Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

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Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Richmond Mathewson-2
  People who just want the list of RunRev features not available in the
Linux version
can "cut the crap" by scrolling down to the bottom of this message.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After a heavy hint from Peter Alcibiades, and being a bit 'fried'
having had to lecture at the local University for Saturday and Sunday
on 2 marathon 7/8 hour lecture sessions to extra-mural students
(most of them were completely "off the wall" by the time I'd finished
with them)
on semantic, grammatical and morphological change (talk about
bu**ering up one's weekend) and a certain embarrass de richesse
in connexion with work on my Devawriter Pro (plug, plug, shameless
plug; coming soon, watch this space) I thought I would try my sweaty
paws at data-mining.

So; downloaded BvG's 'Bvg Docu' stack - nifty number that sucked those
clotted rev files like a lamia feasting on a half-rotted corpse and spewed
out the xml files like a Glaswegian after a night on the town; heavy!

Then mucked around with a stack to chew its way through those xml files
and spot for those that didn't have:

<unix support="true"

in them

and while I'm being campy and 'artistic' I will wonder "out loud" why the
good folks at RunRev have conflated UNIX with Linux; guaranteed to rub
2 lots of people up the wrong way . . .   :) Almost as bad as mixing
Microsoft DOS up with FreeDOS . . . pass me the mouthwash Dr Watson.

and Bingo (OK, OK, I'm a creepy kinda guy; I embedded a sound file that
goes "Bingo" on script completion), out comes a list of all the
multifarious facets / aspects (call them what you will) of RunRev that work
on Macintosh or Windows (that is an inclusive OR for you logicians out
there) and DO NOT work on Linux.

It is a long list; in fact it is probably so long that the Use-lIst will
spit back
my message as over-quota if I append it here . . .  :(

I am actually writing this as the stack does the chewing because it
looks as though
it is developing ulcers or acute colitis.

Um . . . my temperature gauge on my G4 is goimg up alarmingly; I wonder why?

Now; BvG's wonderful stack disgorged 1,624 xml files and an index file;
however, my
"Chewer" keeps getting stuck at file 1507 . . .

Oh, Gosh, Richmond has found another devil in the machine.

Well, maybe; but I am more interested in the results of the data-mining so
I am going to have to FORCE QUIT RunRev (curses, all my results go down
the tubes)
and divide BvG's XML files up into 2 folders and do them all over again.

Wow; duplicated the 'BvG Docu' folder twice; naming the first 'BvG Part
1' and
the second 'BvG Part 2'; then tried to delete 818 files from the first
and the G4
went 'all stroppy' . . .

Um' same again with 'Part 2' - somebody 'out there' tell me that there
is a computer
that doesn't throw a tantrum on being asked to move buckets of files to
the trash.

Now this is bad news: I have just sent off for permission to download the
The Brooklyn-Geneva-Amsterdam-Helsinki Parsed Corpus of Old English, which
is a 'stinker' of a set of files. Why? Because I want to go
a-data-mining on behalf
of my wife who is looking at a fairly bizarre semantic shift associated
with "WITH";
where it moved from meaning 'against' to its current meaning, displacing the
Germanic word "MED". If RunRev baulks (Aaah; what a lovely verb) at 1500
files things are going to get pretty sticky; and there I was thinking
that RunRev
as a data-miner would probably be a better thing than the rather
primitive and
distinctly unattractive Java 'thing' the corpus linguistics people at
Penn Sate
put out.

Oh, No; now the thing has "sce**d up" on the .DS files. Why? Why?

One wonders why copying a directory / folder and deleting half its contents
generates a .DS file; and why they choke RunRev. Actually, I've had problems
with .DS files elsewhere.

Cracked open 3011.xml (1507th XML file) with TextWrangler: nothing obvious
to stop RunRev in it tracks . . . Later; much later; obviously something
very odd
indeed about 3011.xml: on setting the 'Chewer' to chew from file number 1507
the thing seized up; on setting it to run from 1508 it ran perfectly
normally.

Humpf: bunged a 'save this stack' in one of the repeat loops, so even if
I do have to force
quit RunRev not everything will be lost.

Blast; still got stuck at file 1507. Just had a look and RunRev isn't
using much memory
(2.7 MB RAM and about 600 MB virtual on a machine with 2GB RAM), but it
pushes
the temperature up something rotten.

Finished, at last; there are 204 things listed; so they can be
downloaded here:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://andregarzia.on-rev.com/richmond/STUFF/RR non-Linux.txt

I'm off to bed. sincerely, Richmond.
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

J. Landman Gay
Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> Then mucked around with a stack to chew its way through those xml files
> and spot for those that didn't have:
>
> <unix support="true"
>
> in them

Did you also remove all the commands that are OS-specific and don't
apply to Linux?

--
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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Graham & Heather Harrison
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> One wonders why copying a directory / folder and deleting half its contents
> generates a .DS file; and why they choke RunRev. Actually, I've had problems
> with .DS files elsewhere.

Start here and follow the links: http://rixstep.com/2/20091027,00.shtml


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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

mwieder
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
Richmond-

Monday, April 26, 2010, 11:56:47 AM, you wrote:

<lots of stuff>
> the temperature up something rotten.

> Finished, at last; there are 204 things listed; so they can be
> downloaded here:

</lots of stuff>

To start with, it's considered bad form to have a space embedded in a
url. Especially without urlencoding it so that the url is unusable.

Second, I think your algorithm needs a bit of work: you've got several
synonyms listed, so that ups the count by quite a bit (XBrowser_Init
as well as revBrowserInit, for instance); also you've got reserved
words like "redo" that are not implemented in *any* platform. Thirdly
single-platform items like the multiple COM port listings are a cheap
shot, IMO - a single listing instead of 9 would have done the job
nicely. Another example would be single-platform commands like
getResource (or the COM ports, for that matter). And then there are
the commands that are there for Hypercard compatibility only, and
which have no real meaning on any platform: markChar, soundChannel,
etc.

Should I bemoan the lack of "hideConsoleWindows" on OSX?

But it's a useful list for several things: I've never noticed mnemonic
before.

And I look forward to the real listing.

--
-Mark Wieder
 [hidden email]

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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Alejandro Tejada
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
Hi Jacque,

J. Landman Gay wrote
Did you also remove all the commands that are OS-specific and don't
apply to Linux?

Jacqueline Landman Gay
Richmond do not remove Mac and Windows
specific commands like:
dontUseQT (and everything Quicktime related)
menubar (MacOs specific)
appleEvent (idem)
MCISendString (Windows specific)
setRegistry (idem)
and commands that actually
works in Linux like:
go
http://docs.runrev.com/Command/go

Interesting enough, consulting the online
dictionary, i just noticed that some entries
are unchanged from previous versions and
do not reflect actual version.
For example, Mac Only ink effects are
available for Windows users, but the
dictionary does not specify this.

Alejandro
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
  On 26/04/2010 23:09, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>
>> Then mucked around with a stack to chew its way through those xml files
>> and spot for those that didn't have:
>>
>> <unix support="true"
>>
>> in them
>
> Did you also remove all the commands that are OS-specific and don't
> apply to Linux?
>
No.
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining . . .

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Alejandro Tejada
  On 27/04/2010 04:25, Alejandro Tejada wrote:
> Interesting enough, consulting the online
> dictionary, i just noticed that some entries
> are unchanged from previous versions and
> do not reflect actual version.
> For example, Mac Only ink effects are
> available for Windows users, but the
> dictionary does not specify this.
>
>
Technical 'guff' is in the second half of this
posting. The 'wibble' comes first.
--------------------------------------------
The biggest problem is that the Dictionary is
not entirely consistent.

[Had you read the first paragraph of my
'Richmond goes bonkers because he didn't
have a rest over the weekend' text, you
would have realised that this was more an
attempt at a start than to produce canon
law]

My "data-mining" was fairly crude; and most
of the criticisms levelled against the results are
perfectly justified.

It is, HOWEVER, high time there was a proper
3 column list so that folk who want/need to
develop something that will work on 2 or
more platforms can work out 'what is what'.

Searching through the Documentation for
each term is incredibly time-consuming; and
with the knowledge that it is not entirely
accurate one begins to think about The
Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy.

I suspect that the only people who can supply us
with such a list, which would be completely
reliable, not contain redundancies and
repetitions, and would stand up to all the
criticisms that have been levelled against my
list, are the RunRev folk themselves.

I would mention Klaus, but he is a bit bogged
down at present and doesn't need another thing
on his plate.

------------------------------------------------

Cracking open a few of the XML files with TextWrangler I noticed
that most of them contained this:

<macos support="true" />
<osx support="true" />
<win32 support="true" />
<unix support="true" />

('twas not me that put empty spaces in there me hearties)

where the flag "true" could also be "false"

so I thought I would just filter for <unix support="false" />
until I noticed that some of the files had this:

<introduced version="1.0" />
<win32 support="true" />
<class>Desktop, Server and Web</class>

(all a bit inconsistent)  so I did this:

if fld "EXEMEL" contains "unix support=" & quote & "true" then
       --do nix--
    else
      SHOVE THE DETAILS INTO THE OUTPUT FIELD
    end if

where fld "EXEMEL" contains the text of the XML file that is being examined.
[SHOVE is not a recognised RunRev term on any platform . . .  :) ]
--------------------------------------------------

If anyone suddenly sees a bright, shining light, they are welcome to
contact me for a copy of my stack to improve or otherwise
mess around with.

My "Revolutionary  Therapy" is now concluded and I shall return to
work on my Devawriter 'Pro' without further ado.

sincerely, Richmond Mathewson.
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining . . .

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Graham & Heather Harrison
  On 27/04/2010 03:04, Graham & Heather Harrison wrote:
> Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>
>> One wonders why copying a directory / folder and deleting half its contents
>> generates a .DS file; and why they choke RunRev. Actually, I've had problems
>> with .DS files elsewhere.
> Start here and follow the links: http://rixstep.com/2/20091027,00.shtml
>
>
> _______________________________________________

Thank you very much; that should be quite a help.

sincerely, Richmond.
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Peter Alcibiades
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
Its a real start.  It seems unlikely to have left out anything significant, but it obviously has quite some false positives, but when the thing is winnowed down to a couple of hundred, one can go through by hand and knock off the ones that don't apply.

I wish I still had half Richmond's energy!  I'll take a look today and tomorrow, but fear that by the time I get through he'll have done it over several times.

The reason time goes so much faster as we get older, is that we slow down so much.....

Peter
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Peter Alcibiades
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
I've got through about 20 entries, and have a splitting headache from using the Rev dictionary with its 4 point font.  How on earth does this manage to be approved for use in the public sector in the UK?  Has no-one noticed yet?  So I will have to resume in a bit using either the web version or will reset the monitor resolution.

There's a lot of winnowing out to do.  The dictionary classifications are not consistent, see for instance the treatment of hotspot(s).  Some stuff is indeed OS specific.  Some stuff is non-functional and only included not to throw errors when people use Hypercard commands.  So it will be a lot smaller list when its done.  There is also stuff included for Linux that does not in fact work' like the printing and font stuff.  All the same, it is going to throw up large functionality areas that are missing, and have been for a long time, as in the speech stuff.  

So its worth doing, and Richmond done good to make a start.
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining . . .

Richmond Mathewson-2
  On 27/04/2010 10:07, Peter Alcibiades wrote:
> I've got through about 20 entries, and have a splitting headache from using
> the Rev dictionary with its 4 point font.

Well; until somebody "pulls their finger out" back at HQ re fonts on Linux
I suggest you use Björnke von Gierke's super BvG Docu stack as you can
change the font size to suit your needs and avoid the cluster headaches:

http://www.bjoernke.com/?target=bvgdocu
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by Peter Alcibiades
Peter Alcibiades wrote:

> So its worth doing, and Richmond done good to make a start.

I made a list last night and will post it later today. There are some
errors that the list can correct, but for the most part I think it is
accurate.

--
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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Richmond Mathewson-2
  On 27/04/2010 18:17, J. Landman Gay wrote:
> Peter Alcibiades wrote:
>
>> So its worth doing, and Richmond done good to make a start.
>
> I made a list last night and will post it later today. There are some
> errors that the list can correct, but for the most part I think it is
> accurate.
>

Can you tell me how you did it? I have a feeling the way I went about it was
extremely and unnecessarily long-winded.
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Björnke von Gierke
On 27 Apr 2010, at 17:46, Richmond Mathewson wrote:

>  I have a feeling the way I went about it was
> extremely and unnecessarily long-winded.


Yes.

My stack loads all the docu stacks into memory, and _tries_ to unload them again. However, that fails sometimes, due to the build in docu using the stacks etc. So maybe the big resource usage you mentioned in the orignal mail, could be due to that.

Also, make sure to not put all the xml into one field and then parse that. That would be very resource intensive! Instead, load one file, parse it, then replace it with the next file, etc.

You could have used my library to access the values of the xml files, using something similar to (see below). Tho, depending on the way you read the xml yourself, your approach could be faster, as I am using the external to read the whole xml into customproperties (and it probably was simpler anyway, as you didn't need to learn how my stuff actually works).

I'm sure you had fun
Bjoernke

PS is code:

on mouseUp --untested
  repeat for each line theLine in field "list" of stack "BvG docu"
    send "docsLibContent" && theLine to stack "docsLib by BvG"
    if the result <> true then
      put the result
      exit repeat
    end if
    if the content["unix"] of stack "docsLib by BvG" ) = true then
      put theLine & return after UnixCompatibles
    end if
  end repeat
  put unixCompatibles
end mouseUp

--

official ChatRev page:
http://bjoernke.com?target=chatrev

Chat with other RunRev developers:
go stack URL "http://bjoernke.com/chatrev/chatrev1.3b3.rev"

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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Richmond Mathewson-2
  On 27/04/2010 19:02, Björnke von Gierke wrote:
> On 27 Apr 2010, at 17:46, Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>
>>   I have a feeling the way I went about it was
>> extremely and unnecessarily long-winded.
>
> Yes.
>
> My stack loads all the docu stacks into memory, and _tries_ to unload them again. However, that fails sometimes, due to the build in docu using the stacks etc. So maybe the big resource usage you mentioned in the orignal mail, could be due to that.

I loaded each XML file individually.

My "long-winded" referred to my code:

on mouseUp
    put empty into fld "FLIST"
    answer folder "Choose a folder to process"
    set the defaultFolder to it
    put " " into PropName3
    put the files into fld "FileList"
    wait 40 ticks
    ----------------------------
    put "fish" into PhileName
    put "fish" into fld "PhileName"
    put 1507 into KOUNT
    put KOUNT into fld "KOUNT"
    put 1 into XOUNT
    wait 40 ticks
    ----------------------------
    repeat until PhileName contains "index"
       add 1 to KOUNT
       put KOUNT into fld "KOUNT"
       put line KOUNT of fld "FileList" into PhileName
       put line KOUNT of fld "FileList" into fld "PhileName"
       wait 40 ticks
       if PhileName contains "index" then
          exit repeat
       else
          set the useUnicode to true
       set the RTFText of fld "EXEMEL" to URL ("file:" & PhileName)
       put line 1 of fld "EXEMEL" into PropName1
       repeat with KK = 1 to 13
       delete the first char of PropName1
    end repeat
      repeat
       put the first char of PropName1 into PropName2
       if PropName2 contains "<" then
          exit repeat
       else
          put PropName3 & PropName2 into PropName3
       end if
        delete the first char of PropName1
    end repeat
       put PropName3 into line KOUNT of fld "PropName"
    if fld "EXEMEL" contains "unix support=" & quote & "true" then
       --do nix--
    else
       add 1 to XOUNT
       put PropName3 into line XOUNT of fld "FLIST"
       --put PropName3 && PhileName into line XOUNT of fld "FLIST"
       save this stack
    end if
    put " " into PropName3
    end if
    end repeat
    -----------------
end mouseUp

fairly pedestrian, nicht?

not the freezing of the RunRev IDE - that was clearly something to do
with file 1507 ( = 3011.xml)
gumming up the works; as I don't pretend to understand XML I won't
attempt any solutions to that
one.
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>  On 27/04/2010 18:17, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>> Peter Alcibiades wrote:
>>
>>> So its worth doing, and Richmond done good to make a start.
>>
>> I made a list last night and will post it later today. There are some
>> errors that the list can correct, but for the most part I think it is
>> accurate.

I've now double-checked some of the things I wasn't sure of, and I think
my list is pretty accurate now.


> Can you tell me how you did it? I have a feeling the way I went about it
> was
> extremely and unnecessarily long-winded.

I extracted the dictionary entries by reading the custom properties from
the doc clumps (the dictionary builder that ships with the MC IDE does
this, so I just modified that script a bit.) Once I had a complete list
of all 1600+ entries, I used BBEdit and grep to remove or extract
various combinations of platform support.

I first removed from the list all entries that were available on all
platforms, leaving only those that had at least one platform missing. I
also removed entries where the dictionary is wrong (for example, all
inks are fully cross-platform now but the dictionary hasn't been
updated.) I also removed all synonyms (mostly the XBrowser references)
and all instances of "COM:" except for the first one.

What I found when I was done was that the only tokens that Linux does
not support fall into three basic categories: browser xcmd,
quicktime-related, and things the OS itself does not support. I also
found 32 Linux-only commands unique to that OS which no other platforms
support. There are Linux/OS X commands that Windows does not support.
There are 16 Windows-only tokens that don't apply to any other OS. And
so forth.

The results are here: <http://jacque.on-rev.com/codebits/tokens.txt>. It
looks to me like linux support is well-balanced, and that every OS has a
good number of platform-specific tokens that can't possibly be applied
elsewhere.

--
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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Richmond Mathewson-2
  On 27/04/2010 21:10, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>>  On 27/04/2010 18:17, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>>> Peter Alcibiades wrote:
>>>
>>>> So its worth doing, and Richmond done good to make a start.
>>>
>>> I made a list last night and will post it later today. There are
>>> some errors that the list can correct, but for the most part I think
>>> it is accurate.
>
> I've now double-checked some of the things I wasn't sure of, and I
> think my list is pretty accurate now.
>
>
>> Can you tell me how you did it? I have a feeling the way I went about
>> it was
>> extremely and unnecessarily long-winded.
>
> I extracted the dictionary entries by reading the custom properties
> from the doc clumps (the dictionary builder that ships with the MC IDE
> does this, so I just modified that script a bit.) Once I had a
> complete list of all 1600+ entries, I used BBEdit and grep to remove
> or extract various combinations of platform support.
>
> I first removed from the list all entries that were available on all
> platforms, leaving only those that had at least one platform missing.
> I also removed entries where the dictionary is wrong (for example, all
> inks are fully cross-platform now but the dictionary hasn't been
> updated.) I also removed all synonyms (mostly the XBrowser references)
> and all instances of "COM:" except for the first one.
>
> What I found when I was done was that the only tokens that Linux does
> not support fall into three basic categories: browser xcmd,
> quicktime-related, and things the OS itself does not support. I also
> found 32 Linux-only commands unique to that OS which no other
> platforms support. There are Linux/OS X commands that Windows does not
> support. There are 16 Windows-only tokens that don't apply to any
> other OS. And so forth.
>
> The results are here: <http://jacque.on-rev.com/codebits/tokens.txt>.
> It looks to me like linux support is well-balanced, and that every OS
> has a good number of platform-specific tokens that can't possibly be
> applied elsewhere.
>
Much, much better than my effort: Thank you very much.
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
J. Landman Gay wrote:

> What I found when I was done was that the only tokens that Linux does
> not support fall into three basic categories: browser xcmd,
> quicktime-related, and things the OS itself does not support.

I should have added speech support to that too. So, four categories.

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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

Richmond Mathewson-2
  On 27/04/2010 21:33, J. Landman Gay wrote:
> J. Landman Gay wrote:
>
>> What I found when I was done was that the only tokens that Linux does
>> not support fall into three basic categories: browser xcmd,
>> quicktime-related, and things the OS itself does not support.
>
> I should have added speech support to that too. So, four categories.
>

What this does not include is the fairly significant font detection and
printing problems that are, by now,
well-documented.
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Re: Richmond goes data-mining (a.k.a. shovelling through the sh..)

J. Landman Gay
Richmond Mathewson wrote:

>  On 27/04/2010 21:33, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>> J. Landman Gay wrote:
>>
>>> What I found when I was done was that the only tokens that Linux does
>>> not support fall into three basic categories: browser xcmd,
>>> quicktime-related, and things the OS itself does not support.
>>
>> I should have added speech support to that too. So, four categories.
>>
>
> What this does not include is the fairly significant font detection and
> printing problems that are, by now,
> well-documented.

You were asking for supported tokens in the language, so that's what the
list includes. I just noticed a couple of entries that are now fully
cross-platform, so I removed them and updated the text file a moment
ago. <http://jacque.on-rev.com/codebits/tokens.txt>

BTW, while checking with one of the engineers this morning about
cross-platform inks, I asked about the font issue. He said it doesn't
occur on his machine (nor does it on my Ubuntu installation) so he's not
sure what's going on with that. He mentioned that users should ensure
they have the right fonts installed, but I think you've already done
that. The last time I worked with someone who had the problem it turned
out to be their font manager, but I don't know enough about it to expand
on that. He updated his copy and the problem went away.

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Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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