

I wrote:

> I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea. However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.
>
> So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off - assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those on this list who do actually teach this stuff?
>
> The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to actually do the development work.
>
> Hoping for some insights
>
> Graham

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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
I'm not really qualified to answer that, so I was mum, but if I had to answer and couldn't be held to account... ;-)

I would say that any young person who wants to become a programmer or app designer (not sure the distinction) will need a degree, pure and simple. Otherwise they will not even get past HR. Livecode is not going to help them do that. What Livecode is GREAT for methinks, is introducing someone to development without bogging them down in all the specifics of other mid level languages.

There are I'm sure great articles you can search for about basic coding principles. Things like make code readable, thinking about and diagramming out what the program will actually do, consistent and understandable variable and command naming, breaking everything down into discreet tasks, inclusion of error checking etc.

Bob S


> On Nov 1, 2019, at 03:23 , Graham Samuel via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I was disappointed that I only got one reply to my query about LC as a platform for learning programming - I thought this was a big thing with quite a few people on this list, some of whom are actually educators. Since I’ve failed in this, can someone suggest a better way of getting an answer (e.g. forums, mother ship)?
>
> TIA
>
> Graham
>
> I wrote:
>
>> I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea. However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.
>>
>> So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off - assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those on this list who do actually teach this stuff?
>>
>> The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to actually do the development work.
>>
>> Hoping for some insights
>>
>> Graham

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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
My recommendation is to have them start with scratch.mit.edu and spend a month making stuff with that language. Scratch is built for 1st graders to pick up and it is extremely satisfying as the starter language. They get exposed to all sorts of concepts, message passing, variables, flow control, multi-processing, it’s a great starter language. A month making stuff and then move to livecode.

Kee

> On Nov 1, 2019, at 3:23 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I was disappointed that I only got one reply to my query about LC as a platform for learning programming - I thought this was a big thing with quite a few people on this list, some of whom are actually educators. Since I’ve failed in this, can someone suggest a better way of getting an answer (e.g. forums, mother ship)?
>
> TIA
>
> Graham
>
> I wrote:
>
>> I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea. However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.
>>
>> So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off - assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those on this list who do actually teach this stuff?
>>
>> The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to actually do the development work.
>>
>> Hoping for some insights
>>
>> Graham
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
I have a radical disagreement with Scratch and its ilk as, while it does
allow one to run up simple computer games, it does not let users see the
"guts" of a program, and seems not to give children transferrable skill for
non-block programming languages. I have successfully started kids from 9
years old and upward on programming with both BBC BASIC and Livecode.

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 6:00 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> My recommendation is to have them start with scratch.mit.edu and spend a
> month making stuff with that language. Scratch is built for 1st graders to
> pick up and it is extremely satisfying as the starter language. They get
> exposed to all sorts of concepts, message passing, variables, flow control,
> multi-processing, it’s a great starter language. A month making stuff and
> then move to livecode.
>
> Kee
>
> > On Nov 1, 2019, at 3:23 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I was disappointed that I only got one reply to my query about LC as a
> platform for learning programming - I thought this was a big thing with
> quite a few people on this list, some of whom are actually educators. Since
> I’ve failed in this, can someone suggest a better way of getting an answer
> (e.g. forums, mother ship)?
> >
> > TIA
> >
> > Graham
> >
> > I wrote:
> >
> >> I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the
> first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world
> of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions
> myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an
> educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea.
> However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.
> >>
> >> So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off -
> assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology
> such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social
> media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in
> designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a
> program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and
> why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those
> on this list who do actually teach this stuff?
> >>
> >> The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years
> (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of
> that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a
> cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC
> Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea
> may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to
> actually do the development work.
> >>
> >> Hoping for some insights
> >>
> >> Graham
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
I am with Richmond, mainly.
I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the United States.
LC, if you introduce only a  handful or three of native words, controls and concepts, is accessible to anyone with a real desire to learn this sort of thing. Even a first grader; they just need more mentoring. Even someone who did not know they would like to build stuff in software.
The trick is the engagement, to make it seem cool and fun.
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email]>
Cc: Richmond Mathewson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, Nov 1, 2019 12:59 pm
Subject: Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

I have a radical disagreement with Scratch and its ilk as, while it does
allow one to run up simple computer games, it does not let users see the
"guts" of a program, and seems not to give children transferrable skill for
non-block programming languages. I have successfully started kids from 9
years old and upward on programming with both BBC BASIC and Livecode.

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 6:00 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> My recommendation is to have them start with scratch.mit.edu and spend a
> month making stuff with that language. Scratch is built for 1st graders to
> pick up and it is extremely satisfying as the starter language. They get
> exposed to all sorts of concepts, message passing, variables, flow control,
> multi-processing, it’s a great starter language. A month making stuff and
> then move to livecode.
>
> Kee
>
> > On Nov 1, 2019, at 3:23 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I was disappointed that I only got one reply to my query about LC as a
> platform for learning programming - I thought this was a big thing with
> quite a few people on this list, some of whom are actually educators. Since
> I’ve failed in this, can someone suggest a better way of getting an answer
> (e.g. forums, mother ship)?
> >
> > TIA
> >
> > Graham
> >
> > I wrote:
> >
> >> I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the
> first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world
> of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions
> myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an
> educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea.
> However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.
> >>
> >> So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off -
> assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology
> such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social
> media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in
> designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a
> program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and
> why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those
> on this list who do actually teach this stuff?
> >>
> >> The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years
> (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of
> that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a
> cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC
> Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea
> may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to
> actually do the development work.
> >>
> >> Hoping for some insights
> >>
> >> Graham
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
quote : I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the
United States. /quote

If we the Dutch go to Germany we talk German, if we go to France many of
us not all talk French, if we go to other countries we talk mainly English.

If Germans or French come to our country we talk their language or english

Try to learn Dutch, if we had'nt sold New York to the Brittish you'd all
talk Dutch

And partly thank God it happened or we'd all would listen to Dutch music
today and most of it i can't stand :)

there was another point i wanted to make, but during typing i forgot.


Back on topic, Java or Kotlin is something i would want to try, but it's
more difficult, although everyone says their language is so easy.
Livecode is best to step in.


Op 1-11-2019 om 18:52 schreef dunbarx--- via use-livecode:

> I am with Richmond, mainly.
> I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the United States.
> LC, if you introduce only a  handful or three of native words, controls and concepts, is accessible to anyone with a real desire to learn this sort of thing. Even a first grader; they just need more mentoring. Even someone who did not know they would like to build stuff in software.
> The trick is the engagement, to make it seem cool and fun.
> Craig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
> To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Richmond Mathewson <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Fri, Nov 1, 2019 12:59 pm
> Subject: Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?
>
> I have a radical disagreement with Scratch and its ilk as, while it does
> allow one to run up simple computer games, it does not let users see the
> "guts" of a program, and seems not to give children transferrable skill for
> non-block programming languages. I have successfully started kids from 9
> years old and upward on programming with both BBC BASIC and Livecode.
>
> On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 6:00 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> My recommendation is to have them start with scratch.mit.edu and spend a
>> month making stuff with that language. Scratch is built for 1st graders to
>> pick up and it is extremely satisfying as the starter language. They get
>> exposed to all sorts of concepts, message passing, variables, flow control,
>> multi-processing, it’s a great starter language. A month making stuff and
>> then move to livecode.
>>
>> Kee
>>
>>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 3:23 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I was disappointed that I only got one reply to my query about LC as a
>> platform for learning programming - I thought this was a big thing with
>> quite a few people on this list, some of whom are actually educators. Since
>> I’ve failed in this, can someone suggest a better way of getting an answer
>> (e.g. forums, mother ship)?
>>> TIA
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>>> I wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the
>> first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world
>> of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions
>> myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an
>> educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea.
>> However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.
>>>> So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off -
>> assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology
>> such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social
>> media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in
>> designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a
>> program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and
>> why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those
>> on this list who do actually teach this stuff?
>>>> The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years
>> (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of
>> that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a
>> cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC
>> Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea
>> may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to
>> actually do the development work.
>>>> Hoping for some insights
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
" Try to learn Dutch, if we had'nt sold New York to the Brittish you'd all  talk Dutch"

LOL

The other point you maybe wanted to make but forgotten is to mention The Dutch East India Company, officially the United East India Company (in Dutch the VOC).
VOC became the world's first formally listed public company. In other words, it was the first corporation to be listed on an official stock exchange. It was influential in the rise of corporate-led globalisation in the early modern period.

I am proud to be Dutch :)

On 01/11/2019, 19:29, "use-livecode on behalf of JJS via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    quote : I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the
    United States. /quote
   
    If we the Dutch go to Germany we talk German, if we go to France many of
    us not all talk French, if we go to other countries we talk mainly English.
   
    If Germans or French come to our country we talk their language or english
   
    Try to learn Dutch, if we had'nt sold New York to the Brittish you'd all
    talk Dutch
   
    And partly thank God it happened or we'd all would listen to Dutch music
    today and most of it i can't stand :)
   
    there was another point i wanted to make, but during typing i forgot.
   
   
    Back on topic, Java or Kotlin is something i would want to try, but it's
    more difficult, although everyone says their language is so easy.
    Livecode is best to step in.
   
   
    Op 1-11-2019 om 18:52 schreef dunbarx--- via use-livecode:
    > I am with Richmond, mainly.
    > I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the United States.
    > LC, if you introduce only a  handful or three of native words, controls and concepts, is accessible to anyone with a real desire to learn this sort of thing. Even a first grader; they just need more mentoring. Even someone who did not know they would like to build stuff in software.
    > The trick is the engagement, to make it seem cool and fun.
    > Craig
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
    > To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email]>
    > Cc: Richmond Mathewson <[hidden email]>
    > Sent: Fri, Nov 1, 2019 12:59 pm
    > Subject: Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?
    >
    > I have a radical disagreement with Scratch and its ilk as, while it does
    > allow one to run up simple computer games, it does not let users see the
    > "guts" of a program, and seems not to give children transferrable skill for
    > non-block programming languages. I have successfully started kids from 9
    > years old and upward on programming with both BBC BASIC and Livecode.
    >
    > On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 6:00 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
    > [hidden email]> wrote:
    >
    >> My recommendation is to have them start with scratch.mit.edu and spend a
    >> month making stuff with that language. Scratch is built for 1st graders to
    >> pick up and it is extremely satisfying as the starter language. They get
    >> exposed to all sorts of concepts, message passing, variables, flow control,
    >> multi-processing, it’s a great starter language. A month making stuff and
    >> then move to livecode.
    >>
    >> Kee
    >>
    >>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 3:23 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
    >> [hidden email]> wrote:
    >>> I was disappointed that I only got one reply to my query about LC as a
    >> platform for learning programming - I thought this was a big thing with
    >> quite a few people on this list, some of whom are actually educators. Since
    >> I’ve failed in this, can someone suggest a better way of getting an answer
    >> (e.g. forums, mother ship)?
    >>> TIA
    >>>
    >>> Graham
    >>>
    >>> I wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the
    >> first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world
    >> of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions
    >> myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an
    >> educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea.
    >> However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.
    >>>> So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off -
    >> assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology
    >> such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social
    >> media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in
    >> designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a
    >> program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and
    >> why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those
    >> on this list who do actually teach this stuff?
    >>>> The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years
    >> (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of
    >> that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a
    >> cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC
    >> Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea
    >> may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to
    >> actually do the development work.
    >>>> Hoping for some insights
    >>>>
    >>>> Graham
    >>> _______________________________________________
    >>> use-livecode mailing list
    >>> [hidden email]
    >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
    >> subscription preferences:
    >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    >>
    >> _______________________________________________
    >> use-livecode mailing list
    >> [hidden email]
    >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
    >> subscription preferences:
    >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    >>
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > [hidden email]
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
    > _______________________________________________
    > use-livecode mailing list
    > [hidden email]
    > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
   
    _______________________________________________
    use-livecode mailing list
    [hidden email]
    Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
    http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
   



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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Also a very good point !

Thanks Erik.

Op 1-11-2019 om 19:43 schreef Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode:

> " Try to learn Dutch, if we had'nt sold New York to the Brittish you'd all  talk Dutch"
>
> LOL
>
> The other point you maybe wanted to make but forgotten is to mention The Dutch East India Company, officially the United East India Company (in Dutch the VOC).
> VOC became the world's first formally listed public company. In other words, it was the first corporation to be listed on an official stock exchange. It was influential in the rise of corporate-led globalisation in the early modern period.
>
> I am proud to be Dutch :)
>
> On 01/11/2019, 19:29, "use-livecode on behalf of JJS via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>      quote : I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the
>      United States. /quote
>      
>      If we the Dutch go to Germany we talk German, if we go to France many of
>      us not all talk French, if we go to other countries we talk mainly English.
>      
>      If Germans or French come to our country we talk their language or english
>      
>      Try to learn Dutch, if we had'nt sold New York to the Brittish you'd all
>      talk Dutch
>      
>      And partly thank God it happened or we'd all would listen to Dutch music
>      today and most of it i can't stand :)
>      
>      there was another point i wanted to make, but during typing i forgot.
>      
>      
>      Back on topic, Java or Kotlin is something i would want to try, but it's
>      more difficult, although everyone says their language is so easy.
>      Livecode is best to step in.
>      
>      
>      Op 1-11-2019 om 18:52 schreef dunbarx--- via use-livecode:
>      > I am with Richmond, mainly.
>      > I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the United States.
>      > LC, if you introduce only a  handful or three of native words, controls and concepts, is accessible to anyone with a real desire to learn this sort of thing. Even a first grader; they just need more mentoring. Even someone who did not know they would like to build stuff in software.
>      > The trick is the engagement, to make it seem cool and fun.
>      > Craig
>      >
>      >
>      > -----Original Message-----
>      > From: Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
>      > To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email]>
>      > Cc: Richmond Mathewson <[hidden email]>
>      > Sent: Fri, Nov 1, 2019 12:59 pm
>      > Subject: Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?
>      >
>      > I have a radical disagreement with Scratch and its ilk as, while it does
>      > allow one to run up simple computer games, it does not let users see the
>      > "guts" of a program, and seems not to give children transferrable skill for
>      > non-block programming languages. I have successfully started kids from 9
>      > years old and upward on programming with both BBC BASIC and Livecode.
>      >
>      > On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 6:00 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
>      > [hidden email]> wrote:
>      >
>      >> My recommendation is to have them start with scratch.mit.edu and spend a
>      >> month making stuff with that language. Scratch is built for 1st graders to
>      >> pick up and it is extremely satisfying as the starter language. They get
>      >> exposed to all sorts of concepts, message passing, variables, flow control,
>      >> multi-processing, it’s a great starter language. A month making stuff and
>      >> then move to livecode.
>      >>
>      >> Kee
>      >>
>      >>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 3:23 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
>      >> [hidden email]> wrote:
>      >>> I was disappointed that I only got one reply to my query about LC as a
>      >> platform for learning programming - I thought this was a big thing with
>      >> quite a few people on this list, some of whom are actually educators. Since
>      >> I’ve failed in this, can someone suggest a better way of getting an answer
>      >> (e.g. forums, mother ship)?
>      >>> TIA
>      >>>
>      >>> Graham
>      >>>
>      >>> I wrote:
>      >>>
>      >>>> I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the
>      >> first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world
>      >> of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions
>      >> myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an
>      >> educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea.
>      >> However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.
>      >>>> So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off -
>      >> assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology
>      >> such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social
>      >> media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in
>      >> designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a
>      >> program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and
>      >> why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those
>      >> on this list who do actually teach this stuff?
>      >>>> The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years
>      >> (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of
>      >> that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a
>      >> cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC
>      >> Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea
>      >> may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to
>      >> actually do the development work.
>      >>>> Hoping for some insights
>      >>>>
>      >>>> Graham
>      >>> _______________________________________________
>      >>> use-livecode mailing list
>      >>> [hidden email]
>      >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>      >> subscription preferences:
>      >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>      >>
>      >> _______________________________________________
>      >> use-livecode mailing list
>      >> [hidden email]
>      >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>      >> subscription preferences:
>      >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>      >>
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > use-livecode mailing list
>      > [hidden email]
>      > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>      > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > use-livecode mailing list
>      > [hidden email]
>      > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>      > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>      
>      _______________________________________________
>      use-livecode mailing list
>      [hidden email]
>      Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>      http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>      
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
we were very often in the Netherlands for vacation, so i seriously tried to learn Dutch.
But it ended that the Dutch better understood me when i spoke German or English instead of Dutch. ;)

Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>

> Am 01.11.2019 um 19:28 schrieb JJS via use-livecode <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
> quote : I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the United States. /quote
>
> If we the Dutch go to Germany we talk German, if we go to France many of us not all talk French, if we go to other countries we talk mainly English.
>
> If Germans or French come to our country we talk their language or english
>
> Try to learn Dutch, if we had'nt sold New York to the Brittish you'd all talk Dutch
>
> And partly thank God it happened or we'd all would listen to Dutch music today and most of it i can't stand :)
>
> there was another point i wanted to make, but during typing i forgot.
>
>
> Back on topic, Java or Kotlin is something i would want to try, but it's more difficult, although everyone says their language is so easy. Livecode is best to step in.
>
>
> Op 1-11-2019 om 18:52 schreef dunbarx--- via use-livecode:
>> I am with Richmond, mainly.
>> I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the United States.
>> LC, if you introduce only a  handful or three of native words, controls and concepts, is accessible to anyone with a real desire to learn this sort of thing. Even a first grader; they just need more mentoring. Even someone who did not know they would like to build stuff in software.
>> The trick is the engagement, to make it seem cool and fun.
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> Cc: Richmond Mathewson <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> Sent: Fri, Nov 1, 2019 12:59 pm
>> Subject: Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?
>>
>> I have a radical disagreement with Scratch and its ilk as, while it does
>> allow one to run up simple computer games, it does not let users see the
>> "guts" of a program, and seems not to give children transferrable skill for
>> non-block programming languages. I have successfully started kids from 9
>> years old and upward on programming with both BBC BASIC and Livecode.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 6:00 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>> My recommendation is to have them start with scratch.mit.edu <http://scratch.mit.edu/> and spend a
>>> month making stuff with that language. Scratch is built for 1st graders to
>>> pick up and it is extremely satisfying as the starter language. They get
>>> exposed to all sorts of concepts, message passing, variables, flow control,
>>> multi-processing, it’s a great starter language. A month making stuff and
>>> then move to livecode.
>>>
>>> Kee
>>>
>>>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 3:23 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
>>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>> I was disappointed that I only got one reply to my query about LC as a
>>> platform for learning programming - I thought this was a big thing with
>>> quite a few people on this list, some of whom are actually educators. Since
>>> I’ve failed in this, can someone suggest a better way of getting an answer
>>> (e.g. forums, mother ship)?
>>>> TIA
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>>> I wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be the
>>> first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the world
>>> of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more questions
>>> myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an
>>> educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup idea.
>>> However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to LiveCode.
>>>>> So my question to the community is, how would such a person start off -
>>> assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level technology
>>> such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and social
>>> media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is involved in
>>> designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a
>>> program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC (and
>>> why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view of those
>>> on this list who do actually teach this stuff?
>>>>> The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50 years
>>> (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the mind of
>>> that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to find a
>>> cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use the LC
>>> Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but that idea
>>> may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform to
>>> actually do the development work.
>>>>> Hoping for some insights
>>>>>
>>>>> Graham
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode <http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Dr. Pol is Dutch. I love that show.

Bob S


> On Nov 1, 2019, at 15:31 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> we were very often in the Netherlands for vacation, so i seriously tried to learn Dutch.
> But it ended that the Dutch better understood me when i spoke German or English instead of Dutch. ;)
>
> Matthias Rebbe
>
> free tools for Livecoders:


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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
At least you tried ;) German and Dutch come have much similarities. In a previous job i had to drive to many German customers from Hamburg to Stuttgart (among was Porsche ausbildung-school) and lived for 5 years in Germany too. Near the border there are lots who understand dutch.

Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode <[hidden email]> schreef op 1 november 2019 23:31:26 CET:

>we were very often in the Netherlands for vacation, so i seriously
>tried to learn Dutch.
>But it ended that the Dutch better understood me when i spoke German or
>English instead of Dutch. ;)
>
>Matthias Rebbe
>
>free tools for Livecoders:
>InstaMaker <https://instamaker.dermattes.de/>
>WinSignMaker Mac <https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de/>
>
>> Am 01.11.2019 um 19:28 schrieb JJS via use-livecode
><[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>>
>> quote : I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the
>United States. /quote
>>
>> If we the Dutch go to Germany we talk German, if we go to France many
>of us not all talk French, if we go to other countries we talk mainly
>English.
>>
>> If Germans or French come to our country we talk their language or
>english
>>
>> Try to learn Dutch, if we had'nt sold New York to the Brittish you'd
>all talk Dutch
>>
>> And partly thank God it happened or we'd all would listen to Dutch
>music today and most of it i can't stand :)
>>
>> there was another point i wanted to make, but during typing i forgot.
>>
>>
>> Back on topic, Java or Kotlin is something i would want to try, but
>it's more difficult, although everyone says their language is so easy.
>Livecode is best to step in.
>>
>>
>> Op 1-11-2019 om 18:52 schreef dunbarx--- via use-livecode:
>>> I am with Richmond, mainly.
>>> I hate to learn another language. That is why I live in the United
>States.
>>> LC, if you introduce only a  handful or three of native words,
>controls and concepts, is accessible to anyone with a real desire to
>learn this sort of thing. Even a first grader; they just need more
>mentoring. Even someone who did not know they would like to build stuff
>in software.
>>> The trick is the engagement, to make it seem cool and fun.
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode
><[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>> To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email]
><mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>> Cc: Richmond Mathewson <[hidden email]
><mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>> Sent: Fri, Nov 1, 2019 12:59 pm
>>> Subject: Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?
>>>
>>> I have a radical disagreement with Scratch and its ilk as, while it
>does
>>> allow one to run up simple computer games, it does not let users see
>the
>>> "guts" of a program, and seems not to give children transferrable
>skill for
>>> non-block programming languages. I have successfully started kids
>from 9
>>> years old and upward on programming with both BBC BASIC and
>Livecode.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 6:00 PM kee nethery via use-livecode <
>>> [hidden email]
><mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My recommendation is to have them start with scratch.mit.edu
><http://scratch.mit.edu/> and spend a
>>>> month making stuff with that language. Scratch is built for 1st
>graders to
>>>> pick up and it is extremely satisfying as the starter language.
>They get
>>>> exposed to all sorts of concepts, message passing, variables, flow
>control,
>>>> multi-processing, it’s a great starter language. A month making
>stuff and
>>>> then move to livecode.
>>>>
>>>> Kee
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 3:23 AM, Graham Samuel via use-livecode <
>>>> [hidden email]
><mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>> I was disappointed that I only got one reply to my query about LC
>as a
>>>> platform for learning programming - I thought this was a big thing
>with
>>>> quite a few people on this list, some of whom are actually
>educators. Since
>>>> I’ve failed in this, can someone suggest a better way of getting an
>answer
>>>> (e.g. forums, mother ship)?
>>>>> TIA
>>>>>
>>>>> Graham
>>>>>
>>>>> I wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have been approached by one of my family to ask what would be
>the
>>>> first steps for someone (a young adult) to enable them to enter the
>world
>>>> of app design and programming. Obviously I need to ask more
>questions
>>>> myself, such as whether this would be to get a job, or simply as an
>>>> educational exercise, or maybe to provide a launchpad for a startup
>idea.
>>>> However, even at this stage, of course my thoughts turned to
>LiveCode.
>>>>>> So my question to the community is, how would such a person start
>off -
>>>> assuming they’re intelligent, very familiar with consumer-level
>technology
>>>> such as smart phones, tablets, laptop computers for study etc. and
>social
>>>> media, but probably have never seen or thought about what is
>involved in
>>>> designing, implementing and publishing an app (I would just say “a
>>>> program”, but that shows how old I am) on any platform? If it is LC
>(and
>>>> why not?), are the published lessons sufficient? What is the view
>of those
>>>> on this list who do actually teach this stuff?
>>>>>> The trouble for me is that I have been around all this for 50
>years
>>>> (more, to be truthful) and so can’t project myself well into the
>mind of
>>>> that kind of newbie. One guess is that one way to start would be to
>find a
>>>> cheap hardware platform (probably an Android tablet) and try to use
>the LC
>>>> Community Edition to allow me to create something for that; but
>that idea
>>>> may be stupid, particularly as one would need a different platform
>to
>>>> actually do the development work.
>>>>>> Hoping for some insights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Graham
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
><mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
><http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
><mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>_______________________________________________
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>[hidden email]
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--
Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations?

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Yes we watch it too, he is famous. I love when his son tries to speak dutch haha. Sometimes his brother is in the show, then you can hear some Drents which is different from normal dutch but not as hard as Fries that's a language on it's own.

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <[hidden email]> schreef op 1 november 2019 23:34:08 CET:

>Dr. Pol is Dutch. I love that show.
>
>Bob S
>
>
>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 15:31 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode
><[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> we were very often in the Netherlands for vacation, so i seriously
>tried to learn Dutch.
>> But it ended that the Dutch better understood me when i spoke German
>or English instead of Dutch. ;)
>>
>> Matthias Rebbe
>>
>> free tools for Livecoders:
>
>
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>use-livecode mailing list
>[hidden email]
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>subscription preferences:
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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Thanks to those who replied to my original question.

I also liked the OT diversion into learning Dutch. I have Dutch friends and I just don’t know how they successfully learn languages at school when other nationalities (British, French, Spanish etc) seem hopelessly bad at it. As an illustration I, a Brit, have spent a great deal of time in France and I can communicate more or less, but I would not say I can speak French. To say that would mean that I could express myself completely both aurally and in written form, have no trouble reading anything in print or watching anything on tv, and probably should be able to dream in French. Sadly it will just never happen.

Back to the grindstone (what’s the equivalent of that in French?).

Graham

PS In my experience, Germans are also pretty good at languages: years ago I met a polylingual man in Munich who told me that at his school, the English master made them discuss the difference between a blunder, and error and a mistake!

> On 2 Nov 2019, at 08:27, JJS via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yes we watch it too, he is famous. I love when his son tries to speak dutch haha. Sometimes his brother is in the show, then you can hear some Drents which is different from normal dutch but not as hard as Fries that's a language on it's own.
>
> Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <[hidden email]> schreef op 1 november 2019 23:34:08 CET:
>> Dr. Pol is Dutch. I love that show.
>>
>> Bob S
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 15:31 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> we were very often in the Netherlands for vacation, so i seriously
>> tried to learn Dutch.
>>> But it ended that the Dutch better understood me when i spoke German
>> or English instead of Dutch. ;)
>>>
>>> Matthias Rebbe
>>>
>>> free tools for Livecoders:
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> --
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> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Funny, the mistake is why one got the error and thus had a blunder.

It seems that in Finland due to their school system that they are also
pretty good in languages, it also seems they have the highest learning
scores in Europe. Surprislngly it seems to be a system created in the
USA where it is apperantly not used as was said in the documentary.
Childeren first attend school when they are 7 with much less pression.
In NL they go to school when they are 4 and kindergarten at age 2 or 3.

I can also not tell why in some countries they learn languages easier
than in other countries.

Op 3-11-2019 om 17:08 schreef Graham Samuel via use-livecode:

> Thanks to those who replied to my original question.
>
> I also liked the OT diversion into learning Dutch. I have Dutch friends and I just don’t know how they successfully learn languages at school when other nationalities (British, French, Spanish etc) seem hopelessly bad at it. As an illustration I, a Brit, have spent a great deal of time in France and I can communicate more or less, but I would not say I can speak French. To say that would mean that I could express myself completely both aurally and in written form, have no trouble reading anything in print or watching anything on tv, and probably should be able to dream in French. Sadly it will just never happen.
>
> Back to the grindstone (what’s the equivalent of that in French?).
>
> Graham
>
> PS In my experience, Germans are also pretty good at languages: years ago I met a polylingual man in Munich who told me that at his school, the English master made them discuss the difference between a blunder, and error and a mistake!
>
>> On 2 Nov 2019, at 08:27, JJS via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes we watch it too, he is famous. I love when his son tries to speak dutch haha. Sometimes his brother is in the show, then you can hear some Drents which is different from normal dutch but not as hard as Fries that's a language on it's own.
>>
>> Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <[hidden email]> schreef op 1 november 2019 23:34:08 CET:
>>> Dr. Pol is Dutch. I love that show.
>>>
>>> Bob S
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 15:31 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> we were very often in the Netherlands for vacation, so i seriously
>>> tried to learn Dutch.
>>>> But it ended that the Dutch better understood me when i spoke German
>>> or English instead of Dutch. ;)
>>>> Matthias Rebbe
>>>>
>>>> free tools for Livecoders:
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> --
>> Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
I'm not sure if in some countries kids learn languages more easily than
in others.

But, I do think:

1. In English-speaking countries there is an unconscious feeling that
learning a foreign language is not 100%
serious as "all the world learns English."

2. Many countries where the national language(s) is/are only confined to
that country (as in Bulgaria)
there is a realisation that any school kid who does not learn at least
one more widespread language
(such as English) is going to have a very restricted list of choices re
jobs (especially internationally)
when they are adults.

3. Where foreign languages are taught by immersion in the target
language (i.e. instruction is entirely
in the L2 without any use of the L1) fluency in the L2 is acquired more
rapidly and more completely.

It should also be remembered that the younger the pupil, the more
plastic and impressionable the brain:
after all, do you remember learning your Mother-tongue? No, of course, I
thought not.  :)

4. If the target language belongs to the same language family as the L1
(i.e. German to English, Hindi to English: all Indo-European languages)
acquisition
will be far, far easier than between language families (i.e. kiSwahlil
to English, French to Chinese).

On 3.11.19 23:25, JJS via use-livecode wrote:

> Funny, the mistake is why one got the error and thus had a blunder.
>
> It seems that in Finland due to their school system that they are also
> pretty good in languages, it also seems they have the highest learning
> scores in Europe. Surprislngly it seems to be a system created in the
> USA where it is apperantly not used as was said in the documentary.
> Childeren first attend school when they are 7 with much less pression.
> In NL they go to school when they are 4 and kindergarten at age 2 or 3.
>
> I can also not tell why in some countries they learn languages easier
> than in other countries.
>
> Op 3-11-2019 om 17:08 schreef Graham Samuel via use-livecode:
>> Thanks to those who replied to my original question.
>>
>> I also liked the OT diversion into learning Dutch. I have Dutch
>> friends and I just don’t know how they successfully learn languages
>> at school when other nationalities (British, French, Spanish etc)
>> seem hopelessly bad at it. As an illustration I, a Brit, have spent a
>> great deal of time in France and I can communicate more or less, but
>> I would not say I can speak French. To say that would mean that I
>> could express myself completely both aurally and in written form,
>> have no trouble reading anything in print or watching anything on tv,
>> and probably should be able to dream in French. Sadly it will just
>> never happen.
>>
>> Back to the grindstone (what’s the equivalent of that in French?).
>>
>> Graham
>>
>> PS In my experience, Germans are also pretty good at languages: years
>> ago I met a polylingual man in Munich who told me that at his school,
>> the English master made them discuss the difference between a
>> blunder, and error and a mistake!
>>
>>> On 2 Nov 2019, at 08:27, JJS via use-livecode
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes we watch it too, he is famous. I love when his son tries to
>>> speak dutch haha. Sometimes his brother is in the show, then you can
>>> hear some Drents which is different from normal dutch but not as
>>> hard as Fries that's a language on it's own.
>>>
>>> Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <[hidden email]> schreef
>>> op 1 november 2019 23:34:08 CET:
>>>> Dr. Pol is Dutch. I love that show.
>>>>
>>>> Bob S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 15:31 , Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> we were very often in the Netherlands for vacation, so i seriously
>>>> tried to learn Dutch.
>>>>> But it ended that the Dutch better understood me when i spoke German
>>>> or English instead of Dutch. ;)
>>>>> Matthias Rebbe
>>>>>
>>>>> free tools for Livecoders:
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> --
>>> Verstuurd vanaf mijn Android apparaat met K-9 Mail.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
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>
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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
The problem of learning human languages is not very different
from the problem of learning programming languages.

TMHO, not knowing JavaScript is comparable to not knowing Spanish
(the dominant language in the USA).

We all are more or less idiots.

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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin via use-livecode

On 03/11/2019 22:04, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:
> I'm not sure if in some countries kids learn languages more easily
> than in others.
>
> But, I do think:
>
> 1. In English-speaking countries there is an unconscious feeling that
> learning a foreign language is not 100%
> serious as "all the world learns English."
>
No, it's surely simpler than that.

For an English speaker, a rational analysis shows that the Return on
Investment for learning *any* other language is much lower than the RoI
for anyone else thinking of learning English.

Learning another language is (for most of us) difficult - it takes a lot
of time, energy and effort; so it's a legitimate question whether or not
it is worth that investment ?

Although Mandarin and Hindi are spoken by more people than English, the
great majority of those people are  very unlikely to be encountered by
any English speaker.

Spanish has some claim - but outside of South America its numbers are
much smaller - and the percentage of those outside South America who
don't also speak English is (I suspect - can't find reliable numbers to
back it up) probably low.

There are many good reasons to learn another language, ranging from the
well-proven neurological benefits of multiple languages to the simple
common courtesy of doing so - but in straightforward "increase in
ability to communicate" I'm unconvinced that an English speaker gains
enough to justify the effort.

Better to put the time / money into supporting EFL / ESL for others :-)

Alex, only partially tongue in cheek.

P.S. hmmm  does that argument also apply to Livecode ??



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Re: Learning from scratch - any recommendations? [with OT additions]

Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
I'll just throw this in the mix. I find in America that where once people spoke the language common to their immediate society (the people around them) now people seem to not care. We have 3 slovakian volleyball players at the beach who in spite of speaking perfectly good english, revert to slovakian often, for which I chide them regularly. It's like walking over to a corner in a party and whispering to each other while everyone looks on. I find it rude.

Bob S


> On Nov 3, 2019, at 17:33 , Alex Tweedly via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On 03/11/2019 22:04, Richmond via use-livecode wrote:
>> I'm not sure if in some countries kids learn languages more easily than in others.
>>
>> But, I do think:
>>
>> 1. In English-speaking countries there is an unconscious feeling that learning a foreign language is not 100%
>> serious as "all the world learns English."
>>
> No, it's surely simpler than that.
>
> For an English speaker, a rational analysis shows that the Return on Investment for learning *any* other language is much lower than the RoI for anyone else thinking of learning English.
>
> Learning another language is (for most of us) difficult - it takes a lot of time, energy and effort; so it's a legitimate question whether or not it is worth that investment ?
>
> Although Mandarin and Hindi are spoken by more people than English, the great majority of those people are  very unlikely to be encountered by any English speaker.
>
> Spanish has some claim - but outside of South America its numbers are much smaller - and the percentage of those outside South America who don't also speak English is (I suspect - can't find reliable numbers to back it up) probably low.
>
> There are many good reasons to learn another language, ranging from the well-proven neurological benefits of multiple languages to the simple common courtesy of doing so - but in straightforward "increase in ability to communicate" I'm unconvinced that an English speaker gains enough to justify the effort.
>
> Better to put the time / money into supporting EFL / ESL for others :-)
>
> Alex, only partially tongue in cheek.
>
> P.S. hmmm  does that argument also apply to Livecode ??
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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