Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

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Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Mark Talluto
Dear fellow Revers,

I use Rev every day like many of you and got stuck on something.  I  
have a registration screen that works perfectly when the stack is  
modal.  When the stack is toplevel, things fall apart.  I looked up  
the modal command in the Rev Docs and found an answer to my  
question.  Modal stacks stop a script in action until the modal stack  
has been closed.  I did not realize this before.

The point is, I think it is important to post once in a while how the  
Rev Docs do work for us.  Quite possibly, they work more for us than  
they fail us.  Over the years, there have been plenty of comments on  
how the Docs are inadequate, but few on their usefulness.  I use them  
every day and have a deep appreciation for their existence.  Thank  
you to all those involved.


Mark Talluto
--
CANELA Software
http://www.canelasoftware.com

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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Timothy Miller-2
>Dear fellow Revers,
>
>I use Rev every day like many of you and got stuck on something.  I
>have a registration screen that works perfectly when the stack is
>modal.  When the stack is toplevel, things fall apart.  I looked up
>the modal command in the Rev Docs and found an answer to my
>question.  Modal stacks stop a script in action until the modal
>stack has been closed.  I did not realize this before.
>
>The point is, I think it is important to post once in a while how
>the Rev Docs do work for us.  Quite possibly, they work more for us
>than they fail us.  Over the years, there have been plenty of
>comments on how the Docs are inadequate, but few on their
>usefulness.  I use them every day and have a deep appreciation for
>their existence.  Thank you to all those involved.
>
>Mark Talluto


I agree with you more than you might expect, Mark. Very often, the
Rev docs work very well for me. It's delightful that they are
onboard. Heaven knows I look at them every day. They have been my
best teacher.

But Rev is advertised as "enterprise-ware" if I'm not mistaken. In
theory, Rev is great for pros, great for novices, and great for
do-it-yourself end-users, who possess a modicum of intelligence,
motivation and computer experience.

Maybe it's fine for Pros, but it's too damned hard for everyone else.
The documentation presently available is the biggest bottleneck, in
my opinion. It still seems to me that it just wouldn't be that hard
or expensive to make it a whole lot better.


Cheers,


Tim
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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Dan Shafer
Speaking as someone who's written a few words of documentation over  
the decades....

It is a LOT harder and more expensive than you think to make it a  
whole lot better.

RR has to decide where to put resources. And despite a lot of  
periodic and sporadic complaining about the docs, several attempts to  
set up teams of users to work on improvements and extensions have  
failed due to lack of interest.

Designing and writing good docs is nearly as hard as designing and  
writing good software.


On Jul 25, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Timothy Miller wrote:

> It still seems to me that it just wouldn't be that hard or  
> expensive to make it a whole lot better



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dan Shafer, Revolution Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
 From http://www.revolutionpros.com, Click "My Stuff"



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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

see3d
In reply to this post by Timothy Miller-2
Tim,

I have also posted in the past about the Docs merits and shortfalls  
and also suggested a wiki like you did.  A wiki would be great for  
fleshing out the docs in depth.  The built-in docs are great if you  
already know most stuff and just need a cheat sheet.  Like others  
have said the problem is how to get over the hurdle when starting  
out.  Tutorials are the best way, but they are also daunting when you  
look at all the stuff.  The scripting conferences are making a good  
backbone that could be used as the beginners tutorials for writing  
programs.  However, one of the problems is that all these pieces need  
to be updated as Rev is upgraded over time.  This can become daunting  
for an IDE tutorial with UI changes.  The whole issue is simple to  
conceptualize, and difficult to implement without strong leadership  
and commitment.  I would be happy to participate in such projects,  
but I don't have a clue how to get them started.

I could almost see a ransom-ware project to create a wiki for  
Transcript.  I wonder how much RunRev would kick into the bucket to  
make it happen?

Dennis

On Jul 25, 2005, at 2:36 PM, Timothy Miller wrote:

>> Dear fellow Revers,
>>
>> I use Rev every day like many of you and got stuck on something.  
>> I have a registration screen that works perfectly when the stack  
>> is modal.  When the stack is toplevel, things fall apart.  I  
>> looked up the modal command in the Rev Docs and found an answer to  
>> my question.  Modal stacks stop a script in action until the modal  
>> stack has been closed.  I did not realize this before.
>>
>> The point is, I think it is important to post once in a while how  
>> the Rev Docs do work for us.  Quite possibly, they work more for  
>> us than they fail us.  Over the years, there have been plenty of  
>> comments on how the Docs are inadequate, but few on their  
>> usefulness.  I use them every day and have a deep appreciation for  
>> their existence.  Thank you to all those involved.
>>
>> Mark Talluto
>>
>
>
> I agree with you more than you might expect, Mark. Very often, the  
> Rev docs work very well for me. It's delightful that they are  
> onboard. Heaven knows I look at them every day. They have been my  
> best teacher.
>
> But Rev is advertised as "enterprise-ware" if I'm not mistaken. In  
> theory, Rev is great for pros, great for novices, and great for do-
> it-yourself end-users, who possess a modicum of intelligence,  
> motivation and computer experience.
>
> Maybe it's fine for Pros, but it's too damned hard for everyone  
> else. The documentation presently available is the biggest  
> bottleneck, in my opinion. It still seems to me that it just  
> wouldn't be that hard or expensive to make it a whole lot better.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Tim
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
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>

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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Dan Shafer
Dan Shafer wrote:

> On Jul 25, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Timothy Miller wrote:
>> It still seems to me that it just wouldn't be that hard or  expensive
>> to make it a whole lot better
>
> > Speaking as someone who's written a few words of documentation over  the
> decades....
>
> It is a LOT harder and more expensive than you think to make it a  whole
> lot better.

Maybe there's a third way, at least to edge things forward at minimal cost.

With more than 3,000 pages of content, most of what anyone needs to get
started is in there somewhere.  It's the "somewhere", the finding of
things, that seems to be the most common problem.

Better indexing would help, but Search is only part of a complete breakfast.

I wonder to what degree simply changing the taxonomy might help people
get to what they need without restoring to Search at all?

The Dictionary is straightforward enough, but I can never seem to
confidently guess whether something is covered under Objects or Topics.
  For example, there's a topic called "Control Structures" in Objects,
even though a control structure is not an object.

A revised taxonomy could be done in just a couple days, and whether or
not it proves a panacea it would certainly be a big step forward.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Media Corporation
  __________________________________________________
  Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev
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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Dan Shafer
In reply to this post by see3d
Back in early 2002, Geoff Canyon (who hasn't been seen around these  
parts in a while) started a Rev Docs Wiki. He exported all the docs  
to an XML format as I recall and populated the Wiki with them as  
starting points. It was met with a resounding thud.

I'm sending Geoff a note to see if he's still got the original stuff  
around (the site is dead) and whether he'd be willing to share that  
as a starting point. I would be happy to step up to the plate and get  
something like this kick-started and at least help lead the effort. I  
can supply a hosting place for it. But I'm not sure this is an idea  
whose time has yet come. Would it get lots of use and update? WOuld  
RR support it in some meaningful ways?


On Jul 25, 2005, at 11:59 AM, Dennis Brown wrote:

> Tim,
>
> I have also posted in the past about the Docs merits and shortfalls  
> and also suggested a wiki like you did.  A wiki would be great for  
> fleshing out the docs in depth.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dan Shafer, Revolution Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
 From http://www.revolutionpros.com, Click "My Stuff"



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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Chipp Walters
In reply to this post by Dan Shafer
Dan Shafer wrote:

> Designing and writing good docs is nearly as hard as designing and  
> writing good software.

I beg to differ! How many software products/code libraries do you know
of which don't even have documentation. Poor Xavier and his TAOO project
is a great example, while he has told us some great ideas-- w/out *good*
documentation, it's really hard to follow... (no disrespect intended, X,
I still love you;-).

In fact, without good documentation, much software is rendered unusable.
A case might even be made that without the books authored by the '3
Dans,' Hypercard may have never been adopted so widely.

best,

Chipp

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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Eric Chatonet
Hi Dan and Chipp and...

As you might know it, all my plugins come with a bilingual help stack  
(between 200 KB and 1 MB each)
I shall only say that writing these stacks is a very hard job...  
often longer than writing the first attempt of the plugin.
But this *always* gives me the opportunity to deeply revise  
ergonomics, interface and functions.
I try to write "good and complete" docs not only for the end user  
benefit (I know that many hate the docs and never read them :-) but  
because that's essential for me to be able to provide a "good and  
complete" job :-)

Le 26 juil. 05 à 00:05, Chipp Walters a écrit :

> Dan Shafer wrote:
>
>
>> Designing and writing good docs is nearly as hard as designing  
>> and  writing good software.
>>
>
> I beg to differ! How many software products/code libraries do you  
> know of which don't even have documentation. Poor Xavier and his  
> TAOO project is a great example, while he has told us some great  
> ideas-- w/out *good* documentation, it's really hard to follow...  
> (no disrespect intended, X, I still love you;-).
>
> In fact, without good documentation, much software is rendered  
> unusable. A case might even be made that without the books authored  
> by the '3 Dans,' Hypercard may have never been adopted so widely.
>
> best,
>
> Chipp


Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.
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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

MichaelL-2
In reply to this post by Mark Talluto
Oh dear, oh dear oh dear! What is it with people and the docs? The
docs work perfectly well when you know where to look for information.
That may not always be immediately obvious, but I think that some
don't spend enough time looking at the arrangement of the information
before they claim the docs are too hard, or a bottleneck.

In Rev it is very easy to experiment with commands to see how they
work. Try it.

In Rev it is fairly easy to guess what a command might be. Just try
it out and see if it works. If it doesn't then type it into the
dictionary filter and see what comes up.

This list is part of the effective documentation of Revolution (look
up "effective" keyword in the dictionary ;-). Ask a question here and
you will generally get a useful answer.

Don't try to tell me that Rev is not good for non-professionals. This
list is full of non-professionals who are making good things with it.

Regards,
Michael Lew

At 2:29 PM -0500 25/7/05, [hidden email] wrote:

>
>But Rev is advertised as "enterprise-ware" if I'm not mistaken. In
>theory, Rev is great for pros, great for novices, and great for
>do-it-yourself end-users, who possess a modicum of intelligence,
>motivation and computer experience.
>
>Maybe it's fine for Pros, but it's too damned hard for everyone else.
>The documentation presently available is the biggest bottleneck, in
>my opinion. It still seems to me that it just wouldn't be that hard
>or expensive to make it a whole lot better.

--
Michael J. Lew

Senior Lecturer
Department of Pharmacology
The University of Melbourne
Parkville 3010
Victoria
Australia

Phone +613 8344 8304

**
New email address: [hidden email]
**
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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Charles Hartman
I agree with this -- I think it's one of the virtues of Rev, and it  
goes along with virtues of clarity in the building of GUIs and so on.  
The command write-ups are terse, but pretty clear.

I don't think most of the documentation problems have to do with  
Transcript, though maybe I'm wrong about that. I think it's the IDE  
that could use more thorough documentation. But then, I'm scraping by  
without getting Dan Schafer's book, so maybe it's just a complaint  
for the penurious & the stingy . . .

Charles Hartman

On Jul 25, 2005, at 7:30 PM, Michael J. Lew wrote:

>
> In Rev it is very easy to experiment with commands to see how they  
> work. Try it.
>
> In Rev it is fairly easy to guess what a command might be. Just try  
> it out and see if it works. If it doesn't then type it into the  
> dictionary filter and see what comes up.
>
>

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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

see3d
In reply to this post by MichaelL-2
Ok all you first graders,

You need to learn to read this semester, so I want you all to go down  
to the library and find a book on grammar, a couple from the 'See  
Spot Run" series would also be a good choice, and by all means get a  
dictionary --you will need that for the alphabet and to build up your  
knowledge of words.  Now study these to learn how to read.  Don't  
worry if it seems hard, I will be here from 8 to 5 for you to ask  
questions, and I will almost always know what to say to help your  
progress.  If I am busy with someone else just take a number and I  
will get to you shortly.  Once a week we will all come together as a  
class to learn how to sound out words.

What is that?  Why can't I teach you all at the same time instead of  
individually?  Well it is because I am so busy answering individual  
questions I don't have any time left to organize all the information  
I know into a course plan.  Hurry up now, don't waste any more of our  
time with silly questions, you need to get hunting for information or  
you will never learn to read before the semester is up!

Food for thought,

Dennis

On Jul 25, 2005, at 7:30 PM, Michael J. Lew wrote:

> Oh dear, oh dear oh dear! What is it with people and the docs? The  
> docs work perfectly well when you know where to look for  
> information. That may not always be immediately obvious, but I  
> think that some don't spend enough time looking at the arrangement  
> of the information before they claim the docs are too hard, or a  
> bottleneck.
>
> In Rev it is very easy to experiment with commands to see how they  
> work. Try it.
>
> In Rev it is fairly easy to guess what a command might be. Just try  
> it out and see if it works. If it doesn't then type it into the  
> dictionary filter and see what comes up.
>
> This list is part of the effective documentation of Revolution  
> (look up "effective" keyword in the dictionary ;-). Ask a question  
> here and you will generally get a useful answer.
>
> Don't try to tell me that Rev is not good for non-professionals.  
> This list is full of non-professionals who are making good things  
> with it.
>
> Regards,
> Michael Lew
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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Chipp Walters
Hmmm. I'm missing something. I honestly don't understand what you're
trying to say. Do you teach Transcript in a course? Is it online? Or, is
this all tongue-in-cheek? If it is I'm not sure I get your point.

Dennis Brown wrote:
> Ok all you first graders,
<snip>

> Why can't I teach you all at the same time instead of  
> individually?  Well it is because I am so busy answering individual  
> questions I don't have any time left to organize all the information  I
> know into a course plan.  
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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Judy Perry
In reply to this post by Chipp Walters
I agree with you entirely on this, Chipp.

And Rev's pretty much in the same boat as HC as opposed to, say,
Flash/Director, VB, etc. in this regard.

The average new investigator sees the product, considers buying it or
adopting it, but unlike Flash, Director, VB, ..., etc., it's not like they
are confident of the ability to hit Barnes and Noble on the way home and
pick up a little helper book or two.  They can't surf on over to
Amazon.com either.

So, what are they to do? I suspect it's not likely that they're inclined
to go looking all over etherspace to find the various (good) and scattered
information, books, e-books, tutorials, video, conference stacks, etc.
etc.  RevOnline is only usable for those already in the inner sanctum (and
those NOT on dial-up I suspect).  People ashamed of its HC descent can't
likely even bring themselves to suggest reading those old books by the
three Dan's.

Perhaps the co. should have a page that itself references where to find
all these various helper thingies... but then there'd be the problem of
appearing to endorse things that might not look sufficiently
'professional' to one audience while harbouring fears of endorsing only
those others that might look indecipherable to another target user
population.

The feeling I continually harbour in the back of my mind is that,
somewhere, there's a distinct unwillingness on the part of the company to
pay for quality tutorial materials, things that are needed by new folks
who are not going to want to pay separately for them and folks that I
can't imagine the company wishes to turn away on that account.

It may seem unfair to expect the co. to invest in this for nothing, but
if, as Norman has remarked, the software isn't minimally useful out of
the box, well, ... it doesn't speak well of the software's ability to be
adopted in the marketplace.

Judy

 On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Chipp Walters wrote:

> Dan Shafer wrote:
>
> > Designing and writing good docs is nearly as hard as designing and
> > writing good software.
>
> I beg to differ! How many software products/code libraries do you know
> of which don't even have documentation. Poor Xavier and his TAOO project
> is a great example, while he has told us some great ideas-- w/out *good*
> documentation, it's really hard to follow... (no disrespect intended, X,
> I still love you;-).
>
> In fact, without good documentation, much software is rendered unusable.
> A case might even be made that without the books authored by the '3
> Dans,' Hypercard may have never been adopted so widely.

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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

see3d
In reply to this post by Chipp Walters
Chipp,

Not tongue-in-cheek, but direct analogy.  I have seen more excuses  
for why we don't have an easy path for newbies than a porcupine has  
quills.  We don't need to excuse the state of affairs --that is just  
giving permission to keep the status quo.  We need a plan to improve  
things.

I get the distinct impression that many actually do not want to see  
the exclusive club of knowledgeable Transcript programmers expand to  
quickly by having good docs.  It almost appears to be a conflict of  
interests between professionals who want to keep the highly  
productive club small because it is their competitive advantage and  
the non-professionals who want to see the user base grow for the  
benefit of all.  Also tutorials and other tools provided by  
professionals seem to be a sort of advertising that might be lost if  
the docs were first class.

Don't get me wrong, I am very appreciative of the free and low cost  
tools and tutorials developed with much sweat and time by many on  
this list.  I also appreciate the help with questions on the list.  I  
just sense this reluctance by some --and for good reason.  A group  
effort to improve the situation will have a cost/reward ratio that is  
different and will require rethinking strategy for some.

I just want to lay this out on the table instead of leaving it half  
unsaid.

I other words, when writing a tutorial brings in business, traffic to  
the web site, reputation, accolades, etc. a lot of energy can go into  
making such contributions.  However, if a group wiki approach was  
used, would all the energy from the most knowledgeable users dry up?  
Maybe yes, maybe no.

I believe that an undertaking to improve the docs by the user  
community needs the most knowledgeable professionals to contribute.  
So we need to make sure that it is done in a way the still delivers  
much of the benefits to them of the present system.

So the question in my mind is not IF, but HOW to proceed.

Dennis


On Jul 25, 2005, at 8:37 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

> Hmmm. I'm missing something. I honestly don't understand what  
> you're trying to say. Do you teach Transcript in a course? Is it  
> online? Or, is this all tongue-in-cheek? If it is I'm not sure I  
> get your point.
>
> Dennis Brown wrote:
>
>> Ok all you first graders,
>>
> <snip>
>
>
>> Why can't I teach you all at the same time instead of  
>> individually?  Well it is because I am so busy answering  
>> individual  questions I don't have any time left to organize all  
>> the information  I know into a course plan.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>

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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Jon-3
In reply to this post by MichaelL-2
"Oh dear, oh dear oh dear! What is it with people and the docs? The docs
work perfectly well when you know where to look for information."

If I knew what a facility's name was, or even whether such a facility
existed, I would be most of the way there.  The fact is that most
newbies have no clue about any of this.  Saying the "docs work
perfectly" misses most of the point.

For me, the biggest problem I have with the docs, aside from not being
able to find things, is that when I get to a topic, there are not enough
examples to indicate exactly how a facility might be used.  Whether this
belongs in the "docs" or in something else is beside the point.  If I'm
struggling with how to use a REPEAT, I need examples.

:)

Jon


Michael J. Lew wrote:

> Oh dear, oh dear oh dear! What is it with people and the docs? The
> docs work perfectly well when you know where to look for information.
> That may not always be immediately obvious, but I think that some
> don't spend enough time looking at the arrangement of the information
> before they claim the docs are too hard, or a bottleneck.
>
> In Rev it is very easy to experiment with commands to see how they
> work. Try it.
>
> In Rev it is fairly easy to guess what a command might be. Just try it
> out and see if it works. If it doesn't then type it into the
> dictionary filter and see what comes up.
>
> This list is part of the effective documentation of Revolution (look
> up "effective" keyword in the dictionary ;-). Ask a question here and
> you will generally get a useful answer.
>
> Don't try to tell me that Rev is not good for non-professionals. This
> list is full of non-professionals who are making good things with it.
>
> Regards,
> Michael Lew
>
> At 2:29 PM -0500 25/7/05, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>>
>> But Rev is advertised as "enterprise-ware" if I'm not mistaken. In
>> theory, Rev is great for pros, great for novices, and great for
>> do-it-yourself end-users, who possess a modicum of intelligence,
>> motivation and computer experience.
>>
>> Maybe it's fine for Pros, but it's too damned hard for everyone else.
>> The documentation presently available is the biggest bottleneck, in
>> my opinion. It still seems to me that it just wouldn't be that hard
>> or expensive to make it a whole lot better.
>
>
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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Judy Perry
Judy Perry wrote:
> I suspect it's not likely that they're inclined
> to go looking all over etherspace to find the various (good) and scattered
> information, books, e-books, tutorials, video, conference stacks, etc.
> etc.

All the more reason to make sure Rev-related sites are included in the
DMOZ listing:

<http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Transcript/>

DMOZ feeds most major search engines and is the world's largest
hand-edited directory.  While no panacea, it helps folks find what
they're looking for.

>  RevOnline is only usable for those already in the inner sanctum (and
> those NOT on dial-up I suspect).

While I agree with your larger point and find little value in teaching
abstract concepts like code using concrete expressions like video, it's
worth noting for those of us who make 'net apps that broadband has
outpaced dial-up in the US and the UK.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Media Corporation
  ___________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]       http://www.FourthWorld.com
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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Judy Perry
Okay <big smile>...

and, of course, _everybody_ knows what DMOZ is, right?  Not just real
geeks?

@;-)

Judy

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> Judy Perry wrote:
> > I suspect it's not likely that they're inclined
> > to go looking all over etherspace to find the various (good) and scattered
> > information, books, e-books, tutorials, video, conference stacks, etc.
> > etc.
>
> All the more reason to make sure Rev-related sites are included in the
> DMOZ listing:
>
> <http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Transcript/>
>
> DMOZ feeds most major search engines and is the world's largest
> hand-edited directory.  While no panacea, it helps folks find what
> they're looking for.
>
> >  RevOnline is only usable for those already in the inner sanctum (and
> > those NOT on dial-up I suspect).
>
> While I agree with your larger point and find little value in teaching
> abstract concepts like code using concrete expressions like video, it's
> worth noting for those of us who make 'net apps that broadband has
> outpaced dial-up in the US and the UK.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Media Corporation
>   ___________________________________________________________
>   [hidden email]       http://www.FourthWorld.com
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>

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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Thomas McGrath III
In reply to this post by Jon-3
Jon,

But that is exactly the point. WHO will do this work and WHERE should
it be put and in What context. Rev has been slowly making the docs
better and it is still a work in progress. They are also trying the
online conference thing with attached sample stacks (which is great).
But this amount of work will definitely interfere with bug fixes and
enhancement requests at the present time. They have started to
implement a user editable area in the docs for user contribution on
specific doc items but it still needs work.

Where as a WIKI would be nice but people have already tried that and
stalled in the effort. Besides a WIKI on some ones website besides Revs
is not a good idea in the long run since that person might move or die
or whatever and the effort is then lost. So Who, What and Where are the
critical issues if this is to ever get done. It needs to be always
accessible and monitored and formatted for correctness let alone be
updated as changes are made to Transcript.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see these:
1.) Extra examples in the existing docs (from different points of view
- with different possible usages)   .
2.) Sample stacks with existing code to make these examples work.
3.) A truly 'for beginners only' tutorial for the Rev application and
interface and lastly
4.) A series of working Concept stacks that show the most integral
parts of Transcript and how it can be used.

Personally, I would like to see RevOnline expanded to host strictly
pre-formated user submitted solution stacks that have gone through
REV's seal of approval and hosted there and accessible from within Rev
itself. This would be different from the user area where the strictness
would not exist since many times that is to share a work in progress
and get feedback. The format could be 'very' close to the format used
in the online conference stacks.

So if enough volunteers are available to write/contribute to these
pre-formated stacks AND Rev is agreeable to host the space and provide
the links in the RevOnline area then we could start to work on what
types of solution/ideas are needed the most at this time. Then people
could start working on them and this might get done. Other wise it
becomes all 'talk'.

Yours,

Tom

On Jul 25, 2005, at 9:37 PM, Jon wrote:

> Whether this belongs in the "docs" or in something else is beside the
> point.  If I'm struggling with how to use a REPEAT, I need examples.


Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev
2.6


Advanced Media Group
Eagle Works Art & Sculpture
Semantic Compaction Systems
Prentke Romich Company
Prentke Romich International
SCIconics, LLC
Artist
Thomas J McGrath III
[hidden email]



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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Thomas McGrath III
P.S. And for those that don't use RevOnline because of dial-up issues
or whatever then Concept stacks could be available on a CD for purchase
like everyone else used to do.

Death by committee and hot air aside this is very doable and at this
time as well.

I for one would enjoy contributing to this because everyone on this
list has been of great help to me.

Tom

On Jul 25, 2005, at 11:02 PM, Thomas McGrath III wrote:

> Personally, I would like to see RevOnline expanded to host strictly
> pre-formated user submitted solution stacks that have gone through
> REV's seal of approval and hosted there and accessible from within Rev
> itself. This would be different from the user area where the
> strictness would not exist since many times that is to share a work in
> progress and get feedback. The format could be 'very' close to the
> format used in the online conference stacks.
>
> So if enough volunteers are available to write/contribute to these
> pre-formated stacks AND Rev is agreeable to host the space and provide
> the links in the RevOnline area then we could start to work on what
> types of solution/ideas are needed the most at this time. Then people
> could start working on them and this might get done. Other wise it
> becomes all 'talk'.


Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev
2.6


Advanced Media Group
Eagle Works Art & Sculpture
Semantic Compaction Systems
Prentke Romich Company
Prentke Romich International
SCIconics, LLC
Artist
Thomas J McGrath III
[hidden email]



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Re: Praise: Rev Documentation to the rescue

Marian Petrides, MD
In reply to this post by Judy Perry
Actually what IS DMOZ, now that you mention it.

M
On Jul 25, 2005, at 10:00 PM, Judy Perry wrote:

> Okay <big smile>...
>
> and, of course, _everybody_ knows what DMOZ is, right?  Not just real
> geeks?
>
> @;-)
>
> Judy
>
> On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>
>
>> Judy Perry wrote:
>>
>>> I suspect it's not likely that they're inclined
>>> to go looking all over etherspace to find the various (good) and  
>>> scattered
>>> information, books, e-books, tutorials, video, conference stacks,  
>>> etc.
>>> etc.
>>>
>>
>> All the more reason to make sure Rev-related sites are included in  
>> the
>> DMOZ listing:
>>
>> <http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Transcript/>
>>
>> DMOZ feeds most major search engines and is the world's largest
>> hand-edited directory.  While no panacea, it helps folks find what
>> they're looking for.
>>
>>
>>>  RevOnline is only usable for those already in the inner sanctum  
>>> (and
>>> those NOT on dial-up I suspect).
>>>
>>
>> While I agree with your larger point and find little value in  
>> teaching
>> abstract concepts like code using concrete expressions like video,  
>> it's
>> worth noting for those of us who make 'net apps that broadband has
>> outpaced dial-up in the US and the UK.
>>
>> --
>>   Richard Gaskin
>>   Fourth World Media Corporation
>>   ___________________________________________________________
>>   [hidden email]       http://www.FourthWorld.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-revolution mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
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>

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