New Indy License Pricing

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New Indy License Pricing

Peter Haworth
I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the
increase in Indy license pricing.

From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have
all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode.

Comments?

Pete
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Dirk prive
All I can say is to send feedback to Kevin.
I already did and they are listening.
Dirk cleenwerck.
On Jul 1, 2015 23:15, "Peter Haworth" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the
> increase in Indy license pricing.
>
> From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have
> all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode.
>
> Comments?
>
> Pete
> _______________________________________________
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> subscription preferences:
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

mwieder
In reply to this post by Peter Haworth
Peter Haworth <pete@...> writes:

>
> I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the
> increase in Indy license pricing.
>
> From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have
> all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode.
>
> Comments?

Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin:
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24729&start=15

--
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Mike Bonner
And boom goes the forum.

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Mark Wieder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Peter Haworth <pete@...> writes:
>
> >
> > I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the
> > increase in Indy license pricing.
> >
> > From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have
> > all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode.
> >
> > Comments?
>
> Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin:
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24729&start=15
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  [hidden email]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Stephen Barncard-4
On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 4:24 PM, Mike Bonner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And boom goes the forum.
>

I thought it was my provider.  It appears we are still in the networking
middle ages.

--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA - Deeds Not Words
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Dave Kilroy
In reply to this post by Mike Bonner
Not just the forum, all of livecode.com

So far my on-rev sites are ok <crosses fingers> 

Anyone able to tell if the problem is a ddos or one of their servers falling over?

Mike Bonner wrote
And boom goes the forum.
"The first 90% of the task takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time."
Peter M. Brigham
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Jerry Jensen
Diesel is serving web pages. On-rev email is working (IMAP, I don’t use SMTP).
livecode.com no . downloads.livecode.com no . on-rev.com no (!)(I guess it isn’t really in the on-rev hosting)

> On Jul 1, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Dave Kilroy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not just the forum, all of livecode.com
>
> So far my on-rev sites are ok <crosses fingers>
>
> Anyone able to tell if the problem is a ddos or one of their servers falling
> over?
>
>
> Mike Bonner wrote
>> And boom goes the forum.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> "The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
> --
> View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/New-Indy-License-Pricing-tp4693525p4693537.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

mwieder
In reply to this post by Mike Bonner
On 07/01/2015 04:24 PM, Mike Bonner wrote:
> And boom goes the forum.

Well, let's see... from memory...

Kevin said something about how if they had done this a while back they
could have avoided the service errors that affected "a small number of
users".

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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Bob Sneidar-2
In reply to this post by mwieder
Pardon my being late to the party, but I went to the web page and read up, but I still do not know what the “Indy” version is. I don’t want to miss the pricing deadline, but I also don’t want to subscribe to something then find out it is less than I wanted.

Bob S


> On Jul 1, 2015, at 15:50 , Mark Wieder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Peter Haworth <pete@...> writes:
>
>>
>> I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the
>> increase in Indy license pricing.
>>
>> From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have
>> all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode.
>>
>> Comments?
>
> Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin:
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24729&start=15
>
> --
> Mark Wieder
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Wprothero
Bob,
I subscribed to the Indy license with the understanding that it is the same as a commercial license, but for only a single developer.

Hope I'm right.
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Jul 21, 2015, at 7:29 AM, Bob Sneidar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Pardon my being late to the party, but I went to the web page and read up, but I still do not know what the “Indy” version is. I don’t want to miss the pricing deadline, but I also don’t want to subscribe to something then find out it is less than I wanted.
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Jul 1, 2015, at 15:50 , Mark Wieder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Peter Haworth <pete@...> writes:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the
>>> increase in Indy license pricing.
>>>
>>> From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have
>>> all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode.
>>>
>>> Comments?
>>
>> Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin:
>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24729&start=15
>>
>> --
>> Mark Wieder
>> [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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>
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Chris Sheffield-5
There are two other limitations to be aware of, if I understand the terms correctly:  1) Your company/organization cannot have more than 5 employees total, and 2) cannot make more than $500,000 per year.

> On Jul 21, 2015, at 10:06 AM, Earthednet-wp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Bob,
> I subscribed to the Indy license with the understanding that it is the same as a commercial license, but for only a single developer.
>
> Hope I'm right.
> Bill
>
> William Prothero
> http://es.earthednet.org
>
>> On Jul 21, 2015, at 7:29 AM, Bob Sneidar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Pardon my being late to the party, but I went to the web page and read up, but I still do not know what the “Indy” version is. I don’t want to miss the pricing deadline, but I also don’t want to subscribe to something then find out it is less than I wanted.
>>
>> Bob S
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 1, 2015, at 15:50 , Mark Wieder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Peter Haworth <pete@...> writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding the
>>>> increase in Indy license pricing.
>>>>
>>>> From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer have
>>>> all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode.
>>>>
>>>> Comments?
>>>
>>> Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin:
>>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24729&start=15
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mark Wieder
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Andrew Kluthe-2
Just read through some of the forum threads.

Price Increase? No big deal.
Commercial vs Open Source Feature Parity? Could also be no big deal if done
with some good intentions.
Only Subscription licensing? No big deal, helps keep costs down for us to
stay bleeding edge and helps stabilize the income runrev can count on.

But all three of these together? It's kind of obvious why people are
complaining/suspicious of the long term intentions here.

The issue is trust. In trusting runrev to know how to walk the fine line
with the commercial features/licensing, not any of the issues individually.
Not everyone is just going to take them for their word with this stuff
anymore.

Without that trust all of these things look very suspicious.

"We're gonna do all these things to get to what we promised, but after that
..." after that, what?

You take livecode open source to get funding to redesign it, release the
completed redesign as open source and after some time completely focus
future development efforts on commercial? Is that the after? It seems like
that's what the mother ship was saying on those threads.

"No, that's not what we want to do. We are committed to being Open Source."

Until you hit another funding wall and then those wants becomes have to's?

Sure, it's a slippery slope fallacy, but the ground we've just traveled on
from April 2013 didn't feel real solid.






On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 11:16 AM Chris Sheffield <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> There are two other limitations to be aware of, if I understand the terms
> correctly:  1) Your company/organization cannot have more than 5 employees
> total, and 2) cannot make more than $500,000 per year.
>
> > On Jul 21, 2015, at 10:06 AM, Earthednet-wp <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Bob,
> > I subscribed to the Indy license with the understanding that it is the
> same as a commercial license, but for only a single developer.
> >
> > Hope I'm right.
> > Bill
> >
> > William Prothero
> > http://es.earthednet.org
> >
> >> On Jul 21, 2015, at 7:29 AM, Bob Sneidar <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Pardon my being late to the party, but I went to the web page and read
> up, but I still do not know what the “Indy” version is. I don’t want to
> miss the pricing deadline, but I also don’t want to subscribe to something
> then find out it is less than I wanted.
> >>
> >> Bob S
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jul 1, 2015, at 15:50 , Mark Wieder <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Peter Haworth <pete@...> writes:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm assuming some folks out there got the same email as me regarding
> the
> >>>> increase in Indy license pricing.
> >>>>
> >>>> From that email, it seems that the Community Edition will no longer
> have
> >>>> all the same features as the fee-based versions of Livecode.
> >>>>
> >>>> Comments?
> >>>
> >>> Been dealt with very nicely by Kevin:
> >>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24729&start=15
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Mark Wieder
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> use-livecode mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

J. Landman Gay
On 7/21/2015 12:22 PM, Andrew Kluthe wrote:
> "No, that's not what we want to do. We are committed to being Open Source."
>
> Until you hit another funding wall and then those wants becomes have to's?

I'm curious how one would fund development on a massive project like LC
when almost everyone is using the free version. So far, most of the
suggestions I've seen posted have already been tried or are too silly to
implement.

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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Andrew Kluthe-2
Exactly my point, I don't think there is an easy answer here besides what
runrev is wanting to do. They said it themselves, they have to.

 I think the reaction is a result of mistrust/fear and not actual issues
with what's being proposed. Are you going to quiet all alarmists and settle
every single persons anxiety regarding this? No, but it seems like there
has been more fear and anxiety about the motherships' decisions lately than
there ought to be. How do we go about preventing that in the future? More
transparency (they've been trying)? Being very specific and careful (maybe
even engage the community directly) with what gets rolled into commercial
as a paid-only feature?

For instance: I would expect stuff like a customizable datagrid widget
tuned for performance even on mobile (and mobile deployment itself) not to
be a paid only feature. But I could certainly see a pre-configured inbox
style datagrid or a timeline control being a specialized commercial widget
that could be bought and used in the commercial version helping to generate
some money.

I can see paid widgets being the way to handle this Commercial vs Community
Feature parity issue.

I hope its along these lines and not "You can't deploy to Rasp pi, android
or IOS unless you are on commercial license".

Commercial should provide advantages but community should not provide
intentional dis-advantages.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 2:17 PM J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 7/21/2015 12:22 PM, Andrew Kluthe wrote:
> > "No, that's not what we want to do. We are committed to being Open
> Source."
> >
> > Until you hit another funding wall and then those wants becomes have
> to's?
>
> I'm curious how one would fund development on a massive project like LC
> when almost everyone is using the free version. So far, most of the
> suggestions I've seen posted have already been tried or are too silly to
> implement.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Matthias Rebbe | M-R-D


>
>
> I hope its along these lines and not "You can't deploy to Rasp pi, android
Just a little note:
Raspberry Pi deployment is only supported by  the community version.

Matthias

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Re: New Indy License Pricing

David Bovill-3
In reply to this post by Chris Sheffield-5
I want to send gzip encoded data back from the LiveCode server I'm working
on. According to the docs: compress function uses the slob compression
library.

And according to Wikipedia


> The "Content-Encoding"/"Accept-Encoding" and "Transfer-Encoding"/"TE"
> headers in HTTP <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP>/1.1 allow clients
> to optionally receive compressed HTTP
> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_compression> responses and (less
> commonly) to send compressed requests. The specification for HTTP/1.1 (RFC
> 2616 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616>) specifies three compression
> methods: "gzip" (RFC 1952 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1952>; the
> content wrapped in a gzip stream), "deflate" (RFC 1950
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950>; the content wrapped in a
> zlib-formatted stream), and "compress" (explained in RFC 2616
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616> section 3.5 as "*The encoding
> format produced by the common UNIX file compression program compress. This
> format is an adaptive Lempel-Ziv-Welch coding (LZW).*"). Many client
> libraries, browsers, and server platforms (including Apache
> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server> and Microsoft IIS
> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_IIS>) support gzip. Many
> agents also support deflate, although several important players incorrectly
> implement deflate support using the format specified by RFC 1951
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1951> instead of the correct format
> specified by RFC 1950 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950> (which
> encapsulates RFC 1951 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1951>). Notably,
> Internet Explorer versions 6, 7, and 8 report deflate support but do not
> actually accept RFC 1950 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950> format,
> making actual use of deflate highly unusual. Many clients accept both RFC
> 1951 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1951> and RFC 1950
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950>-formatted data for the "deflate"
> compressed method, but a server has no way to detect whether a client will
> correctly handle RFC 1950 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1950> format.
>

That bodes well. Anyone know if this works with most browsers?
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

JB
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
If like you say most people are using the free version
it makes me wonder what the income difference is
using a subscription plan compered to purchasing it.

I hope they are making money because it is a good
programming language.

John Balgenorth


On Jul 21, 2015, at 12:16 PM, J. Landman Gay <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/21/2015 12:22 PM, Andrew Kluthe wrote:
>> "No, that's not what we want to do. We are committed to being Open Source."
>>
>> Until you hit another funding wall and then those wants becomes have to's?
>
> I'm curious how one would fund development on a massive project like LC when almost everyone is using the free version. So far, most of the suggestions I've seen posted have already been tried or are too silly to implement.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Andrew Kluthe-2
Andrew Kluthe wrote:

 > Price Increase? No big deal.

Even less so when we consider that the "new" price was the price before
last year's experiment with lower prices.  In fact, it's only $4 more
than I used to pay for annual renewals with MetaCard back in '98, after
paying an initial licensing fee of $995.

Some talk about this like it's tennis shoes or other commodities, "Just
lower the price to sell more!"

The total addressable market for software developer tools is a slender
fraction of what most consumer apps can aim for.  Look at the bell curve
and remember that a person needs an IQ of at least 115 just to begin to
find programming at all interesting.  Race-to-the-bottom pricing just
doesn't work for such a highly specialized product that can only appeal
to a relatively slender slice of the gene pool.  Everyone needs shoes,
but few have any interest at all in programming.


 > Commercial vs Open Source Feature Parity? Could also be no big deal
 > if done with some good intentions.

So far there's been only feature parity, and the only thing Kevin
discussed in his email is a single Widget add-on for exotic camera
features, which takes nothing away from any of the other front- or
back-facing camera commands we have on mobile now, or any of the webcam
and other image input support on the desktop.

And while I can appreciate Kevin's desire to come up with supplemental
revenue streams, I suspect he'll find that add-on components for a
developer tool isn't exactly easy money, so I don't expect this to be a
major trend.


 > Only Subscription licensing? No big deal, helps keep costs down for
 > us to stay bleeding edge and helps stabilize the income runrev can
 > count on.

And not at all new.  The switch to subscriptions went into effect more
than two years ago when the Community Edition premiered.


 > But all three of these together? It's kind of obvious why people are
 > complaining/suspicious of the long term intentions here.

Given that two of those three aren't new and the third (a proprietary
add-on) doesn't even exist yet, it's less clear to me.

Or maybe it's no more mystifying than anything else we see in any
reasonably sizable Internet community.  As a population grows to reflect
larger demographics, we can expect a portion of any group to disagree
with changes within that group.  And given human nature, those who are
satisfied with the change will be happily enjoying it rather than
writing about it, giving disproportionate voice to a relatively small
subset of the group.

We see this with nearly every aspect of collective human activity, from
politics to products.

A casual observer might count dissenting posts, but if we look at
dissenting people the number is much smaller.  And if we look at the
audience size as a whole and compare the number of dissenting people to
that, the proportionality becomes even clearer.

This isn't to suggest that contrary views shouldn't be discussed.
Sometimes great ideas come from vigorous debate.

But the repetition is sometimes a bit much, and in any social situation
it's always useful to avoid presumptions of bad intentions.


 > The issue is trust. In trusting runrev to know how to walk the fine
 > line with the commercial features/licensing, not any of the issues
 > individually.
 > Not everyone is just going to take them for their word with this stuff
 > anymore.

Why not?

You noted that none of those issues is a big deal at all, so what
exactly has changed?

When we believe we may have reasons to question someone's future
behaviors, more informative than conjecture would be to review past
performance.

We can imagine all sorts of stuff.  I can dream up a world in which
Kevin graduated from the Larry Ellison School of Annoying Open Source
Communities, laughing at us all under his top hat in between chomps on
his cigar as he removes his monacle to say, "Ha!  I fooled you all!"
There's no limit to the human imagination.

Or we could just look at actual observable performance.

Sure, the company has their share of missteps, and arguably some details
of the wording of that email are among them.

But what has Kevin or anyone else there ever done to exhibit anything
less than earnestness in delivering on their stated objectives?

Sure, they don't always get everything right. And like the other 84% of
projects Steven McConnell reviewed from ACM literature in writing his
books, they've discovered they're not the first company that can make
extremely ambitious goals involving complete rewrites across seven
platforms and do it all on their original estimated schedule.

Lots of areas to improve, in their company, and mine, and perhaps those
of some of the others here.

But earnestness and integrity?  I've seen nothing that would make me
question that.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Pierre Sahores-2
In reply to this post by JB
> Le 21 juil. 2015 à 23:12, JB <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> I hope they are making money because it is a good
> programming language.

For sure ! It’s both an amazing XTalk and, less well known, one of the best and most mature functional programming language ever published...
--
Pierre Sahores
mobile : 06 03 95 77 70
www.sahores-conseil.com



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Re: New Indy License Pricing

Pierre Sahores-2
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
Le 21 juil. 2015 à 23:35, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> And given human nature, those who are satisfied with the change will be happily enjoying it rather than writing about it, giving disproportionate voice to a relatively small subset of the group.

;D
--
Pierre Sahores
mobile : 06 03 95 77 70
www.sahores-conseil.com


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