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Object Selection Handles

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Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
Greetings!   Is there a property to change the shape of the selection handles when using the selection tool?  In LC 9 (and 8), they are round circles that protrude outside the edge of the control.  In previous versions, they were squares that remained within the rect of the control.  These large “dots” make it hard to do fine alignment of controls.

I know there is a selectionHandleColor property, but is there anything like a selectionHandleShape property?

Also, the border of the selected control is dashed when selected.  Can that be removed as well?

Thanks in advance,
-Dan

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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
Dan Friedman wrote:

 > Is there a property to change the shape of the selection handles when
 > using the selection tool?  In LC 9 (and 8), they are round circles
 > that protrude outside the edge of the control.  In previous versions,
 > they were squares that remained within the rect of the control.
 > These large “dots” make it hard to do fine alignment of controls.
 >
 > I know there is a selectionHandleColor property, but is there
 > anything like a selectionHandleShape property?

I too find the selection handles harder to work with.  I submitted a
request for an adjustable size; I don't mind if you add a note there
asking for shape as well (the older rectangles would be preferable to me
as well, much less ambiguous than any anti-aliased curve shape):
http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16375


 > Also, the border of the selected control is dashed when selected.
 > Can that be removed as well?

The new selection borders drive me crazy - I can't see the edges clearly
when resizing, and can't see them at all when applying border treatments
- request to make that option here:
http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17057

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
A lesson should be taken from any CAD program worth its salt.


Handles are ALWAYS rectangles for objects, and always within the bounds of the object in question.


That said, a group might be an exception, since handles would overlie the controls at the extreme corners of a group, and that looks and feels wrong.


Craig Newman



-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
To: use-livecode <[hidden email]>
Cc: Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, Mar 27, 2017 3:39 pm
Subject: Re: Object Selection Handles

Dan Friedman wrote: > Is there a property to change the shape of the selection handles when > using the selection tool?  In LC 9 (and 8), they are round circles > that protrude outside the edge of the control.  In previous versions, > they were squares that remained within the rect of the control. > These large “dots” make it hard to do fine alignment of controls. > > I know there is a selectionHandleColor property, but is there > anything like a selectionHandleShape property?I too find the selection handles harder to work with.  I submitted a request for an adjustable size; I don't mind if you add a note there asking for shape as well (the older rectangles would be preferable to me as well, much less ambiguous than any anti-aliased curve shape):http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16375 > Also, the border of the selected control is dashed when selected. > Can that be removed as well?The new selection borders drive me crazy - I can't see the edges clearly when resizing, and can't see them at all when applying border treatments - request to make that option here:http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17057--   Richard Gaskin  Fourth World Systems  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web  ____________________________________________________________________  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com_______________________________________________use-livecode mailing [hidden email] visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
Instead of declaring that this is how it should be, it's much better to
provide examples and justification. I just checked, and every application I
have on this computer does selection handles with the center of the handle
on the boundary of the object.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 3:04 AM Craig Newman via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> A lesson should be taken from any CAD program worth its salt.
>
>
> Handles are ALWAYS rectangles for objects, and always within the bounds of
> the object in question.
>
>
> That said, a group might be an exception, since handles would overlie the
> controls at the extreme corners of a group, and that looks and feels wrong.
>
>
> Craig Newman
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]>
> To: use-livecode <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Mon, Mar 27, 2017 3:39 pm
> Subject: Re: Object Selection Handles
>
> Dan Friedman wrote: > Is there a property to change the shape of the
> selection handles when > using the selection tool?  In LC 9 (and 8), they
> are round circles > that protrude outside the edge of the control.  In
> previous versions, > they were squares that remained within the rect of the
> control. > These large “dots” make it hard to do fine alignment of
> controls. > > I know there is a selectionHandleColor property, but is there
> > anything like a selectionHandleShape property?I too find the selection
> handles harder to work with.  I submitted a request for an adjustable size;
> I don't mind if you add a note there asking for shape as well (the older
> rectangles would be preferable to me as well, much less ambiguous than any
> anti-aliased curve shape):
> http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16375 > Also, the border of
> the selected control is dashed when selected. > Can that be removed as
> well?The new selection borders drive me crazy - I can't see the edges
> clearly when resizing, and can't see them at all when applying border
> treatments - request to make that option here:
> http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17057--   Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems  Software Design and Development for the Desktop,
> Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> [hidden email]
> http://www.FourthWorld.com_______________________________________________use-livecode
> mailing [hidden email] visit this url to
> subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
In reply to this post by prothero--- via use-livecode
Ali Lloyd wrote:

 > Instead of declaring that this is how it should be, it's much better
 > to provide examples and justification. I just checked, and every
 > application I have on this computer does selection handles with the
 > center of the handle on the boundary of the object.

Centering the handle on the corrner/edge is how LibreDraw does it too.

I think that makes sense, given that the user will aim for the center of
the handle, and as such will be aiming for the corner/edge.

As for shape, the justification is is that a solid square is an easier
target to hit than an anti-aliased circle.

I believe Adobe Illustrator uses circles, but AFAIK only for Bezier
points.  Object boundary handles there seem to be square, as they are in
LibreDraw, and historically in apps like Fireworks all the way back to
NeXTStep Layout and MacDraw.

Apple's Interface Builder uses square handles:
<http://www.iclarified.com/images/news/48631/225956/225956-640.jpg>

MSDN shows square handles even for Bezier points:
<https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms819520.aspx>

Xamarin also uses square handles:
<https://developer.xamarin.com/guides/ios/user_interface/controls/part_1_-_creating_user_interface_objects/Images/Image8a.png>

Qt Creator as well:
<http://doc.crossplatform.ru/qtcreator/en/2.0/images/qtcreator-mobile-project-widgets.png>

Even FileMaker Pro:
<https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/filemaker-pro-14/9781491917473/httpatomoreillycomsourceoreillyimages2192071.png.jpg>

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Object Selection Handles

dunbarx
Ali.

I was presumptuous.

But having handles fully within their object makes them easy to grab without possibly selecting a near neighbor instead. I have this issue all the time, aligning and adjusting closely spaced controls. I often just select a control, nudge it a few times with an arrowKey to clear the handle of interest, and only then grab. This is a pain.

So do you see any advantage to having handles outboard?

And rectangular handles are at least conforming with the typical shape and extent of a control's rect; a round peg does not fit in that hole, and somewhat misleads as to the precise visual boundary of that rect.

Anyway, if my vote counts at all, rectangular handles inBoard, a la v.6.

Craig Newman
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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
In reply to this post by prothero--- via use-livecode
The code hit-detects as if the handles were square, so the hit-detection
area is actually bigger than it used to be.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 4:51 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ali Lloyd wrote:
>
>  > Instead of declaring that this is how it should be, it's much better
>  > to provide examples and justification. I just checked, and every
>  > application I have on this computer does selection handles with the
>  > center of the handle on the boundary of the object.
>
> Centering the handle on the corrner/edge is how LibreDraw does it too.
>
> I think that makes sense, given that the user will aim for the center of
> the handle, and as such will be aiming for the corner/edge.
>
> As for shape, the justification is is that a solid square is an easier
> target to hit than an anti-aliased circle.
>
> I believe Adobe Illustrator uses circles, but AFAIK only for Bezier
> points.  Object boundary handles there seem to be square, as they are in
> LibreDraw, and historically in apps like Fireworks all the way back to
> NeXTStep Layout and MacDraw.
>
> Apple's Interface Builder uses square handles:
> <http://www.iclarified.com/images/news/48631/225956/225956-640.jpg>
>
> MSDN shows square handles even for Bezier points:
> <https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms819520.aspx>
>
> Xamarin also uses square handles:
> <
> https://developer.xamarin.com/guides/ios/user_interface/controls/part_1_-_creating_user_interface_objects/Images/Image8a.png
> >
>
> Qt Creator as well:
> <
> http://doc.crossplatform.ru/qtcreator/en/2.0/images/qtcreator-mobile-project-widgets.png
> >
>
> Even FileMaker Pro:
> <
> https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/filemaker-pro-14/9781491917473/httpatomoreillycomsourceoreillyimages2192071.png.jpg
> >
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>   [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>
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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
> So do you see any advantage to having handles outboard?

Yes, it is impossible to resize an object's width or height to zero (or
within (size of handle) of zero) when the handles are inside the object.
Also, you could not previously make a line straight using the selection
handles inside an object, for roughly the same reason.

If you're making precision changes to an object's rect that require seeing
the selection handles within the rect, it seems to me you'd be much better
off adjusting the rect via the message box or using the alignment tools.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 5:08 PM Ali Lloyd <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The code hit-detects as if the handles were square, so the hit-detection
> area is actually bigger than it used to be.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 4:51 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ali Lloyd wrote:
>
>  > Instead of declaring that this is how it should be, it's much better
>  > to provide examples and justification. I just checked, and every
>  > application I have on this computer does selection handles with the
>  > center of the handle on the boundary of the object.
>
> Centering the handle on the corrner/edge is how LibreDraw does it too.
>
> I think that makes sense, given that the user will aim for the center of
> the handle, and as such will be aiming for the corner/edge.
>
> As for shape, the justification is is that a solid square is an easier
> target to hit than an anti-aliased circle.
>
> I believe Adobe Illustrator uses circles, but AFAIK only for Bezier
> points.  Object boundary handles there seem to be square, as they are in
> LibreDraw, and historically in apps like Fireworks all the way back to
> NeXTStep Layout and MacDraw.
>
> Apple's Interface Builder uses square handles:
> <http://www.iclarified.com/images/news/48631/225956/225956-640.jpg>
>
> MSDN shows square handles even for Bezier points:
> <https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms819520.aspx>
>
> Xamarin also uses square handles:
> <
> https://developer.xamarin.com/guides/ios/user_interface/controls/part_1_-_creating_user_interface_objects/Images/Image8a.png
> >
>
> Qt Creator as well:
> <
> http://doc.crossplatform.ru/qtcreator/en/2.0/images/qtcreator-mobile-project-widgets.png
> >
>
> Even FileMaker Pro:
> <
> https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/filemaker-pro-14/9781491917473/httpatomoreillycomsourceoreillyimages2192071.png.jpg
> >
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>   [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
In reply to this post by prothero--- via use-livecode
Ali Lloyd wrote:

 > The code hit-detects as if the handles were square, so the
 > hit-detection area is actually bigger than it used to be.

And there's the difference between engineering and user experience:

It may be bigger, but if it's visually ambiguous user's won't be able to
know that.

A rectangle is an unambiguous representation of the hit rect, which may
be why so many other tools (and even LC for most of its life) uses them.


But there's more:

If we examine the interaction even more closely, there's a related
issue, perhaps with the hitPoint of the cursor.  I can move the arrow
pointer inside the visible handle circle, but it doesn't change to the
direction arrow (nice touch) until I'm within just a pixel or two of the
centerpoint.

If the hit rect is indeed bigger, it not only feels smaller by virtue of
being virtualized in non-rendered corners around the circular handle
shape, but appears to the eye and hand to be visibly smaller when
attempting to click on the handle, since I now need to get much closer
to the center than I recall having to do before.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
In reply to this post by prothero--- via use-livecode
Ditto what Dan, Richard, Craig said

(letting off just a little steam here too)

Ali: "provide examples"

 Adobe illustrator see:

http://wiki.hindu.org/uploads/square-small-selection-handles.jpg

Ali: "justification"

-- I've been ranting for 2 decades about how LC IDE needs to be optimized for 21st century elegant GUI design.

-- Graphic designers don't switch to console and start typing "set the rect of some object to X,X,X,X"   "never gonna happen"

-- Good design is precise design, a miniscule adjustment in the scale of an object, left-edge, can make the difference in production values between looking "hokey" vs looking "awesome". If you take that ability away from the user, you shoot your product in the foot.

-- Please, always optimize the IDE for quality design production values and not necessarily ease of use for your kid sister. Yes, your kid sister might find a large handle useful to just drag out an object in a use case that is as vague as "I just want it bigger." But that is not how "real" design is done. We need quality tools for the whole front end UI builder market… and each of us here switches hats (programmer/designer) 20 times a day…

-- point: we don't mind if the selection handles are small, zoom is always an option; if the mouse can pick up them up easily in a "nearby" area, that's also OK, but they must be centered on the border-edge/corner… because if I'm working to move the edge, scale up-down an object, I will make the visual "subconscious" assumption that the center of the handle = the X,Y or X or Y position of [whatever]

Anything else is just "wrong"  

BR

 

On 3/27/17, 10:41 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Ali Lloyd via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    Instead of declaring that this is how it should be, it's much better to
    provide examples and justification. I just checked, and every application I
    have on this computer does selection handles with the center of the handle
    on the boundary of the object.

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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
That's why I do 95% of my graphic design "elsewhere" (Gimp, Inkscape,
and so on). Doing the "application dance" seems
to take up an awful lot of time, and that along with the eternal
import-export-import thing can get a wee bit tedious.

If all the graphic stuff could be done on-board things would be faster
and easier.

+1

Richmond.

On 3/28/17 10:43 pm, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode wrote:

> Ditto what Dan, Richard, Craig said
>
> (letting off just a little steam here too)
>
> Ali: "provide examples"
>
>   Adobe illustrator see:
>
> http://wiki.hindu.org/uploads/square-small-selection-handles.jpg
>
> Ali: "justification"
>
> -- I've been ranting for 2 decades about how LC IDE needs to be optimized for 21st century elegant GUI design.
>
> -- Graphic designers don't switch to console and start typing "set the rect of some object to X,X,X,X"   "never gonna happen"
>
> -- Good design is precise design, a miniscule adjustment in the scale of an object, left-edge, can make the difference in production values between looking "hokey" vs looking "awesome". If you take that ability away from the user, you shoot your product in the foot.
>
> -- Please, always optimize the IDE for quality design production values and not necessarily ease of use for your kid sister. Yes, your kid sister might find a large handle useful to just drag out an object in a use case that is as vague as "I just want it bigger." But that is not how "real" design is done. We need quality tools for the whole front end UI builder market… and each of us here switches hats (programmer/designer) 20 times a day…
>
> -- point: we don't mind if the selection handles are small, zoom is always an option; if the mouse can pick up them up easily in a "nearby" area, that's also OK, but they must be centered on the border-edge/corner… because if I'm working to move the edge, scale up-down an object, I will make the visual "subconscious" assumption that the center of the handle = the X,Y or X or Y position of [whatever]
>
> Anything else is just "wrong"
>
> BR
>
>  
>
> On 3/27/17, 10:41 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Ali Lloyd via use-livecode" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>      Instead of declaring that this is how it should be, it's much better to
>      provide examples and justification. I just checked, and every application I
>      have on this computer does selection handles with the center of the handle
>      on the boundary of the object.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
In reply to this post by prothero--- via use-livecode
Just a general agreement here, I also have some issues with the new
design for selections. The circular handles look strange to me but it's
an adjustment I can deal with. The dotted outline bothers me more
because it is harder to see the edges of the object, though I suspect it
was implemented to match the Project Browser.

The main problem I have with it though is that I can't easily apply and
observe effects applied to the edges of objects. To see a small shadow,
for example, I have to de-select the object first. Then if it doesn't
look right, I have to re-select the object and also re-select both the
effects pane and the shadow dialog in the inspector, because the
inspector resets when nothing is selected. That makes adjustments a
painful process that has to be repeated many times before I get what I'm
aiming for. That, for me, is the main irritation.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
In reply to this post by dunbarx
The software should allow you to select the handle of the foreground object if only one is selected, and if multiple objects are selected, the nearest neighbor to your click point. If anchors are so close as to conflict, you should be able to zoom in. I think this is a non-issue.

Bob S


> On Mar 28, 2017, at 08:53 , dunbarx via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But having handles fully within their object makes them easy to grab without
> possibly selecting a near neighbor instead. I have this issue all the time,
> aligning and adjusting closely spaced controls.


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Re: Object Selection Handles

prothero--- via use-livecode
In reply to this post by prothero--- via use-livecode
Actually, I really appreciate Adobe Illustrator's object properties dialog. Sometimes I LIKE being able to define an object's dimensions by typing in coordinates. CAD designers do this all the time. Of course, advanced features like snap to point make this mostly obsolete, but if you need a wall that is x by y by z it is MUCH easier to type in the dimensions than try to drag it to spec.

Bob S


> On Mar 28, 2017, at 12:43 , Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> -- Graphic designers don't switch to console and start typing "set the rect of some object to X,X,X,X"   "never gonna happen"


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