Project Registry (was Ransomware)

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Project Registry (was Ransomware)

Paul Looney-2
Dan et al.,
     Seems there is a lot of interest in the Ransomware idea. Opinions appear
to be split between philanthropy and profit (that will work itself out).
Brian, and others, wondered if this was just a debate or whether we would actually
build something. Let's try building it:

     The first thing needed is some type of registry for proposals and bids.
So let's make that the first request.

Work requested: Build a Project Request Registry

Description: This will be a web site with functionality similar to the
current Feature Enhancement section of STSRevzilla. It will allow users to post
requests, investors to make pledges, and developers to bid on the projects. It
will also let developers post proposals and request financing. There will be a
summary page of all requests and a detail page for each request. The format of
the detail page will be similar to the one used for this request. There will
also be detail pages for each bid/quote.

Moderator for this request: Dan?/Paul?/???

Voting basis: One vote per dollar invested

Distribution of completed project: Given to Revolution Ltd. if they agree to
host it. Given to any other host if Rev. declines the gift. This work is not
intended to be sold, no profits are anticipated.

Maintenance: Developer's proposal should contain reserves for bug fixes
during the first three months this is deployed. Improvements or later bug fixes
will be handled by a separate requests.

Limit on number of investors: None

Currency used: US Dollars

Minimum contribution per investor: $10

Maximum contribution per investor: $10,000

Pledges to date:
Paul Looney, [hidden email], $100


Money collected to date:


Escrow account held at:
Escrow account number:
People with access to the escrow account:

Bids/Proposals/Quotes to date:

Changes and Amendments to Proposal (with dates amended):

Additional revenue required to start project:

Project assigned to:
Proposed completion date:
Project completed on:
Money dispersed on:

This is obviously a crude "first pass". Let's keep the ideas coming.
Paul Looney
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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

Dan Shafer
Wow.

I have to say that when I posted that first note a mere few hours  
ago, I had no idea it would catch on and become a potentially real  
project at all, let alone so rapidly.

I'm unsure about the escrow-management concept. It seems to me that  
the original idea I posted from elsewhere that the developer sets a  
fee level, begins development only when that level is reached, and  
the money goes to charity if the level isn't reached is a much  
simpler approach to administer. But I'm certainly neither the owner  
of the solution nor the arbiter of such decisions. I just think it's  
worth further debate.

dan

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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

Paul Looney-2
In reply to this post by Paul Looney-2
Dan,
Wow is the word! This has so much potential it is hard to underestimate it.

I think the escrow idea is essential (for all but the smallest projects).
People who donate money (especially large contributions) should know that they
will get it back if the project is not commenced or completed. Developers should
know there is real money in the kitty before beginning work. I've
incorporated the idea of "pledges" to give an idea of support for the request before any
money at all is committed. A developer might begin work on pledges alone if
there were enough from enough reputable people - but long projects require real
money. For smaller projects the moderator can manage the escrow account, for
larger projects there should be a third party escrow. Even with the original
idea, the money must be stored somewhere.

There are countless other details to be resolved (for instance, what happens
if contributions exceed expenses; everyone gets back a percentage of the
excess?) but we can begin with a registry (or better name/description if you've got
one).
Paul Looney
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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

John Ridge
In reply to this post by Dan Shafer
Just to say that I find this thread really intriguing.

I am absolutely not a developer - but I love the sense of freedom that I
originally got from HyperCard, and now even more from Revolution. An awful
lot of that is thanks to you developers who contribute so much via this list
and other means - for me, Revolution would not be usable without you. I want
to put something back in exchange. Possibilities -

1. I could commission software, selfishly, for myself. Hmm... What do I need
that is that big? And anyway it sounds as if you guys are not exactly short
of projects...

2. I'm glad to see that there is a market for gadgets that enhance Rev -
that looks much better, in that I am able to (a) pay for things I value that
don't distract the RunRev team from work that only they can do, on
Transcript and the engine and (b) encourage smart people to develop similar
enhancements. Eric, I know you (and others) do this admirably and abundantly
for free - how many "donations" do you get? So help me to stop feeling
guilty! Hence

3. The current proposal (in one of its many forms) is surely what I want - I
have a chance to suggest or vote for tools or whatever that I would like (so
a bit of 1.), but while I don't bear the full cost (a virtue of 2.) my
contribution is not an optional extra...

Sounds good to me. Or have I missed something?

Best wishes
John



on 20/7/05 7:49 pm,  Dan Shafer wrote :

Wow.

I have to say that when I posted that first note a mere few hours
ago, I had no idea it would catch on and become a potentially real
project at all, let alone so rapidly.

I'm unsure about the escrow-management concept. It seems to me that
the original idea I posted from elsewhere that the developer sets a
fee level, begins development only when that level is reached, and
the money goes to charity if the level isn't reached is a much
simpler approach to administer. But I'm certainly neither the owner
of the solution nor the arbiter of such decisions. I just think it's
worth further debate.

dan





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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

Dan Shafer
In reply to this post by Paul Looney-2
Paul....

I think the problem for me has come as this has escalated from a  
fairly simple approach to enabling someone who plans to develop and  
release open source/freeware to gauge the market before doing so,  
into a sort of commercial-grade bidding registry which, I agree,  
would require appropriate disposition of the proceeds of any deposits  
made on behalf of projects that never get off the ground.

Maybe there are two classes of project: free/opensource, and  
commercial, with slightly different rules and procedures for each?

Dan

On Jul 20, 2005, at 12:16 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Dan,
> Wow is the word! This has so much potential it is hard to  
> underestimate it.
>
> I think the escrow idea is essential (for all but the smallest  
> projects).
> People who donate money (especially large contributions) should  
> know that they
> will get it back if the project is not commenced or completed.  
> Developers should
> know there is real money in the kitty before beginning work. I've
> incorporated the idea of "pledges" to give an idea of support for  
> the request before any
> money at all is committed. A developer might begin work on pledges  
> alone if
> there were enough from enough reputable people - but long projects  
> require real
> money. For smaller projects the moderator can manage the escrow  
> account, for
> larger projects there should be a third party escrow. Even with the  
> original
> idea, the money must be stored somewhere.
>
> There are countless other details to be resolved (for instance,  
> what happens
> if contributions exceed expenses; everyone gets back a percentage  
> of the
> excess?) but we can begin with a registry (or better name/
> description if you've got
> one).
> Paul Looney
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>
>

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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

jbv-2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransomware

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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

mwieder
jbv-

Wednesday, July 20, 2005, 2:08:23 PM, you wrote:

j> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransomware

!!!

--
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 [hidden email]

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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

Dan Shafer
But if you follow the link in that article to slashdot, you get a  
more germane reference:

http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/02/11/23/2313213.shtml

Dan

On Jul 20, 2005, at 2:27 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> jbv-
>
> Wednesday, July 20, 2005, 2:08:23 PM, you wrote:
>
> j> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransomware
>
> !!!
>
> --
> -Mark Wieder
>  [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>
>

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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

Alex Tweedly
Dan Shafer wrote:

> But if you follow the link in that article to slashdot, you get a  
> more germane reference:
>
> http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/02/11/23/2313213.shtml
>
I think that (sadly) the fact that this discussion was 18 months ago,
and it hasn't taken off, suggests that there are enough difficulties
involved to make the transition from "cool idea to discuss" to
"completed project" a difficult one.

Doesn't mean it can't work within an active community (e.g. xtalk/Rev
users), but it's not a hopeful sign ...

--
Alex Tweedly       http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

Richard Gaskin
None of this should be needed:  according to some open source advocates,
all you have to do is release free software and suddenly your cost of
living goes to zero.

;)

--
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  Managing Editor, revJournal
  _______________________________________________________
  Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

see3d
In reply to this post by Dan Shafer
It looks to me like the basic idea of ransomware is that the  
developer takes a risk in writing the software, and puts a ransom  
price on releasing it to the public domain or a date in the future  
for release if the ransom is not met before then.  He can get his  
ransom through sales or donations.
No third parties are involved or needed in this case (except for a  
channel to pay through to make the ransom accounting legit).

However, what we have been discussing is not then technically  
ransomware.

I like what we have been discussing better --at least the version  
where a third party holds the cash up front while the app is being  
written.  That way the developer does not have to take a risk on the  
vagaries of the marketplace so his price can reflect the lower risk.  
I think it also suits the intended audience of users of Rev tools  
better.  The author also wins in that he/she gets a new tool also.  
The last two tools announced could possibly have fit into this model  
(as big projects).

Dennis

On Jul 20, 2005, at 5:46 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:

> But if you follow the link in that article to slashdot, you get a  
> more germane reference:
>
> http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/02/11/23/2313213.shtml
>
> Dan
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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

Dan Shafer
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
Damn, I *knew* I was doing something wrong.

You have to *release* the stuff, eh?

Go figure.

:-D

Dan

On Jul 20, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> None of this should be needed:  according to some open source  
> advocates, all you have to do is release free software and suddenly  
> your cost of living goes to zero.
>
> ;)
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Managing Editor, revJournal
>  _______________________________________________________
>  Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
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> subscription preferences:
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>
>

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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

Paul Looney-2
In reply to this post by Paul Looney-2
Dan,
     Between your letter and this reply, Dennis wrote a better answer than I
could have. Yes, we are talking about something beyond Ransomeware.
     I think you and I are looking at this from two different perspectives -
which is good. You are looking out for the developer's interests, I am looking
at this as an investor. From an investor's perspective ransomeware has
problems:
     1. Any money you put into it is gone. You may or may not get your
product. You may or may not like the charity to which you have donated. You have no
chance to reinvest the money in another product - or the same product with a
different developer.
     2. There is no mechanism (e.g., a moderator) to make the inevitable
adjustments that occur in any sizable project.
     3. Not only is there no escrow, there is no real money. This makes it
hard to encourage serious developers.
     4. The ransom model seems to be geared toward helping developers with
ideas find investors. This is good. But the escrow model equally encourages
investors to find developers for their ideas.

     The escrow model IS more complicated but the structure benefits everyone
on both sides of the process - and it scales much better than the ransom
model, accommodating all but the largest and most complicated projects.
     The end product from the escrow model can be either open source or
commercial - this must be disclosed at the beginning of any request. Ransomeware
does not (as I view it) lend itself to commercial products.

     Both methods need a Registry (or some other means of communication
between investors and developers). I have pledged $100 to start building this
registry. Since there is no registry until the registry is built, I volunteer to
keep a list of pledges and will find a trusted third party to hold actual funds
if we get that far in this experiment.
Paul Looney
     
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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

david bovill
In reply to this post by Paul Looney-2
>
Dan wrote:

> Paul....
>
> I think the problem for me has come as this has escalated from a
> fairly simple approach to enabling someone who plans to develop and
> release open source/freeware to gauge the market before doing so, into
> a sort of commercial-grade bidding registry which, I agree, would
> require appropriate disposition of the proceeds of any deposits made
> on behalf of projects that never get off the ground.
>
> Maybe there are two classes of project: free/opensource, and
> commercial, with slightly different rules and procedures for each?
>
> Dan


They are part of a continuum. The legal and technical framework needs
to be flexible enough so that projects that start "just for fun" can
scale to fully commercial projects without anyone feeling "ripped off".
So yes "slightly different rules and procedures for each" - and these
should be negotiated on a project by project basis - the approach we
take is to issue a secure digital currency based on a legal contract
("Ricardian contract") which is a flexible enough legal instrument to
encompass most forms of collaborative work.

One such currency which we have been working on we call "shards" -
these are like shares but with a different legal basis - in simple
terms they represent a "proportional share in revenue" (not profit).
They can be issued in return for cash investment or development (in
kind investment), or project management etc.

A currency like this can be issued for each project with the ability to
customise the contract associated with the currency or just accept a
standard (tested) contract. The hard part has been to get all this
legally robust.

If this sounds not applicable to not-for-profit ventures... then this
is simply a question of language. If there is not revenue from a
project - and the investors / stake holders choose to pursue such a
path, then the shards have no commercial value - perhaps they acts as
"votes". If there ever is any commercial value in the future - then
everyone knows where they stand and this is legally binding in court.


On 20 Jul 2005, at 19:58, [hidden email] wrote:

>
> Work requested: Build a Project Request Registry
>
> Description: This will be a web site with functionality similar to the
> current Feature Enhancement section of STSRevzilla. It will allow
> users to post
> requests, investors to make pledges, and developers to bid on the
> projects. It
> will also let developers post proposals and request financing. There
> will be a
> summary page of all requests and a detail page for each request. The
> format of
> the detail page will be similar to the one used for this request.
> There will
> also be detail pages for each bid/quote.

I like this - I would propose building into this two simple ideas from
Scum / Agile Development - "Product Backcatalog" and "Sprint
Backlog"... this would allow features to be requested, ranked and time
/ costs allocated + project progress tracked.

>
> Moderator for this request: Dan?/Paul?/???
>
> Voting basis: One vote per dollar invested

Votes and how they are related to project management and investment is
a complicated issue. I would not however go with this proposed basis -
there are other stakeholders other than just cash investors.

>
> Distribution of completed project: Given to Revolution Ltd. if they
> agree to
> host it. Given to any other host if Rev. declines the gift. This work
> is not
> intended to be sold, no profits are anticipated.

I'd propose that the project be open sourced - LGPL or whatever (not
GPL)... unless a significant investor wished the project to be sold as
a closed source component.

>
> Maintenance: Developer's proposal should contain reserves for bug fixes
> during the first three months this is deployed. Improvements or later
> bug fixes
> will be handled by a separate requests.
>
> Limit on number of investors: None

Can be. Project management?

>
> Currency used: US Dollars
>
> Minimum contribution per investor: $10
>
> Maximum contribution per investor: $10,000

OK by me  - but not really needed.

>
> Pledges to date:
> Paul Looney, [hidden email], $100

David Bovill - Open Partnership - $200 + 100 hours development time
(requirement Product Backcatalog stuff)

>
>
> Money collected to date:
>
>
> Escrow account held at:
> Escrow account number:
> People with access to the escrow account:
>
> Bids/Proposals/Quotes to date:
>
> Changes and Amendments to Proposal (with dates amended):

According to membership rules.

>
> Additional revenue required to start project:
>
> Project assigned to:

Project Managment

> Proposed completion date:

Not required - estimated development time tracked using Sprint Backlog
graph....

> Project completed on:
> Money dispersed on:
>
> This is obviously a crude "first pass". Let's keep the ideas coming.
> Paul Looney
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Project Registry (was Ransomware)

John Ridge
In reply to this post by Paul Looney-2
on 21/7/05 12:23 am,  [hidden email] wrote :

<snip>
    Both methods need a Registry (or some other means of communication
between investors and developers). I have pledged $100 to start building
this
registry. Since there is no registry until the registry is built, I
volunteer to
keep a list of pledges and will find a trusted third party to hold actual
funds
if we get that far in this experiment.
Paul Looney
   

**********************************************

Paul, if it's any help I'd like to make a $100 pledge also - payment
presumably via PayPal?

Best wishes
John
--


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