Stacks whose names start with "rev"

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Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Some of my client's stacks must begin with names starting with "rev"
(i.e., Bible study, "Revelations".) This of course wreaks havoc in the
IDE, aside from just omitting the stacks from file lists. We have tried
setting gRevDevelopment to true and turning on the option to view IDE
stacks, but lots of other things still fail. Objects can't be selected
with the edit tool and other oddities occur that make the stacks uneditable.

Temporarily renaming the stack sometimes works, but throws errors all
over the place when scripts try to navigate or use the long ID for other
purposes.

But now something else is occuring, totally unintelligible. Normally two
stacks are open, an index stack "TSMain" and a mainstack "Revelations".
When trying to navigate to Revelations by any method -- opening it from
Finder, clicking the name in the index stack, etc. -- this error is thrown:

"A stack with the same name as the one you are trying to load is already
open. Before loading
  /Users/<name>/Documents/<product>/Revelations.livecode what do you
want to do with stack
  /Users/<name>/Documents/<product>/TSMain.livecode, TSMain?"

Besides the issue that the two "conflicting" stacks do not have the same
name, the TSMain stack is listed twice, once as a full file path
followed by the short name.

Huh? This is under LC 9.0.1 but also happens in LC 8.

How would you manage working with a stack whose name starts with "rev"?
We are planning to change the name somehow if we can think of a good
substitute, but for now it needs to stay as-is. And what's the deal with
the weird conflict message? There are no duplicate stacks in RAM.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Jacque.

Can you include an invisible, unprintable char between the "R" and the "E"?

Then the file name would appear to read as "rev" but would actually be "re"
& funnyChar & "v".

There are several such chars in the standard ASCII set.

Craig



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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
what if the filename and the stack name are different?

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 3:23 PM dunbarxx via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jacque.
>
> Can you include an invisible, unprintable char between the "R" and the "E"?
>
> Then the file name would appear to read as "rev" but would actually be "re"
> & funnyChar & "v".
>
> There are several such chars in the standard ASCII set.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I hurriedly put the funnyChar in the wrong place. I know you get this,
assuming it is at all possible.

But for my own curiosity, would this work? You would have to explcitly
manage the pathNames as:

"re" & numToChar(funnyChar) & "v". The question is, assuming you can make
this work, is will the several OS's bark at all?

Craig



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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode


> 27. sep. 2018 kl. 21:08 skrev J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <[hidden email]>:
>
> Some of my client's stacks must begin with names starting with "rev" (i.e., Bible study, "Revelations".)

Why does the stack itself need to be called «Revelations»? Could it be a word around just to set the title of the stack to «Revelations» ? Then the stack name can be something that does not conflict with the IDE.

Tore Nilsen
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
How about preceding the name with OT_ or NT_?

Bob S


> On Sep 27, 2018, at 12:08 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Some of my client's stacks must begin with names starting with "rev" (i.e., Bible study, "Revelations".) This of course wreaks havoc in the IDE, aside from just omitting the stacks from file lists. We have tried setting gRevDevelopment to true and turning on the option to view IDE stacks, but lots of other things still fail. Objects can't be selected with the edit tool and other oddities occur that make the stacks uneditable.
>
> Temporarily renaming the stack sometimes works, but throws errors all over the place when scripts try to navigate or use the long ID for other purposes.
>
> But now something else is occuring, totally unintelligible. Normally two stacks are open, an index stack "TSMain" and a mainstack "Revelations". When trying to navigate to Revelations by any method -- opening it from Finder, clicking the name in the index stack, etc. -- this error is thrown:
>
> "A stack with the same name as the one you are trying to load is already open. Before loading
> /Users/<name>/Documents/<product>/Revelations.livecode what do you want to do with stack
> /Users/<name>/Documents/<product>/TSMain.livecode, TSMain?"
>
> Besides the issue that the two "conflicting" stacks do not have the same name, the TSMain stack is listed twice, once as a full file path followed by the short name.
>
> Huh? This is under LC 9.0.1 but also happens in LC 8.
>
> How would you manage working with a stack whose name starts with "rev"? We are planning to change the name somehow if we can think of a good substitute, but for now it needs to stay as-is. And what's the deal with the weird conflict message? There are no duplicate stacks in RAM.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
You could name it "com.livecode.palette.autocomplete.completions" - that
doesn't start with "rev" so I'm sure it'll be completely safe. ;)

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 9/27/18 2:56 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> You could name it "com.livecode.palette.autocomplete.completions" - that
> doesn't start with "rev" so I'm sure it'll be completely safe. ;)
>

That should fix it. ;) Next we should discuss the company's product line
which starts with the word "Revealing"...except so far that doesn't
interfere with anything.

All suggestions so far are to rename the stack. We actually tried naming
it "ABCDEFG" and it still misbehaved. I think if we'd saved it to disk
and then restarted everything it probably would have worked, and that's
likely what we'll do next time. The message box works so we were setting
properties that way.

The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of
places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups,
etc.) and I'd have to add exceptions everywhere to accomodate just a
couple of problem names. We only want to do an occasional edit without
upsetting the whole IDE.

But my main question is about that totally odd error messages claiming a
conflict between two open stacks that don't even have the same name (or
filename, which shouldn't matter anyway.) That's just bizarre.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 09/27/2018 03:47 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

> The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
> multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of
> places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups,

Really really really a bad idea.
I'm sure you knew that already, but I want to say it again.
That's really really really a bad idea.

One of the prime tenets of database design is that you shouldn't use
actual data to link items together. Else you get into maintenance
nightmares and things fall apart when you get unexpected data, etc.

I hate to say you should rethink the design, but you should probably
rethink the design.

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  [hidden email]

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Hmmm... If she means that she has links or buttons that navigate to various stacks and cards, I'm not sure how else she could do it. I suppose setting properties or constants in scripts might work. But you cannot get around the fact that when navigating to what amounts to a form, it needs to be a hard reference somehow.

Bob S


> On Sep 27, 2018, at 16:12 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups,
>
> Really really really a bad idea.
> I'm sure you knew that already, but I want to say it again.
> That's really really really a bad idea.
>
> One of the prime tenets of database design is that you shouldn't use actual data to link items together. Else you get into maintenance nightmares and things fall apart when you get unexpected data, etc.
>
> I hate to say you should rethink the design, but you should probably rethink the design.
>
> --
> Mark Wieder


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Jacque.

Do you remember I had this same issue (thread in the forums) about two
months ago? All the "destroy" stuff in the world did not prevent that dialog
from coming up. It never caused a problem, only a nuisance.

And oddly, though it occurred continuously over the better part of a year,
it has not come up in the last month or so. I had actually forgotten about
it.

Craig



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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 09/27/2018 04:26 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> Hmmm... If she means that she has links or buttons that navigate to various stacks and cards, I'm not sure how else she could do it. I suppose setting properties or constants in scripts might work. But you cannot get around the fact that when navigating to what amounts to a form, it needs to be a hard reference somehow.

Sure it does. But the stacks could be named "One,Two,Three" or
"Vera,Chuck,Dave" or "Curly,Moe,Shemp" or whatever. They don't have to
be significant data points.

--
  Mark Wieder
  [hidden email]

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Hi Mark,

Couldn't agree more.

I name my stacks stkName, stkOthernMe cards are crdName etc  fields used
for lists are lstName - Got used to that using foxpro.
One way out of this is without having to rewrite everything, is rename the
stacks with stkRev (for instance) and wherever there is a display of the
name needed instead of "display" "StkName"
it displays FixName("stkName") where fixname returns the stack name without
the "stk" prefix

Lagi

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 at 00:13, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 09/27/2018 03:47 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
> > multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of
> > places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups,
>
> Really really really a bad idea.
> I'm sure you knew that already, but I want to say it again.
> That's really really really a bad idea.
>
> One of the prime tenets of database design is that you shouldn't use
> actual data to link items together. Else you get into maintenance
> nightmares and things fall apart when you get unexpected data, etc.
>
> I hate to say you should rethink the design, but you should probably
> rethink the design.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Oh I see your point!

Bob S


> On Sep 27, 2018, at 23:22 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hmmm... If she means that she has links or buttons that navigate to various stacks and cards, I'm not sure how else she could do it. I suppose setting properties or constants in scripts might work. But you cannot get around the fact that when navigating to what amounts to a form, it needs to be a hard reference somehow.
>
> Sure it does. But the stacks could be named "One,Two,Three" or "Vera,Chuck,Dave" or "Curly,Moe,Shemp" or whatever. They don't have to be significant data points.
>
> --
> Mark Wieder


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
J. Landman Gay wrote:

 > Some of my client's stacks must begin with names starting with "rev"
 > (i.e., Bible study, "Revelations".) This of course wreaks havoc in the
 > IDE, aside from just omitting the stacks from file lists. We have
 > tried setting gRevDevelopment to true and turning on the option to
 > view IDE stacks, but lots of other things still fail. Objects can't be
 > selected with the edit tool and other oddities occur that make the
 > stacks uneditable.

That would seem a bug in the IDE: If there is no means why which the IDE
allows work on stacks the IDE believes are part of the IDE, the IDE
cannot be worked on.

I trust the team will want to resolve that ASAP.

Before submitting that bug report, it may be helpful to check both the
cantModify and modes of the stacks disallowing normal editing.  If they
are toplevel and cantmodify is false you have a bug in the IDE, and if
not you have a solution to get you back to work.


 > But now something else is occuring, totally unintelligible. Normally
 > two stacks are open, an index stack "TSMain" and a mainstack
 > "Revelations".
 > When trying to navigate to Revelations by any method -- opening it
 > from Finder, clicking the name in the index stack, etc. -- this error
 > is thrown:
 >
 > "A stack with the same name as the one you are trying to load is
 > already open. Before loading
 >   /Users/<name>/Documents/<product>/Revelations.livecode what do you
 > want to do with stack
 >   /Users/<name>/Documents/<product>/TSMain.livecode, TSMain?"
 >
 > Besides the issue that the two "conflicting" stacks do not have the
 > same name, the TSMain stack is listed twice, once as a full file path
 > followed by the short name.
 >
 > Huh?

Does TSMain have anything set in its stackfiles property?  Or is the
stackfiles property set in Revelations.livecode?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Mark Wieder wrote:

 > On 09/27/2018 03:47 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
 >
 >> The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
 >> multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens
 >> of places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history,
 >> lookups,
 >
 > Really really really a bad idea.
 > I'm sure you knew that already, but I want to say it again.
 > That's really really really a bad idea.
 >
 > One of the prime tenets of database design is that you shouldn't use
 > actual data to link items together. Else you get into maintenance
 > nightmares and things fall apart when you get unexpected data, etc.
 >
 > I hate to say you should rethink the design, but you should probably
 > rethink the design.

I hate to say this is one of those rare times when I disagree with you,
but this is one of those rare times I disagree with you.

    "There are only two hard things in Computer Science:
     cache invalidation and naming things."
     - Phil Karlton

Naming things has implications in many contexts across most languages.
Even well-written SQL will need to be revised if it refers to a field or
table whose name has changed.

Moreover, xTalks offer many unique benefits over other languages and
object models, among them is being able to refer to objects easily by
name.  Sometimes using names that carry semantic value within the usage
context can be a good solution.  The alternative would be some sort of
lookup, taking us to the first item in Karlton's list.

And most importantly, this particular instance has less to do with
generic presumed "best practice" than what appears to be just a bug in
the IDE:  when it encounters stacks that it thinks are its own, even
using the prescribed method for editing the stacks doesn't work.

If setting gRevDevelopment did what it's supposed to do, she'd be able
to get back to work with no more inconvenience that seeing IDE object
names in its UI listings, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 09/28/2018 01:40 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> I hate to say this is one of those rare times when I disagree with you,
> but this is one of those rare times I disagree with you.

LOL

> Naming things has implications in many contexts across most languages.
> Even well-written SQL will need to be revised if it refers to a field or
> table whose name has changed.

Sure. But you wouldn't want to have a field name dependent on the
contents of a record in another field. And that's my point. Or at least
the one I was trying to make.

> And most importantly, this particular instance has less to do with
> generic presumed "best practice" than what appears to be just a bug in
> the IDE:  when it encounters stacks that it thinks are its own, even
> using the prescribed method for editing the stacks doesn't work.
>
> If setting gRevDevelopment did what it's supposed to do, she'd be able
> to get back to work with no more inconvenience that seeing IDE object
> names in its UI listings, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
>

Not so much of a disagreement, I think, as looking at different facets
(Ha! I almost wrote "faucets"... we're about to get serious plumbing
done here).

I think this does point out at least one serious bug in the IDE with
respect to system/non-system stacks. There's a function somewhere in the
IDE (I forget the name or location) that determines whether a stack is
"special"... some of the stack names are hardwired, others are
determined by naming convention.

Of course, part of the IDE problem comes from dealing with stacks by
short name only, and this has been the subject of a long-standing bug
report. The engine itself has no problem with multiple stacks, just the
IDE. And this could possibly be eliminated with stack UUIDs or if the
IDE looked at filenames in addition to stack names.

--
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  [hidden email]

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
It's self-serving except for the fact that I give it away for free, but
Navigator solves problems like this for breakfast. It has no problems
dealing with "rev" stacks -- it has to, since otherwise I'd have to resort
to the IDE to develop Navigator ;-)

The only limitations I know of that Navigator doesn't much solve are the
fact that "rev" stacks don't throw errors (this has cost me much pain and
suffering) and Navigator doesn't distinguish between IDE "rev" stacks and
non-IDE "rev" stacks, so enabling access to "rev" in Navigator exposes the
IDE (including all of Navigator's files). I had thought about making that
access more granular, but until now that would have seemed to be only for
me. I'll think about it and let you know what I come up with. But in
the meantime, what Navigator provides right now works for me, and would (I
think) help you too.

gc

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 12:09 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Some of my client's stacks must begin with names starting with "rev"
> (i.e., Bible study, "Revelations".) This of course wreaks havoc in the
> IDE, aside from just omitting the stacks from file lists. We have tried
> setting gRevDevelopment to true and turning on the option to view IDE
> stacks, but lots of other things still fail. Objects can't be selected
> with the edit tool and other oddities occur that make the stacks
> uneditable.
>
> Temporarily renaming the stack sometimes works, but throws errors all
> over the place when scripts try to navigate or use the long ID for other
> purposes.
>
> But now something else is occuring, totally unintelligible. Normally two
> stacks are open, an index stack "TSMain" and a mainstack "Revelations".
> When trying to navigate to Revelations by any method -- opening it from
> Finder, clicking the name in the index stack, etc. -- this error is thrown:
>
> "A stack with the same name as the one you are trying to load is already
> open. Before loading
>   /Users/<name>/Documents/<product>/Revelations.livecode what do you
> want to do with stack
>   /Users/<name>/Documents/<product>/TSMain.livecode, TSMain?"
>
> Besides the issue that the two "conflicting" stacks do not have the same
> name, the TSMain stack is listed twice, once as a full file path
> followed by the short name.
>
> Huh? This is under LC 9.0.1 but also happens in LC 8.
>
> How would you manage working with a stack whose name starts with "rev"?
> We are planning to change the name somehow if we can think of a good
> substitute, but for now it needs to stay as-is. And what's the deal with
> the weird conflict message? There are no duplicate stacks in RAM.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 9/28/18 3:28 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

> That would seem a bug in the IDE: If there is no means why which the IDE
> allows work on stacks the IDE believes are part of the IDE, the IDE
> cannot be worked on.
>
> I trust the team will want to resolve that ASAP.
>
> Before submitting that bug report, it may be helpful to check both the
> cantModify and modes of the stacks disallowing normal editing.  If they
> are toplevel and cantmodify is false you have a bug in the IDE, and if
> not you have a solution to get you back to work.

CantModify is false and stack mode is 2. I tried repeatedly to set it to
1 and wouldn't take. It's decided it's a 2 and there is no changing its
mind.


>  > But now something else is occuring, totally unintelligible. Normally
>  > two stacks are open, an index stack "TSMain" and a mainstack
>  > "Revelations".
>  > When trying to navigate to Revelations by any method -- opening it
>  > from Finder, clicking the name in the index stack, etc. -- this error
>  > is thrown:
>  >
>  > "A stack with the same name as the one you are trying to load is
>  > already open. Before loading
>  > /Users/<name>/Documents/<product>/Revelations.livecode what do you
>  > want to do with stack
>  > /Users/<name>/Documents/<product>/TSMain.livecode, TSMain?"
>  >
>  > Besides the issue that the two "conflicting" stacks do not have the
>  > same name, the TSMain stack is listed twice, once as a full file path
>  > followed by the short name.
>  >
>  > Huh?
>
> Does TSMain have anything set in its stackfiles property?  Or is the
> stackfiles property set in Revelations.livecode?

Neither stack has any stackfiles, all stacks are downloaded from the
server on demand using a lookup file auto-generated on the server every
hour. User history lists and glossary lookups are created using the name
of the stack, the card, and some extra data held in script locals.

During development stacks are loaded from disk using their filenames,
calculated according to a naming system that incorporates the stack
name. Although the filenames are similar to the stack names, they are
not identical. Regardless, "TSMain" in any form is not the same as
"Revelation as Apocalypse."

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 9/29/18 1:29 PM, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode wrote:
> The only limitations I know of that Navigator doesn't much solve are the
> fact that "rev" stacks don't throw errors (this has cost me much pain and
> suffering) and Navigator doesn't distinguish between IDE "rev" stacks and
> non-IDE "rev" stacks, so enabling access to "rev" in Navigator exposes the
> IDE (including all of Navigator's files).

Showing IDE stacks in lists does the same, and we were able to select
controls via the app browser normally. The problems occured when trying
to drag or resize those controls, which were immune to any manipulation.
The stack was stubbornly set to mode 2 and wouldn't budge. We were able
to manipulate objects via the message box as long as we specified a long
path to the control. The property inspector was inconsistent in
recognizing the target stack.

This is fairly new behavior, it used to be difficult but do-able. I'm
not sure when it changed, since the last time we needed to edit a "rev"
stack was about 2 years ago.

Some day I will have the time to look at Navigator more closely. I did
give it a shot a couple of times but found the learning curve too high
for a quick switch. I only hear good things about it though, so some day
maybe.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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