Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

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Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Peter Alcibiades
Here is how I would go about tracking down these things.  Just to recap,
the things we are seeking to track down are these four:

-- not all and only installed fonts are visible and useable
-- revPrintField does not work properly
-- virtual desktops don't work
-- editor slows down, freezes and crashes

Are there other priority areas?  There are other niggles, but are there
other real basic functionaliry showstoppers?

My suggestion for going about tracking this down is quite different from
what most people here will instinctively want to do.  The general view here
is that Linux is an enormously complex mix of components, so the thing to
do is pick some large general purpose distro and standardize on it.  I do
not believe this to be the solution.  In fact, it is a wrong diagnosis of
the problem.  This approach, which regards each distro as a distinct OS, is
actually part of the problem.

Were I in charge of the effort I would proceed in EXACTLY THE REVERSE WAY.  
I would seek to find the minimum installation set, and within that, the one
closest to the way packages are released by the developer, that will allow
the reproduction of the problems.

You can argue about which distro will most readily meet these requirements,
but if you want to start from something fairly simple and mainstream and
not start compiling the whole thing from scratch, the contender that leaps
out at you is Slackware.  I accept, there could be an argument for going
even further down, like Slitaz or TinyCore.  Maybe that is worth a try as
well, but they are not, as Slackware is, deliberately as untweaked as
possible.

So I  would propose doing a minimal install of slackware, with nothing but
the basic system and the most basic window manager, probably OpenBox.  
Maybe Metacity without Gnome desktop environment, if you want to be as
close as possible to mainstream what it will have to run on.  But no
Firefox, no OpenOffice, no apps at all.

If you can reproduce the problems on this sort of minimal install, then you
are much closer to the source, because you have basically ruled out all
distro specific issues.  If not, then start to add stuff until you do get
the problems.

I understand that on this list there is a, well, a precoccupation, with
Ubuntu as a distro for use.  This is not about use however, this is about a
tool to get to the source of the problems.

I'm prepared to do serious work on this, but am not capable of writing
patches to the IDE myself, and before getting started on the project, would
welcome comment, and would like us to have an agreed approach, so what do
you all think of the above?  It would also be nice to have some feedback
from Edinburgh, to the effect that given contributions from us, they will
do their bit also.

Peter
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Richmond Mathewson-2
On 07/16/2010 10:25 AM, Peter Alcibiades wrote:

> Here is how I would go about tracking down these things.  Just to recap,
> the things we are seeking to track down are these four:
>
> -- not all and only installed fonts are visible and useable
> -- revPrintField does not work properly
> -- virtual desktops don't work
> -- editor slows down, freezes and crashes
>
> Are there other priority areas?  There are other niggles, but are there
> other real basic functionaliry showstoppers?
>    

The other one that "gets a bit much" is that the Dictionary is glacially
slow.

> My suggestion for going about tracking this down is quite different from
> what most people here will instinctively want to do.  The general view here
> is that Linux is an enormously complex mix of components, so the thing to
> do is pick some large general purpose distro and standardize on it.  I do
> not believe this to be the solution.  In fact, it is a wrong diagnosis of
> the problem.  This approach, which regards each distro as a distinct OS, is
> actually part of the problem.
>
> Were I in charge of the effort I would proceed in EXACTLY THE REVERSE WAY.
> I would seek to find the minimum installation set, and within that, the one
> closest to the way packages are released by the developer, that will allow
> the reproduction of the problems.
>
> You can argue about which distro will most readily meet these requirements,
> but if you want to start from something fairly simple and mainstream and
> not start compiling the whole thing from scratch, the contender that leaps
> out at you is Slackware.  I accept, there could be an argument for going
> even further down, like Slitaz or TinyCore.  Maybe that is worth a try as
> well, but they are not, as Slackware is, deliberately as untweaked as
> possible.
>
> So I  would propose doing a minimal install of slackware, with nothing but
> the basic system and the most basic window manager, probably OpenBox.
> Maybe Metacity without Gnome desktop environment, if you want to be as
> close as possible to mainstream what it will have to run on.  But no
> Firefox, no OpenOffice, no apps at all.
>
> If you can reproduce the problems on this sort of minimal install, then you
> are much closer to the source, because you have basically ruled out all
> distro specific issues.  If not, then start to add stuff until you do get
> the problems.
>
>    

This is exactly the right way to proceed.

> I understand that on this list there is a, well, a precoccupation, with
> Ubuntu as a distro for use.  This is not about use however, this is about a
> tool to get to the source of the problems.
>
> I'm prepared to do serious work on this, but am not capable of writing
> patches to the IDE myself, and before getting started on the project, would
> welcome comment, and would like us to have an agreed approach, so what do
> you all think of the above?  It would also be nice to have some feedback
> from Edinburgh, to the effect that given contributions from us, they will
> do their bit also.
>
>    

Seems to me that Richard Gaskin is doing the intermediary stuff.

> Peter
> _______________________________________________
>    

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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Andre Garzia-3
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades
show stopper: Rev on linux does not respect work with current ubuntu theme,
it all displays wrong...

ARGH can't create a single button with the correct appearance.

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:25 AM, Peter Alcibiades <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here is how I would go about tracking down these things.  Just to recap,
> the things we are seeking to track down are these four:
>
> -- not all and only installed fonts are visible and useable
> -- revPrintField does not work properly
> -- virtual desktops don't work
> -- editor slows down, freezes and crashes
>
> Are there other priority areas?  There are other niggles, but are there
> other real basic functionaliry showstoppers?
>
> My suggestion for going about tracking this down is quite different from
> what most people here will instinctively want to do.  The general view here
> is that Linux is an enormously complex mix of components, so the thing to
> do is pick some large general purpose distro and standardize on it.  I do
> not believe this to be the solution.  In fact, it is a wrong diagnosis of
> the problem.  This approach, which regards each distro as a distinct OS, is
> actually part of the problem.
>
> Were I in charge of the effort I would proceed in EXACTLY THE REVERSE WAY.
> I would seek to find the minimum installation set, and within that, the one
> closest to the way packages are released by the developer, that will allow
> the reproduction of the problems.
>
> You can argue about which distro will most readily meet these requirements,
> but if you want to start from something fairly simple and mainstream and
> not start compiling the whole thing from scratch, the contender that leaps
> out at you is Slackware.  I accept, there could be an argument for going
> even further down, like Slitaz or TinyCore.  Maybe that is worth a try as
> well, but they are not, as Slackware is, deliberately as untweaked as
> possible.
>
> So I  would propose doing a minimal install of slackware, with nothing but
> the basic system and the most basic window manager, probably OpenBox.
> Maybe Metacity without Gnome desktop environment, if you want to be as
> close as possible to mainstream what it will have to run on.  But no
> Firefox, no OpenOffice, no apps at all.
>
> If you can reproduce the problems on this sort of minimal install, then you
> are much closer to the source, because you have basically ruled out all
> distro specific issues.  If not, then start to add stuff until you do get
> the problems.
>
> I understand that on this list there is a, well, a precoccupation, with
> Ubuntu as a distro for use.  This is not about use however, this is about a
> tool to get to the source of the problems.
>
> I'm prepared to do serious work on this, but am not capable of writing
> patches to the IDE myself, and before getting started on the project, would
> welcome comment, and would like us to have an agreed approach, so what do
> you all think of the above?  It would also be nice to have some feedback
> from Edinburgh, to the effect that given contributions from us, they will
> do their bit also.
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>



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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Richmond Mathewson-2
On 07/16/2010 03:53 PM, Andre Garzia wrote:
> show stopper: Rev on linux does not respect work with current ubuntu theme,
> it all displays wrong...
>
> ARGH can't create a single button with the correct appearance.
>    

I don't think this should be a major concern; if one considers that on
my main Linux box alone I can muck around with its theme with these:

Emerald Theme Manager

CompizConfig

Simple CompizConfig

Appearance

Art Manager

and there are any number of other bits and bobs I can install to
tweak what my GUI looks like.

How one would expect RunRev to keep up with those I just don't know.

Personally, as I like a unified 'theme' to each of my end-products
regardless of which
OS or flavour thereof an end-user is going to deploy it on I do my own
artwork,
making very sure that aspects of either RunRev or the end-user's OS
windowing system
is not going to muck it up.

Rules in my book:

1. NEVER use a real button (because they are prone to change in alsorts
of funny ways on different systems).

2. NEVER use a real button (because fonts on differing systems play
merry-hell with what they look like).

3. Make your 'button' up as you like it on your homestack; snapshot it
out as a PNG and then reimport it.
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades
Andre Garzia wrote:

> show stopper: Rev on linux does not respect work with current ubuntu theme,
> it all displays wrong...
>
> ARGH can't create a single button with the correct appearance.

I just made a quick stack with standard buttons, radio buttons,
checkboxes, and a scrolling field to check this out.

I opened Ubuntu's Appearance Preferences window and tried each of the
themes there - all worked for all controls, including the field scrollbar.

The only thing that didn't work straight out was using the two Inverse
themes which invert colors (white on black).  The controls all rendered
as expected, but the text didn't automatically invert (which I'm not
sure I would expect anyway given the nature of Rev's compositing).

What steps do I need to run to see what you're seeing?

I'm using Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, with Rev 4.0.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World
  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades
Richmond wrote:
> The other one that "gets a bit much" is that the Dictionary is glacially
> slow.

I've seen this as well, but inconsistently.  It may be the way they're
parsing XML, or perhaps something in the timers, either in the way they
use them in scripts or in the engine.  Don't know quite yet, and haven't
spent much time looking into it since I use my own dictionary (the one
in MC IDE) which doesn't use external files at all but instead has
everything built into its cards ("know the engine, trust the engine, use
the engine" <g>).

Have you tried Björnke's BvG Docu?:
<http://bjoernke.com/?target=bvgdocu>

It works similarly to MC's, and is much more responsive than Rev's.  It
would be helpful to get your feedback on comparative performance.


>> I'm prepared to do serious work on this, but am not capable of writing
>> patches to the IDE myself, and before getting started on the project, would
>> welcome comment, and would like us to have an agreed approach, so what do
>> you all think of the above?  It would also be nice to have some feedback
>> from Edinburgh, to the effect that given contributions from us, they will
>> do their bit also.
>
> Seems to me that Richard Gaskin is doing the intermediary stuff.

To clarify, I'm happy to do what I can, but I certainly don't mind
anyone else doing the same.  I don't use the Rev IDE often but I do read
a fair bit of its code, so I have a feel for "where the bodies lie".  If
we can come up with good solutions for improving Rev's IDE I'm willing
to provide code review and see what can be done for two results:

1. Immediate: Make a patcher to mod the IDE to use the fix.

2. Longer-term:  Submit the code to RunRev for review and possible
inclusion in the IDE.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World
  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades
Damn fine post, Peter.  I've quoted it in its entirety because anyone
here who missed it and uses Linux would be missing out if they didn't
read it.

Excellent stuff - very exciting to see this level of energy from so many
of us going into this, kinda like how Linux itself is made.

I like your approach of targeting a minimal install, and I think it's an
excellent compliment to the admitted fetishism I have with the
relatively bloated Ubuntu.  Between your slackware, my Ubuntu, Mark
Wieder's SUSE, and there's gotta be at least one of us using Red Hat, we
should have a good matrix of small and large and in-between distros to
coordinate our testing and diagnostics among.

I really appreciate your willingness to dive in and help with the work
of improving the Rev experience on Linux.  I've never been more
optimistic about the outlook for my Rev work in Linux than I feel right
now.  Thanks.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Media Corporation
  ___________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]       http://www.FourthWorld.com


Peter Alcibiades wrote:

> Here is how I would go about tracking down these things.  Just to recap,
> the things we are seeking to track down are these four:
>
> -- not all and only installed fonts are visible and useable
> -- revPrintField does not work properly
> -- virtual desktops don't work
> -- editor slows down, freezes and crashes
>
> Are there other priority areas?  There are other niggles, but are there
> other real basic functionality showstoppers?
>
> My suggestion for going about tracking this down is quite different from
> what most people here will instinctively want to do.  The general view here
> is that Linux is an enormously complex mix of components, so the thing to
> do is pick some large general purpose distro and standardize on it.  I do
> not believe this to be the solution.  In fact, it is a wrong diagnosis of
> the problem.  This approach, which regards each distro as a distinct OS, is
> actually part of the problem.
>
> Were I in charge of the effort I would proceed in EXACTLY THE REVERSE WAY.
> I would seek to find the minimum installation set, and within that, the one
> closest to the way packages are released by the developer, that will allow
> the reproduction of the problems.
>
> You can argue about which distro will most readily meet these requirements,
> but if you want to start from something fairly simple and mainstream and
> not start compiling the whole thing from scratch, the contender that leaps
> out at you is Slackware.  I accept, there could be an argument for going
> even further down, like Slitaz or TinyCore.  Maybe that is worth a try as
> well, but they are not, as Slackware is, deliberately as untweaked as
> possible.
>
> So I  would propose doing a minimal install of slackware, with nothing but
> the basic system and the most basic window manager, probably OpenBox.
> Maybe Metacity without Gnome desktop environment, if you want to be as
> close as possible to mainstream what it will have to run on.  But no
> Firefox, no OpenOffice, no apps at all.
>
> If you can reproduce the problems on this sort of minimal install, then you
> are much closer to the source, because you have basically ruled out all
> distro specific issues.  If not, then start to add stuff until you do get
> the problems.
>
> I understand that on this list there is a, well, a precoccupation, with
> Ubuntu as a distro for use.  This is not about use however, this is about a
> tool to get to the source of the problems.
>
> I'm prepared to do serious work on this, but am not capable of writing
> patches to the IDE myself, and before getting started on the project, would
> welcome comment, and would like us to have an agreed approach, so what do
> you all think of the above?  It would also be nice to have some feedback
> from Edinburgh, to the effect that given contributions from us, they will
> do their bit also.
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Andre Garzia-3
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
I just made a quick stack with standard buttons, radio buttons, checkboxes,
and a scrolling field to check this out.

>
> I opened Ubuntu's Appearance Preferences window and tried each of the
> themes there - all worked for all controls, including the field scrollbar.
>
> The only thing that didn't work straight out was using the two Inverse
> themes which invert colors (white on black).  The controls all rendered as
> expected, but the text didn't automatically invert (which I'm not sure I
> would expect anyway given the nature of Rev's compositing).
>
> What steps do I need to run to see what you're seeing?
>
> I'm using Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, with Rev 4.0.
>
>

Richard,

Despites my poor attempt at linux screenshots, take a look at:

http://andregarzia.com/Screenshot.png

This is Ubuntu 10.04 with default theme. Check the following issues:
* buttons are simply wrong both the default button and the push button.
* progress scrollbar has a tiny squared artifact inside next to the image
that actually fills it

Yes we can use square buttons though... not the round ones...






>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World
>  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
>  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
>  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>



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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades
Andre Garzia wrote:

> Despites my poor attempt at linux screenshots, take a look at:
>
> http://andregarzia.com/Screenshot.png
>
> This is Ubuntu 10.04 with default theme. Check the following issues:
> * buttons are simply wrong both the default button and the push button.
> * progress scrollbar has a tiny squared artifact inside next to the image
> that actually fills it
>
> Yes we can use square buttons though... not the round ones...

Good eye - I've logged the squarish radio buttons as a bug:
<http://quality.runrev.com/qacenter/show_bug.cgi?id=8856>

Kevin told me on Monday that the default button appearance has been
fixed for v4.5; should be evident in the next DP.

Forgive my poor eyesight, but what's amiss with the standard button?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World
  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Andre Garzia-3
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Andre Garzia wrote:
>
>  Despites my poor attempt at linux screenshots, take a look at:
>>
>> http://andregarzia.com/Screenshot.png
>>
>> This is Ubuntu 10.04 with default theme. Check the following issues:
>> * buttons are simply wrong both the default button and the push button.
>> * progress scrollbar has a tiny squared artifact inside next to the image
>> that actually fills it
>>
>> Yes we can use square buttons though... not the round ones...
>>
>
> Good eye - I've logged the squarish radio buttons as a bug:
> <http://quality.runrev.com/qacenter/show_bug.cgi?id=8856>
>
> Kevin told me on Monday that the default button appearance has been fixed
> for v4.5; should be evident in the next DP.
>
> Forgive my poor eyesight, but what's amiss with the standard button?


The standard button has a darker square around it that is not a part of the
button itself. As if it was being drawn as opaque and the whole square
occupied by the button is drawn in a darker or different tone, I know the
button is supposed to be darker but not the surrounding area, it is as if
the button occupies a rect with some padding, between this rect and the
actuall button, meaning the gap or space between the button border and the
control rect should be on the theme background and not a darker tone. This
is what causes the squarish thing on the radio and on the progress as well.
Controls are being drawn and sometimes the surrounding collors or bounding
rects are wrong.

If you are on your linux and has a windows or mac keyboard attached to it,
try pressing WINDOWN+N or CMD+N to turn your screen to a negative image, in
the negative image is easier to spot the tone differents and the wrong
rects. Press again to turn it back to normal.

For example see how round should be the interior border of the progress
inside the progress bar, the the square corners where they should not be?

Are those little cosmetic things that makes us need to go with custom
controls and that makes the whole process difficult. I am no scott rossi to
roll my own super beautiful controls, I need the GUI to work for me.

:D




>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World
>  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
>  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
>  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>



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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades
Andre wrote:

> The standard button has a darker square around it that is not a part of the
> button itself. As if it was being drawn as opaque and the whole square
> occupied by the button is drawn in a darker or different tone, I know the
> button is supposed to be darker but not the surrounding area, it is as if
> the button occupies a rect with some padding, between this rect and the
> actuall button, meaning the gap or space between the button border and the
> control rect should be on the theme background and not a darker tone. This
> is what causes the squarish thing on the radio and on the progress as well.
> Controls are being drawn and sometimes the surrounding collors or bounding
> rects are wrong.
>
> If you are on your linux and has a windows or mac keyboard attached to it,
> try pressing WINDOWN+N or CMD+N to turn your screen to a negative image, in
> the negative image is easier to spot the tone differents and the wrong
> rects. Press again to turn it back to normal.
>
> For example see how round should be the interior border of the progress
> inside the progress bar, the the square corners where they should not be?
>
> Are those little cosmetic things that makes us need to go with custom
> controls and that makes the whole process difficult. I am no scott rossi to
> roll my own super beautiful controls, I need the GUI to work for me.

Good find - thanks.

Logged:

<http://quality.runrev.com/qacenter/show_bug.cgi?id=8857>

--
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  Fourth World
  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Andre Garzia-3
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Good find - thanks.
>
> Logged:
>
> <http://quality.runrev.com/qacenter/show_bug.cgi?id=8857>
>

Thanks for the report, I attached the image, commented and voted for! :-D

Let us see if they throw us some linux love...


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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Peter Alcibiades
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
If anyone wants to follow along with Slackware, this is where to get the isos.  Only the first three CDs should be needed.  

http://spheniscus.uio.no/pub/linux/slackware/slackware-13.1-iso/

Be aware though, this is not exactly Linux as she is known today, this is not the land of graphical installers, automatic and safe disk partitioning and automatic dependency checks.  This is the command line and editing config files.  Kind of fun to get back to it.  I am proposing to shrink the partitions on my usual machine and do a clean install into free space, then get going.

Peter

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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Richmond Mathewson-2
On 07/16/2010 07:27 PM, Peter Alcibiades wrote:

> If anyone wants to follow along with Slackware, this is where to get the
> isos.  Only the first three CDs should be needed.
>
> http://spheniscus.uio.no/pub/linux/slackware/slackware-13.1-iso/
>
> Be aware though, this is not exactly Linux as she is known today, this is
> not the land of graphical installers, automatic and safe disk partitioning
> and automatic dependency checks.  This is the command line and editing
> config files.  Kind of fun to get back to it.  I am proposing to shrink the
> partitions on my usual machine and do a clean install into free space, then
> get going.
>
> Peter
>
>    
And what, pray tell, is the point of that? unless to demonstrate
hairy-chestedness.

Surely RunRev 4 needs to function on the Linux distros of 'today';
rather like RunRev 4
doesn't work on Mac OS 10.2; a Mac OS of 'yesterday'.

And, frankly. I doubt that many users and would-be users of RunRev on
Linux can
be bothered to mess around with the sort of thing I successfully trashed
alsorts of
machines with in 1999!

Wouldn't it be sensible to find a 2 year old 'general' Linux rather than
going back to
the future?

Let's say a Debian release from mid-2008 ????
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

David C.
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Peter Alcibiades
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> If anyone wants to follow along with Slackware, this is where to get the
> isos.  Only the first three CDs should be needed.
>
> http://spheniscus.uio.no/pub/linux/slackware/slackware-13.1-iso/
>
> Be aware though, this is not exactly Linux as she is known today, this is
> not the land of graphical installers, automatic and safe disk partitioning
> and automatic dependency checks.  This is the command line and editing
> config files.  <snip>

I remember the days all too well... and although very interesting at
the time, I can't attest that they were all that pleasant in many
cases.

> Kind of fun to get back to it.

Fun I believe, is a matter subject to personal interpretation. ;-)
Sorry, but I think I'm gonna pass this time around.
Good luck and happy compiling from the terminal!

Best regards,
David C.
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Peter Alcibiades
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
The point is diagnostic.  If we knew the answer, there would be no need to do this.  We need to find the lowest level at which the problems occur.  Or don't occur.  At the moment, we have no idea if its Linux, Gnome, Ubuntu.  We have no idea if its the basic packages as they come from the developer, or the distro tweaks.  I want to know exactly when the problems happen, and when they do not.  I want to get to something completely stripped down, where maybe they will not happen, and then add stuff in a controlled way till they do.

Its not macho.  its called scientific method.  Anyone with a better idea, tell us.  So far in year upon year, no-one seems to have.
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Peter Alcibiades
In reply to this post by David C.
Let me explain again.  You take the most minimalist possible Linux.  As little gui tools as possible.  You take the distro that has the least possible tweaking of any applications.  Then you try to find out:  do virtual desktops work here?  Are all fonts visible here?  Does the editor crash here?

If it works fine, you have learned something important.  You know that it is something at a higher level than this that is causing the problem.  So you start adding stuff, one thing at a time.  Eventually you can tie it down.  Or it may be that in Slackware, it just works.  Then you know it is in other distro tweaks and customizations.

This is not about what we use for goodness' sake!  I don't use Slackware any more (though I would for servers).  This is about systematically tying down what it is that is causing the problems, going through and eliminating possible causes one after the other.

I don't mind the command line and editing text files at all, but its not something that I want to do in my regular working system.  But there is no other way of getting as close to bare metal as you can, and there is no other way of eliminating most of the possible sources of the problems than getting down to bare metal.
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

David C.
> Let me explain again.  You take the most minimalist possible Linux.  As
> little gui tools as possible.  You take the distro that has the least
> possible tweaking of any applications.  Then you try to find out:  do
> virtual desktops work here?  Are all fonts visible here?  Does the editor
> crash here?
>
> If it works fine, you have learned something important.  You know that it is
> something at a higher level than this that is causing the problem.  So you
> start adding stuff, one thing at a time.  Eventually you can tie it down.
> Or it may be that in Slackware, it just works.  Then you know it is in other
> distro tweaks and customizations.
>
> This is not about what we use for goodness' sake!  I don't use Slackware any
> more (though I would for servers).  This is about systematically tying down
> what it is that is causing the problems, going through and eliminating
> possible causes one after the other.
>
> I don't mind the command line and editing text files at all, but its not
> something that I want to do in my regular working system.  But there is no
> other way of getting as close to bare metal as you can, and there is no
> other way of eliminating most of the possible sources of the problems than
> getting down to bare metal.

Oh, I understood what you are attempting completely before commenting...
I was just tossing out a few good natured jabs based on past personal
experiences and the impending "fun" you are setting up for. It's been
a long time since I've used the shell for much of anything important,
much less actually attempting to bootstrap a distro up from scratch
again...

Haven't gone down that path since around version 7 or maybe 8 of the
old Mandrake offerings and I'm happy to say so. :)

I did finally get around to wiping the drive on my laptop and
installing the latest Ubuntu last evening. Maybe I can get back in the
swing and be of some sort of help eventually.

Best regards,
David C.
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
On 07/16/2010 04:30 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> Richmond wrote:
>> The other one that "gets a bit much" is that the Dictionary is glacially
>> slow.
>
> Have you tried Björnke's BvG Docu?:
> <http://bjoernke.com/?target=bvgdocu>
>
> It works similarly to MC's, and is much more responsive than Rev's.  
> It would be helpful to get your feedback on comparative performance.
>
>
I have used it intermittently on Mac; my only criticism being that
search terms are too strict.

Just tried it on Linux and it works "right speedily"' significantly
better than the standard dox.

"Too strict""

searched for 'player' in the standard dox, and get: player, player,
vcplayer, videoClipPlayer +

in BvG Docu get only player & player.
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Re: Personal suggestion for fixing the Linux situation

François Chaplais-3
Perhaps you you could try my docu stacks, which are atop BVG docu. they are currently on RevOnline: search for "chaplais" in the category "Development".
The "initialization" stack fills the target stack with dictionary entries. Then you can save the new "myDict" stack.
You can, for instance, look for "player" in the name field
or: in the name *or* summary field
or: in the name or summary or description field.
the PDF doc can be generated from a button on the initialization stack. You will find more explanations here.
best
        François
Le 17 juil. 2010 à 15:12, Richmond a écrit :

> On 07/16/2010 04:30 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> Richmond wrote:
>>> The other one that "gets a bit much" is that the Dictionary is glacially
>>> slow.
>>
>> Have you tried Björnke's BvG Docu?:
>> <http://bjoernke.com/?target=bvgdocu>
>>
>> It works similarly to MC's, and is much more responsive than Rev's.  It would be helpful to get your feedback on comparative performance.
>>
>>
> I have used it intermittently on Mac; my only criticism being that search terms are too strict.
>
> Just tried it on Linux and it works "right speedily"' significantly better than the standard dox.
>
> "Too strict""
>
> searched for 'player' in the standard dox, and get: player, player, vcplayer, videoClipPlayer +
>
> in BvG Docu get only player & player.
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution



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