Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

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Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

Alejandro Tejada
Hi all,

Previously, i have wrote about my fellow teachers that
i have invited to use RevMedia in their classes.

If you read those comments, you had learn that
they expect to receive training from the source,
from Runrev, not unlike Microsoft and Adobe
offers with their certification programs.

The idea of learning on their own, do not attract
too many of them. I know that this is the result of
previous experiences in trainings for other softwares.

This training should be offered in teacher's
native language. Although, revTalk should be keep
as an English-like programming language, without
trying to translate commands, functions, handlers,
messages and tokens to another languages.
(Different of Apple Computer, that actually localized
HyperTalk to many languages)

These teachers actually want that RevMedia, have an
interface more similar to Office programs like Word or
PowerPoint. The idea of scripting visual effects for
transitions from a card to another, or hiding or showing
a control seems so alien to them, that i suspect that
this useful feature (for their specific kind of work), would
be underutilized or unused at all.

Now, i am looking for comments about this idea:

To make easier for Teachers (or users), to know in which level
of expertise they stand, divide clearly the learning experience
in different levels, just like HyperCard do.

The following paragraph was copied from this page:
http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.03/03.10/HyperCardProgramming/index.html

There are 5 user levels within Hypercard. The top most level,
and easiest to use, is Browsing. This allows the user to navigate
through Stacks and look at information but not to add or modify it.

(My comment:
Given that Rev is multiplatform, i should add another
ability to this level that should be carried to others levels:
The ability of making clear and understable reports of failures or
malfunction of stacks to their authors, using screenshots and
written reports. This is really important and should be so easy, that
do not become a burden.)

The next two levels Typing and Painting allow the user to add or modify
written and graphic information. The last two levels are Authoring
and Scripting.

(My comment:
The Authoring level requires very good tutorials about
each part of Rev interface, because, as i wrote before, many Teachers
expect to take advantage of their experience using Office Software, while
they learn to use Rev. In fact, editing text in Rev seems (to many of them)
really "primitive", because they compare this task with their counterpart
in other programs. Rev needs to add menu items for common text
transformation functions like Uppercase or Lowercase, Sentence Case,
bulleted list, etc. or an accessible plug-in method to add them to a palette.

My approach to tackle this fear to authoring have been teaching them first:
1) how to create a stack
2) how to create cards (i told them that these are pages...)
3) how to navigate between cards (and their visual effect transitions)
4) how to change stack and cards properties (size, background colors,
etc. This part serves to teach them about inheritance of properties.)
5) how to create fields, buttons, image canvas (yes, if you could paint
on them is an image canvas), vector graphics, etc.
6) Changing key attributes of these objects (Some key attributes, not all)
6) how to import text, images and graphics.
7) how to hyperlink (text hyper linking should be a lot easier for novices)
8) how to show and hide controls (Now they learn that all these objects
are called controls inside RevMedia)
9) how to group controls and show them in different cards
10) Optimizing and reducing the Size of stack content.

Final Project: Choose one of the Gutenberg Project ebooks and
convert many of their chapters in a stack that shows concepts
like: multiple cards, hyperlinks, text formatting, optimal use of images,
visual effects transitions, groups placed in multiple cards, use of
colors, textures and blends.

This is my what i want to teach them to learn authoring in
RevMedia. Did i miss some important points (that they should
learn) in previous description?

About reaching the Scripting Level, i could tell you the reactions that
i have observed when i show them five binders of printed documentation
from Rev dictionaries and other materials. (Notice that i have not printed
all documentation available.)

My favorite remark: "Do you actually expect that i learn all this to use
this program?"

Obviously the answer is no, but i bet that this is the reaction of many
when they learn about the extension of the revTalk language.

I believe that they should learn to comment and debug other
people's code, while they start learning to write their own handlers.

By any chance, Have you seen the expression of fear when a newbie
choose "Quit" from the script editor and the whole program closes?
(He was expecting to "Quit" only the task that he was doing, that is,
quit scripting a control in the stack)

I believe that we could make a stack that "guides" newbies in this task
of commenting other people code.

I would like to read comments on the Authoring part, because
this is the topic of the tutorials i am working now.

Thanks in advance for your comments!

Alejandro
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PDF version of dictionary?

Marian Petrides, MD
Is there a PDF version of the Dictionary for v 4.0 available?  If so, where can I find it?

Also, does anyone know whether the hard copy (print edition) of the Dictionary that is offered on RunRev's website is for v 4 or some earlier version?  TIA

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Re: PDF version of dictionary?

Matthias Rebbe
Hi,

i sent the question about a PDF version of the dictionary to support already some days ago.
As soon as i get an answer, i will post it here.

Regards,

Matthias

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: PDF version of dictionary? (17-Nov-2009 21:39)
From:    Marian Petrides <[hidden email]>
To:      [hidden email]

> Is there a PDF version of the Dictionary for v 4.0 available?  If so, where
> can I find it?
>
> Also, does anyone know whether the hard copy (print edition) of the
> Dictionary that is offered on RunRev's website is for v 4 or some earlier
> version?  TIA
>
> Marian_______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>
>
>
>
> To: [hidden email]


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Re: PDF version of dictionary?

Stephen Barncard-4
I don't see a pdf offered anywhere.

Don't forget the new ONLINE version of the docs
http://docs.runrev.com/

I'm guessing that the engine and IDE change so much over time that they have
eliminated the PDF format for the *dictionary*, as I imagine it's much
harder to create a new PDF version for every time there is an update,  as
opposed to the online (which can always be updated) and distributed versions
(which are true for the versions that they are connected to).

I think Rev have a new XML-based docs management system that is all
integrated, probably now all sourced from same the mother database. At least
that's the way I would do it. All in all, this I think is a sound strategy,
nobody wants out-of-date pdfs around to manage, and we need absolutely
correct definitions.


-------------------------
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev


2009/11/17 <[hidden email]>

> Hi,
>
> i sent the question about a PDF version of the dictionary to support
> already some days ago.
> As soon as i get an answer, i will post it here.
>
> Regards,
>
> Matthias
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: PDF version of dictionary? (17-Nov-2009 21:39)
> From:    Marian Petrides <[hidden email]>
> To:      [hidden email]
>
> > Is there a PDF version of the Dictionary for v 4.0 available?  If so,
> where
> > can I find it?
> >
> > Also, does anyone know whether the hard copy (print edition) of the
> > Dictionary that is offered on RunRev's website is for v 4 or some earlier
> > version?  TIA
> >
> > Marian_______________________________________________
> > use-revolution mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To: [hidden email]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>
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Re: PDF version of dictionary?

Mark Swindell
Very nice online documents with room for user comments, related how-to tutorials, etc.  (After a brief look, granted.)  I hadn't seen them before.   Thanks for the pointer.


On Nov 17, 2009, at 5:45 PM, stephen barncard wrote:

> I don't see a pdf offered anywhere.
>
> Don't forget the new ONLINE version of the docs
> http://docs.runrev.com/
>
> I'm guessing that the engine and IDE change so much over time that they have
> eliminated the PDF format for the *dictionary*, as I imagine it's much
> harder to create a new PDF version for every time there is an update,  as
> opposed to the online (which can always be updated) and distributed versions
> (which are true for the versions that they are connected to).
>
> I think Rev have a new XML-based docs management system that is all
> integrated, probably now all sourced from same the mother database. At least
> that's the way I would do it. All in all, this I think is a sound strategy,
> nobody wants out-of-date pdfs around to manage, and we need absolutely
> correct definitions.
>
>
> -------------------------
> Stephen Barncard
> San Francisco
> http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev
>
>
> 2009/11/17 <[hidden email]>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> i sent the question about a PDF version of the dictionary to support
>> already some days ago.
>> As soon as i get an answer, i will post it here.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: PDF version of dictionary? (17-Nov-2009 21:39)
>> From:    Marian Petrides <[hidden email]>
>> To:      [hidden email]
>>
>>> Is there a PDF version of the Dictionary for v 4.0 available?  If so,
>> where
>>> can I find it?
>>>
>>> Also, does anyone know whether the hard copy (print edition) of the
>>> Dictionary that is offered on RunRev's website is for v 4 or some earlier
>>> version?  TIA
>>>
>>> Marian_______________________________________________
>>> use-revolution mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-revolution mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: PDF version of dictionary?

Marian Petrides, MD
In reply to this post by Stephen Barncard-4
The problem is that I can put a PDF version on my Kindle DX and carry  
it anywhere at very little cost in terms of weight. This is not true  
of the hardcopy version.  I find there are times when I need to have a  
reference book open while programming because trying to read through  
online dox just doesn't do the trick.

 >>>I don't see a pdf offered anywhere.

I didn't either but I hoped I was wrong. Looks like maybe not. :-(

On Nov 17, 2009, at 7:45 PM, stephen barncard wrote:

> I don't see a pdf offered anywhere.
>
> Don't forget the new ONLINE version of the docs
> http://docs.runrev.com/
>
> I'm guessing that the engine and IDE change so much over time that  
> they have
> eliminated the PDF format for the *dictionary*, as I imagine it's much
> harder to create a new PDF version for every time there is an  
> update,  as
> opposed to the online (which can always be updated) and distributed  
> versions
> (which are true for the versions that they are connected to).
>
> I think Rev have a new XML-based docs management system that is all
> integrated, probably now all sourced from same the mother database.  
> At least
> that's the way I would do it. All in all, this I think is a sound  
> strategy,
> nobody wants out-of-date pdfs around to manage, and we need absolutely
> correct definitions.
>
>
> -------------------------
> Stephen Barncard
> San Francisco
> http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev
>
>
> 2009/11/17 <[hidden email]>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> i sent the question about a PDF version of the dictionary to support
>> already some days ago.
>> As soon as i get an answer, i will post it here.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: PDF version of dictionary? (17-Nov-2009 21:39)
>> From:    Marian Petrides <[hidden email]>
>> To:      [hidden email]
>>
>>> Is there a PDF version of the Dictionary for v 4.0 available?  If  
>>> so,
>> where
>>> can I find it?
>>>
>>> Also, does anyone know whether the hard copy (print edition) of the
>>> Dictionary that is offered on RunRev's website is for v 4 or some  
>>> earlier
>>> version?  TIA
>>>
>>> Marian_______________________________________________
>>> use-revolution mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-revolution mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: PDF version of dictionary?

J. Landman Gay
Petrides, M.D. Marian wrote:
> The problem is that I can put a PDF version on my Kindle DX and carry it
> anywhere at very little cost in terms of weight. This is not true of the
> hardcopy version.  I find there are times when I need to have a
> reference book open while programming because trying to read through
> online dox just doesn't do the trick.


It isn't too hard to make your own:

1. Download the MetaCard Setup stack from RevOnline. Open it in Rev.
Make sure all the Dictionary options are checked. Run the setup.

2. In Rev, open the MC Dictionary stack you just installed. Click the
Home button and import all the Rev dictionary entries. The "?" button
tells you how.

3. Edit the MC Dictionary stack script and add this handler:

-- JLG: export as HTML file
on exportDict
   ask file "Name the HTML export file:"
   if it = "" then exit exportDict
   put it into tFileName
   put "<p>" into tP
   set cursor to watch
   repeat with x = 2 to the number of cds
     put the htmltext of fld "word" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
     put the htmltext of fld "type" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
     put the htmltext of fld "summary" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
     put the htmltext of fld "main" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
     put the htmltext of fld "see also" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
     put tP & "<hr>" & tP after tData
   end repeat
   put tData into url ("file:"&tFileName)
end exportDict

4. Type "exportDict" into the message box. It only takes a second to
create the HTML file.

5. Open the new HTML file in a browser or in Word or anywhere else you
can display it. Print. In the OS X print dialog, choose to create a PDF
file. On Windows, you'll need a PDF print driver to do that.

It isn't gorgeous but it's all there. You could edit the HTML (or the
export script) before printing to make it prettier.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: PDF version of dictionary?

Marian Petrides, MD
Thanks, Jacque!

On Nov 17, 2009, at 9:54 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> Petrides, M.D. Marian wrote:
>> The problem is that I can put a PDF version on my Kindle DX and  
>> carry it anywhere at very little cost in terms of weight. This is  
>> not true of the hardcopy version.  I find there are times when I  
>> need to have a reference book open while programming because trying  
>> to read through online dox just doesn't do the trick.
>
>
> It isn't too hard to make your own:
>
> 1. Download the MetaCard Setup stack from RevOnline. Open it in Rev.  
> Make sure all the Dictionary options are checked. Run the setup.
>
> 2. In Rev, open the MC Dictionary stack you just installed. Click  
> the Home button and import all the Rev dictionary entries. The "?"  
> button tells you how.
>
> 3. Edit the MC Dictionary stack script and add this handler:
>
> -- JLG: export as HTML file
> on exportDict
>  ask file "Name the HTML export file:"
>  if it = "" then exit exportDict
>  put it into tFileName
>  put "<p>" into tP
>  set cursor to watch
>  repeat with x = 2 to the number of cds
>    put the htmltext of fld "word" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
>    put the htmltext of fld "type" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
>    put the htmltext of fld "summary" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
>    put the htmltext of fld "main" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
>    put the htmltext of fld "see also" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
>    put tP & "<hr>" & tP after tData
>  end repeat
>  put tData into url ("file:"&tFileName)
> end exportDict
>
> 4. Type "exportDict" into the message box. It only takes a second to  
> create the HTML file.
>
> 5. Open the new HTML file in a browser or in Word or anywhere else  
> you can display it. Print. In the OS X print dialog, choose to  
> create a PDF file. On Windows, you'll need a PDF print driver to do  
> that.
>
> It isn't gorgeous but it's all there. You could edit the HTML (or  
> the export script) before printing to make it prettier.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: PDF version of dictionary?

sims
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
Jacque,

It really amazes me how quickly you write these things and send them  
back.

Awestruck.

Jeeez.


sims
------
On Nov 18, 2009, at 4:54 AM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> Petrides, M.D. Marian wrote:
>> The problem is that I can put a PDF version on my Kindle DX and  
>> carry it anywhere at very little cost in terms of weight. This is  
>> not true of the hardcopy version.  I find there are times when I  
>> need to have a reference book open while programming because trying  
>> to read through online dox just doesn't do the trick.
>
>
> It isn't too hard to make your own:
>
> 1. Download the MetaCard Setup stack from RevOnline. Open it in Rev.  
> Make sure all the Dictionary options are checked. Run the setup.
>
> 2. In Rev, open the MC Dictionary stack you just installed. Click  
> the Home button and import all the Rev dictionary entries. The "?"  
> button tells you how.
>
> 3. Edit the MC Dictionary stack script and add this handler:
>
> -- JLG: export as HTML file
> on exportDict
>  ask file "Name the HTML export file:"
>  if it = "" then exit exportDict
>  put it into tFileName
>  put "<p>" into tP
>  set cursor to watch
>  repeat with x = 2 to the number of cds
>    put the htmltext of fld "word" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
>    put the htmltext of fld "type" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
>    put the htmltext of fld "summary" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
>    put the htmltext of fld "main" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
>    put the htmltext of fld "see also" of cd x & tP & tP after tData
>    put tP & "<hr>" & tP after tData
>  end repeat
>  put tData into url ("file:"&tFileName)
> end exportDict
>
> 4. Type "exportDict" into the message box. It only takes a second to  
> create the HTML file.
>
> 5. Open the new HTML file in a browser or in Word or anywhere else  
> you can display it. Print. In the OS X print dialog, choose to  
> create a PDF file. On Windows, you'll need a PDF print driver to do  
> that.
>
> It isn't gorgeous but it's all there. You could edit the HTML (or  
> the export script) before printing to make it prettier.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution



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Re: PDF version of dictionary?

J. Landman Gay
Jim Sims wrote:
> Jacque,
>
> It really amazes me how quickly you write these things and send them back.
>
> Awestruck.
>
> Jeeez.

Thanks, but almost all the work was done a long time ago when I helped
with the MC Dictionary which was a group effort. All I did today was
write the little handler I posted. The original scripts took a lot
longer. ;)

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

René Micout
In reply to this post by Alejandro Tejada
Le 17 nov. 09 à 21:22, Alejandro Tejada a écrit :

> This training should be offered in teacher's native language.  
> Although, revTalk should be keep
> as an English-like programming language, without trying to  
> translate commands, functions, handlers,
> messages and tokens to another languages. (Different of Apple  
> Computer, that actually localized
> HyperTalk to many languages)

It was not a good thing (the translation of HyperCard), the  
difference between me (french) and an english or american that's  
RevTalk is not "english" language but "programming" language and it  
is an advantage that RevTalk is not in french, there is no (almost)  
confusion between RevTalk (command, functions, etc.) and my part of  
code..

> Thanks in advance for your comments!

For the rest I have no comment, I am a curious guy and I have a  
little trouble understanding people who lack curiosity...
I started with HyperCard in 1987 and gradually I made progress, it  
took time because it's not my job (and I have neither received any  
training in computers or programming), but satisfaction is so great  
when you reach the goal you had set (even if the first solution found  
is not the best).

Bons souvenirs de Paris
René


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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

Dom-2
René Micout <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I started with HyperCard in 1987 and gradually I made progress, it  
> took time because it's not my job (and I have neither received any  
> training in computers or programming), but satisfaction is so great  
> when you reach the goal you had set (even if the first solution found
> is not the best).

C'est un peu pareil pour moi :-)
je suis enfin arrivé à installer SheepShaver*, et j'ai "redécouvert" des
piles HC que j'avais écrites en ... 1989 (bon anniversaire !)

So me too :-)
I installed at least SheepShaver*, and "rediscovered" also stacks I
wrote back to ... 1989 (good anniversary!)


* c'était pas de la tarte, et ça fonctionne couci-couça
* not very easy, it works not very well


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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

Jim Bufalini-3
In reply to this post by Alejandro Tejada
Dear Alejandro,

It seems to me that your are trying to lead horses to water, who are neither
thirsty nor want to drink. ;-)

But you raise an interesting point. We talk about the world embracing
revTalk and revlets because the language is so easy. And, indeed it is. But,
when I think back to when I first found rev, the major paradigm shift was
not the language, but the concept of stacks and cards and how this equated
to a windowed GUI. And, had I not had 15 years of extensive programming
experience in another rev, called Revelation, which is PICK on the PC and
which is very, very similar to rev in that it is a scripting language with
chunks, no variable typing, compiling is at the individual script level, so
you run and program at the same time, and many, many other similarities, I
would have also probably had to go through a paradigm shift with the concept
of chunks and where to put or organize scripts.

So, assuming there are programmers who know how to program in other more
traditional programming languages, it's not the revTalk language itself that
is the major barrier. It's not a great leap to move from using equal signs
for variable assignment to using "put," or using "is" instead of a double
equal sign. And certainly not having to use line ending characters like
semicolons or bracketing blocks of code using curly brackets is freeing and
a no brainer to embrace.

The leap is in the structure and not the language. So while I think your
"course outline" rightfully starts out with stacks and cards, I think, more
than how to create, the focus in the beginning needs to be on the "theory"
of stacks and cards and how these equate to the structures they are already
familiar with.

Next, needs to be the theory of chunks and variables and then followed by
theory of scripting and where to place blocks of code and what makes this
all work or ties it all together, which is the message path. Also, before
you get into objects you need o cover the theory behind commands and
functions and how, in general, scripts are organized.

I think without making this paradigm shift first, a programmer used to top
down or OOP programming will just feel like a stranger in a strange land and
will not "hear" your lessons on buttons and fields because he will be
sitting there still trying to get his bearings. So, I think you need focus
on the lay of the land first. Once a programmer has this down pat, the rest
is easy and almost doesn't have to be taught because there is so much
documentation that can easily be looked up for syntax and details.

Also, you don't have to write all of this from scratch. Much of it is
already available and just needs to be pieced together for your particular
audience.

As I say, you raise an interesting point, because this applies to not just
your fellow teachers, but all those we expect to embrace revlets and
revTalk.

Aloha from Hawaii,

Jim Bufalini


Alejandro Tejada wrote:

> Previously, i have wrote about my fellow teachers that
> i have invited to use RevMedia in their classes.
>
> If you read those comments, you had learn that
> they expect to receive training from the source,
> from Runrev, not unlike Microsoft and Adobe
> offers with their certification programs.
>
> The idea of learning on their own, do not attract
> too many of them. I know that this is the result of
> previous experiences in trainings for other softwares.
>
> This training should be offered in teacher's
> native language. Although, revTalk should be keep
> as an English-like programming language, without
> trying to translate commands, functions, handlers,
> messages and tokens to another languages.
> (Different of Apple Computer, that actually localized
> HyperTalk to many languages)
>
> These teachers actually want that RevMedia, have an
> interface more similar to Office programs like Word or
> PowerPoint. The idea of scripting visual effects for
> transitions from a card to another, or hiding or showing
> a control seems so alien to them, that i suspect that
> this useful feature (for their specific kind of work), would
> be underutilized or unused at all.
>
> Now, i am looking for comments about this idea:
>
> To make easier for Teachers (or users), to know in which level
> of expertise they stand, divide clearly the learning experience
> in different levels, just like HyperCard do.
>
> The following paragraph was copied from this page:
> http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.03/03.10/HyperCardProgrammi
> ng/index.html
>
> There are 5 user levels within Hypercard. The top most level,
> and easiest to use, is Browsing. This allows the user to navigate
> through Stacks and look at information but not to add or modify it.
>
> (My comment:
> Given that Rev is multiplatform, i should add another
> ability to this level that should be carried to others levels:
> The ability of making clear and understable reports of failures or
> malfunction of stacks to their authors, using screenshots and
> written reports. This is really important and should be so easy, that
> do not become a burden.)
>
> The next two levels Typing and Painting allow the user to add or modify
> written and graphic information. The last two levels are Authoring
> and Scripting.
>
> (My comment:
> The Authoring level requires very good tutorials about
> each part of Rev interface, because, as i wrote before, many Teachers
> expect to take advantage of their experience using Office Software,
> while
> they learn to use Rev. In fact, editing text in Rev seems (to many of
> them)
> really "primitive", because they compare this task with their
> counterpart
> in other programs. Rev needs to add menu items for common text
> transformation functions like Uppercase or Lowercase, Sentence Case,
> bulleted list, etc. or an accessible plug-in method to add them to a
> palette.
>
> My approach to tackle this fear to authoring have been teaching them
> first:
> 1) how to create a stack
> 2) how to create cards (i told them that these are pages...)
> 3) how to navigate between cards (and their visual effect transitions)
> 4) how to change stack and cards properties (size, background colors,
> etc. This part serves to teach them about inheritance of properties.)
> 5) how to create fields, buttons, image canvas (yes, if you could paint
> on them is an image canvas), vector graphics, etc.
> 6) Changing key attributes of these objects (Some key attributes, not
> all)
> 6) how to import text, images and graphics.
> 7) how to hyperlink (text hyper linking should be a lot easier for
> novices)
> 8) how to show and hide controls (Now they learn that all these objects
> are called controls inside RevMedia)
> 9) how to group controls and show them in different cards
> 10) Optimizing and reducing the Size of stack content.
>
> Final Project: Choose one of the Gutenberg Project ebooks and
> convert many of their chapters in a stack that shows concepts
> like: multiple cards, hyperlinks, text formatting, optimal use of
> images,
> visual effects transitions, groups placed in multiple cards, use of
> colors, textures and blends.
>
> This is my what i want to teach them to learn authoring in
> RevMedia. Did i miss some important points (that they should
> learn) in previous description?
>
> About reaching the Scripting Level, i could tell you the reactions that
> i have observed when i show them five binders of printed documentation
> from Rev dictionaries and other materials. (Notice that i have not
> printed
> all documentation available.)
>
> My favorite remark: "Do you actually expect that i learn all this to
> use
> this program?"
>
> Obviously the answer is no, but i bet that this is the reaction of many
> when they learn about the extension of the revTalk language.
>
> I believe that they should learn to comment and debug other
> people's code, while they start learning to write their own handlers.
>
> By any chance, Have you seen the expression of fear when a newbie
> choose "Quit" from the script editor and the whole program closes?
> (He was expecting to "Quit" only the task that he was doing, that is,
> quit scripting a control in the stack)
>
> I believe that we could make a stack that "guides" newbies in this task
> of commenting other people code.
>
> I would like to read comments on the Authoring part, because
> this is the topic of the tutorials i am working now.
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments!
>
> Alejandro
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Looking-for-a-
> defined-path-to-learn-Rev-for-new-users-tp623008p623008.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
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> subscription preferences:
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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

René Micout
In reply to this post by Dom-2
Hello !
I read that the implementation of SheepSaver was tricky...
What about that ?
René

Bonjour,
J'ai lu que la mise en œuvre de SheepSaver était délicate...
Qu'en est-il exactement ?
René


Le 19 nov. 09 à 14:04, Dom a écrit :
> I installed at least SheepShaver*
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[Fr][En]Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

Dom-2
René Micout <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello !
> I read that the implementation of SheepSaver was tricky...
> What about that ?
> René
>
> Bonjour,
> J'ai lu que la mise en œuvre de SheepSaver était délicate...
> Qu'en est-il exactement ?

bon je mets la balise bilingue
"you may encounter french beyond this limit" ;-))

ce n'est pas le sauveur de moutons, mais le raseur de moutons ;-)
it doesn't Save Sheep, but Shaves them ;-)

trève de plaisanterie
enough kidding

oui, j'ai eu du mal à installer SheepShaver -- en fait ça bloquait à
chaque fois sur "Mac OS ROM" qui n'était pas reconnue comme une ROM
valide (subtil, il faut un vrai disque "Mac OS" et pas seulement le CD
d'installation, qui ne marche qu'avec la machine qui est vendue avec*)

installing SheepShaver was rather daunting
Mac OS ROM was not recognized
you must have a "real" Mac OS disc, not a simple "install" disc*

et puis, le version de SheepShaver n'était pas la bonne non plus, au
départ SheepShaver est "prévu" pour les machines Intel -- et j'ai un
PowerPC G5 !

the current SheepShaver version was not good for PPC Macs

cerise sur le gâteau, SheepShaver marchait bien avec Tiger, mais avait
des vapeurs avec Leopard : tout pour plaire, quoi !

SheepShaver had some problems with Leopard

et, subitement, l'autre jour, à mon énième tentative, je charge une
version de SheepShaver qui est "garantie" marcher sur PPC, et je suis
pas à pas la doc, trouvée sur le même site :

<http://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/sheepshaver_mac_os_x_setup>

and suddenly that worked with a new version of SheepShaver!

j'installe comme décrit le System avec un CD Apple (Mac OS 8.6)... et ça
marche !!

j'ai pu lancer HyperCard, et d'autres applis "legacy" -- pour
m'apercevoir que des fichiers ne sont pas reconnus (erreur -51), et que
'installation est instable ;->

I launched HyperCard, and other legacy apps -- but a number of files are
not recognized (-51 error), and the System is instable

* en fait ce n'est pas absolu, mais je simplifie
not absolutely

Voilà [bilingue] ;-)


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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

Francis Nugent Dixon
In reply to this post by Alejandro Tejada
Hi from Paris,

I think Jim has it all sown up.

From: "Jim Bufalini" <[hidden email]>

> So, I think you need focus
> on the lay of the land first.

I went through many languages from 1401 Autocoder,
through Fortran, through Cobol, through 360 Assembler,
and then through PL/1. I was young and capable of
evolving.

Hypercard (at the age of 45) was a shock, and Revolution
at 60, was a bigger shock. But I took the blows, and
came out winning (and not whining !!)

The developments of Revolution (revlets, revtalk,
On-Rev, shake the traditional programmer, but you
have to go with the flow, or sink into oblivion.

Then the question arises - Are there any traditional
programmers left ? - It MAY be a dying breed.

Best Regards

-Francis

"Nothing should ever be done for the first time"


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Re: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

Stephen Barncard-4
If one has ever had to work with punched cards (and I have not) genuinely
deserves the title "hard core". That stuff was so boring in the 60s that it
drove me away from the field.

How did anything get done?
-------------------------
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev


2009/11/19 Francis Nugent Dixon <[hidden email]>

> Hi from Paris,
>
> I think Jim has it all sown up.
>
> From: "Jim Bufalini" <[hidden email]>
>
>
>  So, I think you need focus
>> on the lay of the land first.
>>
>
> I went through many languages from 1401 Autocoder,
> through Fortran, through Cobol, through 360 Assembler,
> and then through PL/1. I was young and capable of
> evolving.
>
> Hypercard (at the age of 45) was a shock, and Revolution
> at 60, was a bigger shock. But I took the blows, and
> came out winning (and not whining !!)
>
> The developments of Revolution (revlets, revtalk,
> On-Rev, shake the traditional programmer, but you
> have to go with the flow, or sink into oblivion.
>
> Then the question arises - Are there any traditional
> programmers left ? - It MAY be a dying breed.
>
> Best Regards
>
> -Francis
>
> "Nothing should ever be done for the first time"
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>
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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

Jim Bufalini-3
Hi Stephan and Francis,

> If one has ever had to work with punched cards (and I have not)
> genuinely
> deserves the title "hard core". That stuff was so boring in the 60s
> that it
> drove me away from the field.

I did as a teenager in high school on a summer job (circa 1968). ;-) I had actually forgotten this until just now.

> How did anything get done?

Veeerrryyy slowly as you kept watching the clock for it to hit 5:00 pm. ;-)

> -------------------------
> Stephen Barncard
> San Francisco
> http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev
>
>
> 2009/11/19 Francis Nugent Dixon <[hidden email]>
>
> > Hi from Paris,
> >

<snip>

> > and came out winning (and not whining !!)

Clever. I like this. I am going to steal it! ;-)

> > Then the question arises - Are there any traditional
> > programmers left ? - It MAY be a dying breed.

Almost any language that is not of the xtalk variety, such as C++, .net, Visual Basic, etc. is "traditional" compared to revTalk and there are more of these types of programmers than ever before.

Aloha from Hawaii,

Jim Bufalini

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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

Judy Perry
In reply to this post by Jim Bufalini-3

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Jim Bufalini wrote:
> It seems to me that your are trying to lead horses to water, who are neither
> thirsty nor want to drink. ;-)

But the staggering amount of public funds that have been dumped into
computers in the classroom requires that they really ought to either get
thirsty really quickly or be force-fed the water.

Here's a sad, sobering read:

http://www.hull.ac.uk/php/edskas/Cuban%20article%20-%20oversold.pdf

Yes, it was written some time ago, but I've not really seen any studies
that indicate that things have changed for the better.  In my children's 4
years in the public school system, there were a number of computers
present in each classroom.  Mostly they never got used.  Or, if they did
get used, it was for something completely stupid, like reading a story
online.  My niece and nephew, in the third grade, were required to use
PowerPoint to present their vocabulary and spelling words.  Yet another
stupid use of computers in education.  I've seen school district
technology implementation plans for using computers to teach math -- how?
Have the students type up word problems and type up the answers.  DUMB
DUMB DUMB!

Or, in the case of I believe it may have been LA Unified, they
forced the kids to use math education software that was SO BAD that
hundreds of math educators and mathematicians signed an online petition
saying that it was the worst educational software they'd ever seen.  So,
why was the school using it?  It had been somebody's pet project and the
district was threatened with the loss of NSF funds if they didn't use the
software, which the NSF had underwritten.

My children's first grade teacher, when I asked her about the computers
(she's the one who had them reading stories online), and I made a joke
about PowerPoint, her response was "gee, I wish I knew how to do that in
class!"  I wanted to weep.  PowerPoint.  For 6 year olds.  When there was
so much more that was possible to do with computers in education MORE THAN
TWENTY YEARS AGO.

> But you raise an interesting point. We talk about the world embracing
> revTalk and revlets because the language is so easy. And, indeed it is. But,
> when I think back to when I first found rev, the major paradigm shift was
> not the language, but the concept of stacks and cards and how this equated
> to a windowed GUI. And, had I not had 15 years of extensive programming
> experience in another rev, called Revelation, which is PICK on the PC and
> which is very, very similar to rev in that it is a scripting language with
> chunks, no variable typing, compiling is at the individual script level, so
> you run and program at the same time, and many, many other similarities, I
> would have also probably had to go through a paradigm shift with the concept
> of chunks and where to put or organize scripts.

--And, of course, this is exactly why it is perhaps a better audience for
using this particular program, because cards and stacks of cards are
things they already understand from the real world whereas typed data and
where to put your semi-colons and how to indent your curlicue brackets are
not.  They have no pre-existing models by which to be confounded.

> The leap is in the structure and not the language. So while I think your
> "course outline" rightfully starts out with stacks and cards, I think, more
> than how to create, the focus in the beginning needs to be on the "theory"
> of stacks and cards and how these equate to the structures they are already
> familiar with.

--That would be none.  And none is a good thing ;-)

> Next, needs to be the theory of chunks and variables and then followed by
> theory of scripting and where to place blocks of code and what makes this
> all work or ties it all together, which is the message path. Also, before
> you get into objects you need o cover the theory behind commands and
> functions and how, in general, scripts are organized.

--At this point, they've either run screaming to the hills to fire up
PowerPoint or their eyes are glazed over or they're asleep.  Guaranteed.
They need short, sweet project-based learning that allows them to
immediately begin using whatever little they've learned to date.

> I think without making this paradigm shift first, a programmer used to top
> down or OOP programming will just feel like a stranger in a strange land and
> will not "hear" your lessons on buttons and fields because he will be
> sitting there still trying to get his bearings. So, I think you need focus
> on the lay of the land first. Once a programmer has this down pat, the rest
> is easy and almost doesn't have to be taught because there is so much
> documentation that can easily be looked up for syntax and details.

--Here's the problem:  Teachers do not want to be turned into programmers.
Who cares if they do in 15 lines what you'd do in 3?  Admire your
elegantly-crafted 3 lines, certainly.  Laugh at my 20, certainly (well,
okay, laugh discretely).  But, at the end of the day, I'm pleased that I
*can* make little things that help my children.  They don't care how many
lines it took ;-)  And there's no reason why kids in the classroom should
care either, as long as it works and meets some need.

Judy
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RE: Looking for a defined path to learn Rev (for new users)

Jim Bufalini-3
Hi Judy,

Your points are all well taken and true - for kids. But if you read
Alejandro's original post, you will see that he is designing a course
outline for his fellow teachers who already program in more traditional
language(s), which one or ones I don't know, and he is wanting to "convert"
them over to rev. This is the issue I was addressing and why I talked about
the importance of addressing the paradigm shift first.

Aloha from Hawaii,

Jim Bufalini



>
> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Jim Bufalini wrote:
> > It seems to me that your are trying to lead horses to water, who are
> neither
> > thirsty nor want to drink. ;-)
>
> But the staggering amount of public funds that have been dumped into
> computers in the classroom requires that they really ought to either
> get
> thirsty really quickly or be force-fed the water.
>
> Here's a sad, sobering read:
>
> http://www.hull.ac.uk/php/edskas/Cuban%20article%20-%20oversold.pdf
>
> Yes, it was written some time ago, but I've not really seen any studies
> that indicate that things have changed for the better.  In my
> children's 4
> years in the public school system, there were a number of computers
> present in each classroom.  Mostly they never got used.  Or, if they
> did
> get used, it was for something completely stupid, like reading a story
> online.  My niece and nephew, in the third grade, were required to use
> PowerPoint to present their vocabulary and spelling words.  Yet another
> stupid use of computers in education.  I've seen school district
> technology implementation plans for using computers to teach math --
> how?
> Have the students type up word problems and type up the answers.  DUMB
> DUMB DUMB!
>
> Or, in the case of I believe it may have been LA Unified, they
> forced the kids to use math education software that was SO BAD that
> hundreds of math educators and mathematicians signed an online petition
> saying that it was the worst educational software they'd ever seen.
> So,
> why was the school using it?  It had been somebody's pet project and
> the
> district was threatened with the loss of NSF funds if they didn't use
> the
> software, which the NSF had underwritten.
>
> My children's first grade teacher, when I asked her about the computers
> (she's the one who had them reading stories online), and I made a joke
> about PowerPoint, her response was "gee, I wish I knew how to do that
> in
> class!"  I wanted to weep.  PowerPoint.  For 6 year olds.  When there
> was
> so much more that was possible to do with computers in education MORE
> THAN
> TWENTY YEARS AGO.
>
> > But you raise an interesting point. We talk about the world embracing
> > revTalk and revlets because the language is so easy. And, indeed it
> is. But,
> > when I think back to when I first found rev, the major paradigm shift
> was
> > not the language, but the concept of stacks and cards and how this
> equated
> > to a windowed GUI. And, had I not had 15 years of extensive
> programming
> > experience in another rev, called Revelation, which is PICK on the PC
> and
> > which is very, very similar to rev in that it is a scripting language
> with
> > chunks, no variable typing, compiling is at the individual script
> level, so
> > you run and program at the same time, and many, many other
> similarities, I
> > would have also probably had to go through a paradigm shift with the
> concept
> > of chunks and where to put or organize scripts.
>
> --And, of course, this is exactly why it is perhaps a better audience
> for
> using this particular program, because cards and stacks of cards are
> things they already understand from the real world whereas typed data
> and
> where to put your semi-colons and how to indent your curlicue brackets
> are
> not.  They have no pre-existing models by which to be confounded.
>
> > The leap is in the structure and not the language. So while I think
> your
> > "course outline" rightfully starts out with stacks and cards, I
> think, more
> > than how to create, the focus in the beginning needs to be on the
> "theory"
> > of stacks and cards and how these equate to the structures they are
> already
> > familiar with.
>
> --That would be none.  And none is a good thing ;-)
>
> > Next, needs to be the theory of chunks and variables and then
> followed by
> > theory of scripting and where to place blocks of code and what makes
> this
> > all work or ties it all together, which is the message path. Also,
> before
> > you get into objects you need o cover the theory behind commands and
> > functions and how, in general, scripts are organized.
>
> --At this point, they've either run screaming to the hills to fire up
> PowerPoint or their eyes are glazed over or they're asleep.
> Guaranteed.
> They need short, sweet project-based learning that allows them to
> immediately begin using whatever little they've learned to date.
>
> > I think without making this paradigm shift first, a programmer used
> to top
> > down or OOP programming will just feel like a stranger in a strange
> land and
> > will not "hear" your lessons on buttons and fields because he will be
> > sitting there still trying to get his bearings. So, I think you need
> focus
> > on the lay of the land first. Once a programmer has this down pat,
> the rest
> > is easy and almost doesn't have to be taught because there is so much
> > documentation that can easily be looked up for syntax and details.
>
> --Here's the problem:  Teachers do not want to be turned into
> programmers.
> Who cares if they do in 15 lines what you'd do in 3?  Admire your
> elegantly-crafted 3 lines, certainly.  Laugh at my 20, certainly (well,
> okay, laugh discretely).  But, at the end of the day, I'm pleased that
> I
> *can* make little things that help my children.  They don't care how
> many
> lines it took ;-)  And there's no reason why kids in the classroom
> should
> care either, as long as it works and meets some need.
>
> Judy
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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