LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

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LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
I install 8.2.0 DP-1 with great excitement and anticipation.

10 minutes into using it I find it is regularly dropping keystrokes when working
in the Script Editor.

Close all other programs on the desktop, still happening.

I use a wireless keyboard keyboard, so giving LiveCode the benefit of the doubt,
put in a fresh pair of batteries. Still happening.

OK, connect my trusty Logitech USB wired keyboard and reboot Windows and start
up LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1.

Carefully type the following in the Script Editor, using my 2 finger typing
skills:

  put 5 into item 1 of rectBuffer

Looking up from the keyboard, this is what has been added my code:

  put nto 3 ectfer

Anticipating, the chorus of "Works fine for me!" Contemplate setting up video
camera to show what is happening.

Decide that I have already wasted more than enough time this morning, and simply
feel like crying.

The End.

For anyone who cares, the script is about 7000 lines and the specs of my machine
are:

Operating System
 Windows 10 Home 64-bit
CPU
 Intel Core i5 6600K @ 3.50GHz
 Skylake 14nm Technology
RAM
 16.0GB Dual-Channel Unknown @ 1065MHz (15-15-15-35)
Motherboard
 Gigabyte Technology Co. Ltd. Z170-D3H-CF (U3E1)
Graphics
 S24D300 (1920x1080@60Hz)
 4095MB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960 (Gigabyte)
Storage
 111GB Samsung SSD 850 EVO 120GB (SSD)
 931GB Seagate ST1000DX001-1NS162 (SATA)

--
Scott McDonald
http://thelivecodelab.com/

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
Hi Scott

This will obviously need to be fixed before we can go to RC. The only reason I can think for dropped keystrokes is if the windows engine somehow ignores them if it’s busy so the messages aren’t sent. I’ll need to see what Mark thinks on that. However, regardless of that we will need to make sure there’s nothing blocking typing. In theory it shouldn’t be autocomplete as it doesn’t do anything unless you haven’t been typing for 200 milliseconds, however, it’s obviously some change I’ve made...

A couple of questions:

- did you notice any dropped keystrokes in earlier versions and it’s just worse or is this something completely new for you?
- do you feel like it got gradually worse over the 10 minutes to the point of being unusable or do you think it was consistently bad all the way through

Cheers

Monte

> On 18 Sep 2017, at 9:58 am, RunRevPlanet via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I install 8.2.0 DP-1 with great excitement and anticipation.
>
> 10 minutes into using it I find it is regularly dropping keystrokes when working
> in the Script Editor.
>
> Close all other programs on the desktop, still happening.
>
> I use a wireless keyboard keyboard, so giving LiveCode the benefit of the doubt,
> put in a fresh pair of batteries. Still happening.
>
> OK, connect my trusty Logitech USB wired keyboard and reboot Windows and start
> up LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1.
>
> Carefully type the following in the Script Editor, using my 2 finger typing
> skills:
>
>  put 5 into item 1 of rectBuffer
>
> Looking up from the keyboard, this is what has been added my code:
>
>  put nto 3 ectfer
>
> Anticipating, the chorus of "Works fine for me!" Contemplate setting up video
> camera to show what is happening.
>
> Decide that I have already wasted more than enough time this morning, and simply
> feel like crying.
>
> The End.


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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
On 9/17/17 6:58 PM, RunRevPlanet via use-livecode wrote:

> Carefully type the following in the Script Editor, using my 2 finger typing
> skills:
>
>    put 5 into item 1 of rectBuffer
>
> Looking up from the keyboard, this is what has been added my code:
>
>    put nto 3 ectfer
...
> Decide that I have already wasted more than enough time this morning, and simply
> feel like crying.

<hands you a tissue>

> For anyone who cares, the script is about 7000 lines

I'd guess it's the 7000 lines. The autocomplete lookups may not be able
to deal with that much text fast enough. Does it work for you with a
tiny little script? How about if you type one letter at a time and count
to five in between? Or 10?

It won't help but at least you'd know where the problem is.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
I have opened this report for you:

http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20410 <http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20410>

Cheers

Monte
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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
Monte,

Thank you for submitting Bug 20410.

I open the Script Editor, move to about line 5000 and start typing, and
keystrokes are dropped. This is on a freshly started LiveCode IDE, so I don't
need to wait 10 minutes for it happen.

LiveCode 8.1.6 is sluggish with the same 7000 lines of code, but it is usable
(although I always wish it didn't have noticeable pauses when switching windows
etc) and never drops keystrokes.

Did a quick test with 8.2.0 DP-1 in a script of only 800 lines and the problem
does not occur.

Unless there is something unique about my machine and LiveCode scripting style,
I guess the lesson is to make sure DP's are tested under Windows with big chunks
of user code in the Script Editor. (If that does not already occur.)
--
Scott McDonald
http://thelivecodelab.com/

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode

> On 18 Sep 2017, at 12:14 pm, LiveCode Feeds via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> move to about line 5000

Is ^ a critical part of the recipe?

Cheers

Monte
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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
Hi Monte,

>> move to about line 5000
>
>Is ^ a critical part of the recipe?

No. I just tested typing in the first handler in the same 7000 line stack
script, which is at around only line 100, and keystrokes were dropped on the
first line I typed. The IDE had been opened only moments before.

This handler has about 75 lines and was syntactically correct. Or at least it
was before I started typing nonsense because of the dropped key presses.

So the problem appears independent of where in the file I am working.
--
Scott McDonald
http://thelivecodelab.com/

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode

> On 18 Sep 2017, at 1:18 pm, RunRevPlanet via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So the problem appears independent of where in the file I am working.

Ok, great, I’m definitely reproducing it here

Thanks

Monte
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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
Monte,

> Ok, great, I’m definitely reproducing it here

Nice to know, I will leave it with you.

Good luck! My 2 cents worth says that the nature of the 8.x series engine and
the way the 8.x IDE is coded will make it a challenge.

Since 8.1.6 Stable is already "laggy" on my high spec PC and not as responsive
as I would like, it seems inevitable that an Autocomplete feature will make the
situation worse.

Already, I am forced to revert to 7.1.4, each time I use one of my lowest spec
machines because of travel and weight constraints.

With the trend to low cost portable machines with long battery life (especially
for students) the old approach of "Don't worry if the software runs slow, the
next Intel Generation will fix it!" is a risky strategy for a tool like LiveCode
that seems partially aimed at the education sector.

Unless fundamental issues like this, and Quality Control is given a long hard
look the LiveCode IDE is not going to win, or keep, the new users it needs.

Hard words, I know, but someone has to say it.

Basically, I cannot use 8.2.0 DP-1, so that is one extra set of eyes that are
not going to be going over it looking for bugs.

I hope 8.2.0 DP-2 comes out soon and fixes this issue.

--
Scott McDonald
http://thelivecodelab.com/

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode

> On 18 Sep 2017, at 2:20 pm, RunRevPlanet via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Monte,
>
>> Ok, great, I’m definitely reproducing it here
>
> Nice to know, I will leave it with you.

Don’t run off just yet. Can you give me some info on your SE font? Is it monospaced? I originally had the default font and I was seeing what you were seeing but to improve readability while I hacked around trying to find the issue I decided to install Hack as my font and the whole script editor is about 100 times faster. This leads me to believe that we should get on with our idea to distribute LC with one of the open source code fonts as the default SE font.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
No worries, I always use TTF Courier New, so yes it is monospaced.

Ugly? Maybe! But for me very readable, and installed almost everywhere.

--
Scott McDonald
http://thelivecodelab.com/

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
On 2017-09-18 08:13, RunRevPlanet via use-livecode wrote:
> No worries, I always use TTF Courier New, so yes it is monospaced.
>
> Ugly? Maybe! But for me very readable, and installed almost everywhere.

FWIW I think I fixed this first thing today:

    https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/5949

The windows key handling code is somewhat unpleasant but it seems to
solve the problem - hopefully it won't cause any regressions.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ [hidden email] ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
Hi Scott. DP means Developer Preview. It's not meant for production environments. It's so we can test new feathres before release. I'd definitely use 8.1.5 oe earlier.

Bob S


> On Sep 17, 2017, at 21:20 , RunRevPlanet via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Basically, I cannot use 8.2.0 DP-1, so that is one extra set of eyes that are
> not going to be going over it looking for bugs.
>
> I hope 8.2.0 DP-2 comes out soon and fixes this issue.
>
> --
> Scott McDonald
> http://thelivecodelab.com/


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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
On 09/17/2017 05:46 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

> I'd guess it's the 7000 lines. The autocomplete lookups may not be able
> to deal with that much text fast enough. Does it work for you with a
> tiny little script? How about if you type one letter at a time and count
> to five in between? Or 10?

FWIW, the glx2 script editor aggregates the necessary information for
autocompletion when you load a new script. There's a negligible delay at
startup while it parses all the stacks in use, but then no delay while
you're editing. Might be worth refactoring the SE if it's actually doing
a lookup for every keystroke.

--
  Mark Wieder
  [hidden email]

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
On 09/18/2017 08:07 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:
> you're editing. Might be worth refactoring the SE if it's actually doing
> a lookup for every keystroke.

sorry... I meant moomin...

--
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  [hidden email]

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode

> On 19 Sep 2017, at 1:07 am, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> FWIW, the glx2 script editor aggregates the necessary information for autocompletion when you load a new script. There's a negligible delay at startup while it parses all the stacks in use, but then no delay while you're editing. Might be worth refactoring the SE if it's actually doing a lookup for every keystroke.

No autocomplete doesn’t do all that much more per keystroke than the SE did previously unless you are editing placeholders. It was getting the linkText of the selection though and this takes a surprisingly long time for fields with a lot of content. I’ve tweaked things so it does’t need to do that.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
@Jacqueline,

> <hands you a tissue>

I meant say thank you for this last time, but got distracted. Tissues certainly
help with the way I was feeling the other day.

@Bob,

DP? I understand the risks of using a DP. But when a release is made with an
introduction that begins with:

> We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1...

and ends with:

> Have fun!

I get the impression that it has been made public because it is ready for us
developers can kick the tyres and try it out.

Nowhere did the Notes say:

"3. You might find it is totally unusable with real world scripts on some
Windows installations."

I get excited by a release (DP or otherwise) that is said to fix one of my pet
hates (selection of text in the IDE not working reliably) and then discover that
I can't even use it for real world coding. That is annoying and disappointing.

It troubles me that *any* release is made with an obvious "show stopper" bug.

It indicates that no one tested 8.2.0 DP-1 on a Windows box for any length of
time with any more than a few short scripts.

Doesn't this surprise you?

@Mark,

That is a quick fix! I look forward to 8.2.0 DP-2.
--
Scott McDonald
http://thelivecodelab.com/

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode

> On 20 Sep 2017, at 7:41 am, RunRevPlanet via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It troubles me that *any* release is made with an obvious "show stopper" bug.

Hi Scott

We release DPs to discover show stopper bugs. If you don’t want to be the one discovering them and reporting them then wait for at least RC 1 before downloading and hope that someone else has discovered what you might have discovered. Panos is very good at pre-release testing and does so on all platforms but we do not expect he has full coverage of every scenario. That’s why we have these releases.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
Hi Monte,

I do not expect full coverage of every scenario, but my setup and what I was
doing is so far from the edge case that is is right in the middle. (OK, maybe
7000 lines is a lot, but it is not that far from the centre, as far as complex
LiveCode applications go.)

* Can I respectfully suggest that, if it is not already, testing on a Windows
box and doing real work on a sizeable project (in terms of controls and code) be
made part of the check list for any release, DP or not?

I know that Panos is good at what he does, which makes me think that the above
is actually not being done. Whereas it should be mandatory: doing so would have
picked up the problem immediately.

I want to test DP's and do not want to wait for a RC for the very reason you
say. That is why I downloaded and installed it. But it is difficult for me to
test a DP that is broken. That is why I am frustrated and expressing these
concerns.

Always know that I complain and get annoyed because I actually care for
LiveCode. If I didn't care and want to help, I would have left long ago after
the sometimes one step forward, two steps back progress ever since the first
Kickstarter.

Regards,
--
Scott McDonald
http://thelivecodelab.com/

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Re: LiveCode 8.2.0 DP-1 Dropping Keystrokes in IDE

Tom Glod via use-livecode

> On 20 Sep 2017, at 12:05 pm, RunRevPlanet via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> * Can I respectfully suggest that, if it is not already, testing on a Windows
> box and doing real work on a sizeable project (in terms of controls and code) be
> made part of the check list for any release, DP or not?

Frustrating or not opening up and working on real projects and getting feedback on that is precisely what a DP is for. Particularly DP 1. We would have to invent real projects to work on and it probably still wouldn’t cut it in terms of coverage.

Anyway, the good news is thanks to your report a potentially long standing issue on the windows event queue has been fixed and I’ve refactored out something which was slowing things down in the main command that updates the text of the script editor. It’s still quite slow for long scripts on Windows when applying a completion or tabbing to the next placeholder. We will work on that as there seems to be some things that are dirtying the rect of the entire field rather than just the changed area, however, it’s obviously much less critical than regular typing. I’d also like to improve the default font for the SE and present a warning if someone chooses a font that isn’t monospace as monospace fonts make a big difference.

Cheers

Monte
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