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This goes along with my saying about technology:
Technology is the process whereby we exchange the problems we are capable of handling, for those we are not.
Bob
On Oct 24, 2011, at 7:09 AM, Scott Rossi wrote:
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On Oct 24, 2011, at 12:23 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> This goes along with my saying about technology:
>
> Technology is the process whereby we exchange the problems we are capable of handling, for those we are not.
"To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer."
-- Peter
Peter M. Brigham
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Hi Scott,
Really interesting article! Many thanks for posting this.
Some years ago, I said aloud: "All these same results could be achieved in
the classroom, without using computers..." while taking one course about
the use of computers in the classroom. Of course, everybody turn around
to look at me, then they smiled and continued doing their task at hand.
In the place where I live, computers labs are installed in schools where
there are no permanent electricity, functional bathrooms, the buildings
are crumbling and the students had to sit down on the floor because
there is no money to fix their chairs or buy new ones...
Sadly enough, after the first week, most computer labs are stolen of their
assets, to never return to their initial state. After that, everything goes
predictably down.
As you would understand, I am not popular among the groups that
benefits grossly of selling hardware equipment for school computer labs
or sell training for teachers or sell software that never works or is
unused to their full potential.
Even so, i feel optimist, because this state of dispair and abandon would
not last forever. Yes, I choose to be optimist.
In this article, you could read this paragraph:
"Absent clear evidence, the debate comes down to subjectivity,
parental choice and a difference of opinion over a single world: engagement.
Advocates for equipping schools with technology say computers
can hold students’ attention and, in fact, that young people who
have been weaned on electronic devices will not tune in without them."
This is the same conclusion that I arrive some weeks ago, and write
about them in this message:
http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2011-October/163394.html"Today, with so many electronic gadgets created specifically
to entertain, it should be shocking for the youngest students
to learn that these could be used for learning or "work"...
After reading about the "Gamification" of learning in revUP,
I read again all the articles written by Mark Prensky about
games and learning and I reached a different conclusion,
starting from the same data.
Right now, I borrowed one of the Pokemon's Guide to their
games and I am taking notes about their strategies and
methods to "engage" (this is the keyword: "engage") their
players to complete their games (and buy more, when available)"
Well, some could say that I am a dreamer, but now I am sure
that I am not the only one... :-D
Al
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We have someone at work here that has been diagnosed as having this disorder. Of special note is the abnormalities in social interaction, and limited empathy with their peers. This particular person doesn't seem to get along with anyone, nor does he appear to care to. He has a habit of constantly reporting what he deems grievous issues of misconduct to the boss, but the issues are typically trivial. He is almost incapable of working with other people, as he must do things his way or he gets very agitated.
Wait, I have just described 70% of the people I work with. Wait again, I have just described me!
Bob
On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Alejandro Tejada wrote:
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Dear Mr. Sneidar,
I emailed you once in the hopes of clearing my deceased husband's
name from the LiveCode listing, however I was not successful and I
have continued to receive the email. I have categorized it as junk
( I don't mean to be rude or unkind). I usually delete all of the
livecode without any regard. I have no idea why I read this about
the person with Asperger Syndrome, but as a teacher with a great deal
of experience dealing with Autistic children, I woul like to plead
patience and understanding for these folks. Neurologically, the
Asperger person is quite bright and struggles every day to deal with
a strange, frustrating world.
Sincerely,
Annette DeJulio
On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> We have someone at work here that has been diagnosed as having this
> disorder. Of special note is the abnormalities in social
> interaction, and limited empathy with their peers. This particular
> person doesn't seem to get along with anyone, nor does he appear to
> care to. He has a habit of constantly reporting what he deems
> grievous issues of misconduct to the boss, but the issues are
> typically trivial. He is almost incapable of working with other
> people, as he must do things his way or he gets very agitated.
>
> Wait, I have just described 70% of the people I work with. Wait
> again, I have just described me!
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Alejandro Tejada wrote:
>
>> By the way, and only as an interesting sidenote,
>> one of the creator of the Pokemon franchise,
>> is a real life Forrest Gump.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Tajiri>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome>>
>> So, i just could imagine how difficult was
>> his time in school...
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.
>> 278305.n4.nabble.com/OT-Interesting-Read-On-Tech-In-Classrooms-vs-
>> None-tp3933226p3934615.html
>> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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My son was diagnosed with speech delay disorder and asperger (I
thought it was called Ashbergers) syndrome (very slight autism - totally
high functioning), so I know the struggles are real.
Mike
On Mon, 24
Oct 2011 15:17:19 -0700, annette dejulio wrote:
> Dear Mr. Sneidar,
>
> I emailed you once in the hopes of clearing my deceased husband's
>
name from the LiveCode listing, however I was not successful and I
>
have continued to receive the email. I have categorized it as junk
> (
I don't mean to be rude or unkind). I usually delete all of the
>
livecode without any regard. I have no idea why I read this about
> the
person with Asperger Syndrome, but as a teacher with a great deal
> of
experience dealing with Autistic children, I woul like to plead
>
patience and understanding for these folks. Neurologically, the
>
Asperger person is quite bright and struggles every day to deal with
>
a strange, frustrating world.
>
> Sincerely,
> Annette DeJulio
>
> On
Oct 24, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:
>
>> We have someone at
work here that has been diagnosed as having this disorder. Of special
note is the abnormalities in social interaction, and limited empathy
with their peers. This particular person doesn't seem to get along with
anyone, nor does he appear to care to. He has a habit of constantly
reporting what he deems grievous issues of misconduct to the boss, but
the issues are typically trivial. He is almost incapable of working with
other people, as he must do things his way or he gets very agitated.
Wait, I have just described 70% of the people I work with. Wait again, I
have just described me! Bob On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Alejandro
Tejada wrote:
>>
>>> By the way, and only as an interesting sidenote,
one of the creator of the Pokemon franchise, is a real life Forrest
Gump. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Tajiri [1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome [2] So, i just could
imagine how difficult was his time in school... -- View this message in
context: http://runtime-revolution.
278305.n4.nabble.com/OT-Interesting-Read-On-Tech-In-Classrooms-vs-
None-tp3933226p3934615.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list
archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________
use-livecode mailing list [hidden email] [3] Please visit
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>> _______________________________________________ use-livecode
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>
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Links:
------
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Tajiri[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome[3]
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Thanks for the link. I'm always surprised the media doesn't talk this up more.
Scott Morrow
Elementary Software
(Now with 20% less chalk dust!)
web http://elementarysoftware.com/email [hidden email]
office 1-800-615-0867
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On Oct 24, 2011, at 7:09 AM, Scott Rossi wrote:
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having run a high school computer lab and taught multimedia there its
really true that they are oversold and underused. it takes a lot of
creativity and flexibility to find when and where you get a hight bang
for the buck to use computers in the classroom, otherwise you are just
spending a lot of time and money that yields negative learning
returns... i do fear taking the other extreme can be just as
problematic.
its the content, stupid was my old motto. folks get wrapped up in to
the tech use/process and forget that its sposta be about the learning
unless you are in a specialized tech class. for some things you can do
some wonderfully engaging things with computers and tech in the
classroom, but its really limited in its scope and requires resources,
planning, and experience to do it for a positive educational gain. was
actually a hard concept to get across to some teachers and made some
battles, but the shining examples eventually won them over to doing
more planning and limits on how/when the computers were used. others
hated all technology and it took a time and work to show them some
places where it could really help.
its like most things the simple rules of, everything in moderation;
right tool, right task; there is no magic bullet /there is no free
lunch; tend to be such good guides.
so much of this stuff gets jammed into education by powers above. in
the late 90s i gave a presentation to the heads of all the bay bells
about interactive multimedia education. they were all hot with the
roll out of interactive services via their new systems they thought
that they could make millions by delivering/selling educational
materials via tv/computer. i showed them really cool things we had
done that were very successful, and they were really drooling, but i
left the last third of the talk to interactively discuss with them the
other shoe(s) to drop. first these were in very specific, cherry
picked places where technology really worked great and that was not
true of the vast majority of things to be taught/exhibited, then the
cost to develop content to this cool interactive level (jaws dropped).
then finally i had them estimate how much they spent on educational
materials themselves (id say most of these guys were in the 7-8 figure
range of income) and it was pretty pathetically small. i then
contrasted ok you make over a million dollars a year what do you think
someone making $40k will spend. big silence. i told them these were
not a deal breakers, but just moderators and that they needed to
choose wisely where and when technology should be inserted into
education to be successful. it was interesting chatting with them over
the rest of the weekend event as many admitted they were ready to just
try and jam this down the tubes w/o ever thinking about these things.
was an eye opener for me at how things were done at that level too...
cheers
jeff
On Oct 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, [hidden email]
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In reply to this post by scott@elementarysoftware.com
The NY Times has a whole series of articles on just this topic, "Grading the Digital School' , http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/technology/technology-in-schools-faces-questions-on-value.html?pagewanted=all This latest one on Waldorf schools falls along these lines.
This has been a pretty active discussion in the social neighborhoods I inhabit. There are all kinds of pro and con conversations and links, for example,on the Waldorf schools like this one being passed around: http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/Staudenmaier.html
Lots of people blogging about it…which in my opinion is a good thing, conversation, discussion, awareness, appreciation, opposition, etc. etc.
Cheers!
John Patten
SUSD
On Oct 24, 2011, at 11:58 PM, Scott Morrow wrote:
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Hi Jeff,
I agree completely. In 1998 computer scientist Elliot Solloway observed
that "...by and large, schools use only software that comes already
installed on the machine (a word processor, a spreadsheet, a drawing
program)... computers are being used as typewriters. Its heartbreaking."
Computers are just the latest incarnation of new technology as a magic
bullet. In 1922 Thomas Alva Edison -- not normally thought of as an
imbecile -- wrote this about the motion picture:
"I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionise our
educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely, if
not entirely, the use of textbooks. I should say that we get about two
percent efficiency out of schoolbooks as they are written today. The
education of the future, as I see it, will be conducted through the medium
of the motion picture where it should be possible to obtain one hundred
percent efficiency."
That obviously didn't happen. Neither did "universities of the airwaves"
with radio and except for a very few exceptional examples like Sesame
Street and The Electric Company, neither did television. And neither will
computers, and for all the same reasons.
It's not that computers are of zero value in the classroom; it's that
teachers by and large are computer-phobic and not taught to use anything
other than the web and M$ office and maybe, just maybe, front page.
Sometimes HyperStudio but from what I've heard from people who graduated
with their teaching credential from my institution, the HS class was
taught by somebody who didn't know anything about it.
My kids have been in US public schools for 6 years. Every year I've asked
the kids about computer usage (little to none), asked whether they even
were functional (frequently not) and checked them out myself to see that
there's basically NOTHING installed and working.
I wrote a little multiplication bingo game to help my kids learn their
multiplication tables and gave a license to each of their two teachers.
Neither one could figure out how to install it/use it.
Sigh.
I have college students who don't understand the concept of FILE FORMATS
or that they can't overwrite files that they still need to have; who can't
figure out what they named their file or where they saved it. Who can't
login to a system where their login and password are first initial last
name.
I kid you not.
:(((((((
Judy
On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Jeff
Reynolds wrote:
> having run a high school computer lab and taught multimedia there its really
> true that they are oversold and underused. it takes a lot of creativity and
> flexibility to find when and where you get a hight bang for the buck to use
> computers in the classroom, otherwise you are just spending a lot of time and
> money that yields negative learning returns... i do fear taking the other
> extreme can be just as problematic.
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Judy you are describing my workplace! I guess the problem persists into the workplace as well. If school children were taught how to solve problems instead of memorize answers, I think we would find that when confronted with technology, they as adults would have the skills to incorporate the technology into whatever it is they needed to do. As is, unless they can find it on Google, they give up trying. Some don't even know to use Google!
We seem to have transformed from a nation of problem solvers to one of automatons. Maybe I am being pessimistic, but I work with people everyday who want the best hardware and software, and then end up producing unadulterated garbage with it. Web sites that should never see the light of day, video clips posted to the web that I would be embarrassed to have my name attached to for fear my reputation would be irrevocably ruined, step by step lists of how to do something on a sticky note that reveal the person knows absolutely nothing about what it is they are doing, users that get stuck at the logon screen because their password doesn't work and cannot fathom that the user name has changed, or why that would make a difference (I just enter my password every day, that is all I know!) I could go on.
I say, define and support mission critical technology, scrap technology for other positions, replace the people who cannot cope. It's the only way back from the brink. Ye Old Curmudgeon has spoken.
Bob
On Oct 25, 2011, at 2:41 PM, Judy Perry wrote:
> Sigh.
>
> I have college students who don't understand the concept of FILE FORMATS or that they can't overwrite files that they still need to have; who can't figure out what they named their file or where they saved it. Who can't login to a system where their login and password are first initial last name.
>
> I kid you not.
>
> :(((((((
>
> Judy
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