Stacks whose names start with "rev"

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
I like the idea of stack UUIDs.

Bob S


> On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:16 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Of course, part of the IDE problem comes from dealing with stacks by short name only, and this has been the subject of a long-standing bug report. The engine itself has no problem with multiple stacks, just the IDE. And this could possibly be eliminated with stack UUIDs or if the IDE looked at filenames in addition to stack names.
>
> --
> Mark Wieder


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Stack mode is read only. You set the style.

Bob S


> On Sep 29, 2018, at 15:33 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> CantModify is false and stack mode is 2. I tried repeatedly to set it to 1 and wouldn't take. It's decided it's a 2 and there is no changing its mind.


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 3:52 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>  The problems occured when trying
> to drag or resize those controls, which were immune to any manipulation.
> The stack was stubbornly set to mode 2 and wouldn't budge. We were able
> to manipulate objects via the message box as long as we specified a long
> path to the control. The property inspector was inconsistent in
> recognizing the target stack.


For the record, Navigator has built-in resize/move controls and property
editors, and all of them work on any control anywhere, no matter what mode
the stack is. I regularly edit the controls/layout of Navigator with
Navigator itself -- sometimes by opening a second Navigator, but sometimes
in the primary copy of Navigator itself, which can produce interesting
results :-)

I'm creating new documentation for Navigator
<https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator>. It's barebones so far, but the use
case you're looking at is selecting what to display
<https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator/selecting-what-to-display> and
resizing/moving
controls <https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator/size-location-editor>.

In bullet points:

1. Open Navigator.
2. Select "Show IDE Stacks" on the stack menu (second from left). -- this
is so the Revelation stack will show in Navigator.
3. Select the Revelation stack in the stack menu.
4. If you want to work with a card other than the current card of stack
"Revelation", select the card you want on the card menu (third from left).
5. Navigator's list will show all the controls on that card. Select
whatever control(s) you want to modify. Standard list operators
(shift-click to extend selections, command-click to toggle selections)
work. Then:


To resize or move the controls, select the Size/Location Editor...
<https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator/size-location-editor>on the
Properties menu (5th from right, the "P")

To change the colors of the controls, select the Color Editor... (docs TBD)
on the Properties menu.

Both the Size/Location Editor and the Color Editor have revert options, so
you can undo anything you have done since the last time you opened them; or
the selection changed, if they're open as palettes.

To edit the properties of the controls, select the Property Editor...
<https://gcanyon.wixsite.com/navigator/property-editor> on the Properties
menu.

If you have any questions just let me know.

gc
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 7:34 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I like the idea of stack UUIDs.
>

One of the awesome things about FileMaker is that tables, fields/columns,
and layouts all have underlying UUIDs. If you rename a table or column, no
problem -- everything based on that, including layouts displaying values
from the column, calculations based on the column, etc., automatically
updates to the new name. Once you've used a system like that, it's hard to
use anything else.

gc
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
I found it much easier to move away from Filemaker when I groked their licensing. Seems I had to pay a licensing fee for every copy of every app I distributed, even when it was for internal consumption. That and their idea of coding is filling in dialogs. In fact, I went looking for a hypercard alternative that was current because I had enough of filemaker.

Bob S


> On Oct 1, 2018, at 15:21 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 7:34 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I like the idea of stack UUIDs.
>>
>
> One of the awesome things about FileMaker is that tables, fields/columns,
> and layouts all have underlying UUIDs. If you rename a table or column, no
> problem -- everything based on that, including layouts displaying values
> from the column, calculations based on the column, etc., automatically
> updates to the new name. Once you've used a system like that, it's hard to
> use anything else.
>
> gc


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Yep, FileMaker isn't perfect, but it does naming right, and almost nothing
else does.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can type to code now (and for some years).

On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 3:52 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I found it much easier to move away from Filemaker when I groked their
> licensing. Seems I had to pay a licensing fee for every copy of every app I
> distributed, even when it was for internal consumption. That and their idea
> of coding is filling in dialogs. In fact, I went looking for a hypercard
> alternative that was current because I had enough of filemaker.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 1, 2018, at 15:21 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 7:34 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> I like the idea of stack UUIDs.
> >>
> >
> > One of the awesome things about FileMaker is that tables, fields/columns,
> > and layouts all have underlying UUIDs. If you rename a table or column,
> no
> > problem -- everything based on that, including layouts displaying values
> > from the column, calculations based on the column, etc., automatically
> > updates to the new name. Once you've used a system like that, it's hard
> to
> > use anything else.
> >
> > gc
>
>
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Yeah it's been a long time since I worked with it. We had Filemaker Server running for a couple small apps, but each user who wanted to run the app had to buy a full client license.

Bob S


> On Oct 1, 2018, at 16:25 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yep, FileMaker isn't perfect, but it does naming right, and almost nothing
> else does.
>
> Also, I'm pretty sure you can type to code now (and for some years).


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:35 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yeah it's been a long time since I worked with it. We had Filemaker Server
> running for a couple small apps, but each user who wanted to run the app
> had to buy a full client license.
>

That part has changed (somewhat) as well. There's a robust web client; you
can build a client (LC is emphasizing this); and a free iOS client. For all
of those, there's no individual license, but some sort of limit on the
total number of server connections. All of this is from having looked at
the FM web site maybe twice in the last nine years, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Geoff Canyon wrote:

 > Yep, FileMaker isn't perfect, but it does naming right, and almost
 > nothing else does.

Been many years, but I thought names were user-settable.  What does it
actually do with names?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
The fact that there is an underlying permanent unique id for everything,
completely abstracted from the user. So you can change the name of a
column, or table, or layout, one time, in the database definition, and all
references to that object in scripts, other layouts, etc. will
automatically update -- or really, peeking behind the curtain, I'm guessing
they don't have to update at all because they all reference the permanent
unique id, and only render it into the name you know it by when they render
themselves for you to edit them.

So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.

gc

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 1:09 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Geoff Canyon wrote:
>
>  > Yep, FileMaker isn't perfect, but it does naming right, and almost
>  > nothing else does.
>
> Been many years, but I thought names were user-settable.  What does it
> actually do with names?
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   ____________________________________________________________________
>   [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Geoff Canyon wrote:

> The fact that there is an underlying permanent unique id for everything,
> completely abstracted from the user. So you can change the name of a
> column, or table, or layout, one time, in the database definition, and all
> references to that object in scripts, other layouts, etc. will
> automatically update -- or really, peeking behind the curtain, I'm guessing
> they don't have to update at all because they all reference the permanent
> unique id, and only render it into the name you know it by when they render
> themselves for you to edit them.
>
> So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
> that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
> automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.

Ah, thanks.  I wonder how the name lookup for every element in the
system affects performance.

It sounds like in this regard LC is no worse off than MySQL, SQLite, and
other systems where names are used directly.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Name lookups probably only happen in the development environment. My guess is that everything is stored/referenced using the ID.

I’m not sure how this could translate to LC in general though.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 2, 2018, 7:04 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]>, wrote:

> Geoff Canyon wrote:
> > The fact that there is an underlying permanent unique id for everything,
> > completely abstracted from the user. So you can change the name of a
> > column, or table, or layout, one time, in the database definition, and all
> > references to that object in scripts, other layouts, etc. will
> > automatically update -- or really, peeking behind the curtain, I'm guessing
> > they don't have to update at all because they all reference the permanent
> > unique id, and only render it into the name you know it by when they render
> > themselves for you to edit them.
> >
> > So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
> > that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
> > automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.
>
> Ah, thanks. I wonder how the name lookup for every element in the
> system affects performance.
>
> It sounds like in this regard LC is no worse off than MySQL, SQLite, and
> other systems where names are used directly.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> [hidden email] http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:04 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Geoff Canyon wrote:
> > So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
> > that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
> > automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.
>
> Ah, thanks.  I wonder how the name lookup for every element in the
> system affects performance.
>
> It sounds like in this regard LC is no worse off than MySQL, SQLite, and
> other systems where names are used directly.
>

If they're doing it the way I think -- having everything based on the
permanent ID and only using the map to parse to the human-applied name when
necessary, then the performance hit is likely very limited and infrequent.
Apart from development work, FileMaker doesn't present the control name
often.

As far as being no worse off, agreed -- I know of no other tool that does
this. It's extraordinary that FileMaker has had this feature since
something like the late 80s, and no other tools have recognized how awesome
it is. It's like chunk expressions -- eye-opening.
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:12 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Name lookups probably only happen in the development environment. My guess
> is that everything is stored/referenced using the ID.
>
> I’m not sure how this could translate to LC in general though.
>

I think you're correct on both points. I'm betting this feature would be
hard to retro-fit to any environment. But it sure is nice.
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
It would be easy enough. Just maintain an array in each card's custom properties with a pseudoname and the long id as keys, and call a function to retrieve them when you reference them. But then, why name objects at all? Why not just refer to them by their long ids in the scripts? Also there is the altid property which allows you to copy an object and still refer to it by it's altid wherever it is found.

And, thinking about this a bit, whenever I get the chance I iterate through a series of objects either by using the number of <objectType> in a repeat loop, or else by storing them in a property when I need them. I guess these are forms of abstraction. I went through all my code and "dereferenced" it in preparation for moving to behaviors. I store any objects I need to reference specifically in custom properties.

For instance I have what I call a name tag field, which is a label indicating what the parent of a form is (the site a device belongs to, the customer a site belongs to etc.) So I store a custom property in the card or stack where the cNameTagField property is the name of the field. To avoid multiple calls to "get the <property> of", I store all such properties in a single array, get the array one time and populate script local variables. Another form of abstraction.

I guess the reason Filemaker has to have this automatic abstraction is because the database and underlying form objects are so closely linked. It really wouldn't work any other way. In livecode, the only link between a database column and a field or button is the code you write.

Bob S


> On Oct 2, 2018, at 15:30 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The fact that there is an underlying permanent unique id for everything,
> completely abstracted from the user. So you can change the name of a
> column, or table, or layout, one time, in the database definition, and all
> references to that object in scripts, other layouts, etc. will
> automatically update -- or really, peeking behind the curtain, I'm guessing
> they don't have to update at all because they all reference the permanent
> unique id, and only render it into the name you know it by when they render
> themselves for you to edit them.
>
> So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
> that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
> automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.
>
> gc


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
FileMaker goes much deeper than this, and functionality like this would
almost have to be part of the engine.

Naming things is a way of making it easier to keep track of them for the
developer. Who wants to write

graphic id 5621 of group id 5619 of group id 5615 of group id 5605 of group
id 1282 of card id 1002 of stack "/Users/gcanyon/Documents/My
Livecode/Plugins/Navigator.rev"

when you can just write

graphic "topright in"

So for starters, you'd need to parse every script as it was saved, find all
the object references, and replace all object references with long IDs.
Likewise, you'd need a reverse routine to turn scripts back into something
readable when the developer wants to edit them. That's easier in FileMaker
because there is only one way to reference a control, as opposed to the
myriad of ways you can do it in LiveCode. You'd also need to find a way to
make that robust against file name/path changes, which is a whole other can
of worms.

Also, I don't think FileMaker "has" to do it -- there are many database
tools out there, and as far as I know, none of them do this.

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:34 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> It would be easy enough. Just maintain an array in each card's custom
> properties with a pseudoname and the long id as keys, and call a function
> to retrieve them when you reference them. But then, why name objects at
> all? Why not just refer to them by their long ids in the scripts? Also
> there is the altid property which allows you to copy an object and still
> refer to it by it's altid wherever it is found.
>
> And, thinking about this a bit, whenever I get the chance I iterate
> through a series of objects either by using the number of <objectType> in a
> repeat loop, or else by storing them in a property when I need them. I
> guess these are forms of abstraction. I went through all my code and
> "dereferenced" it in preparation for moving to behaviors. I store any
> objects I need to reference specifically in custom properties.
>
> For instance I have what I call a name tag field, which is a label
> indicating what the parent of a form is (the site a device belongs to, the
> customer a site belongs to etc.) So I store a custom property in the card
> or stack where the cNameTagField property is the name of the field. To
> avoid multiple calls to "get the <property> of", I store all such
> properties in a single array, get the array one time and populate script
> local variables. Another form of abstraction.
>
> I guess the reason Filemaker has to have this automatic abstraction is
> because the database and underlying form objects are so closely linked. It
> really wouldn't work any other way. In livecode, the only link between a
> database column and a field or button is the code you write.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 2, 2018, at 15:30 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > The fact that there is an underlying permanent unique id for everything,
> > completely abstracted from the user. So you can change the name of a
> > column, or table, or layout, one time, in the database definition, and
> all
> > references to that object in scripts, other layouts, etc. will
> > automatically update -- or really, peeking behind the curtain, I'm
> guessing
> > they don't have to update at all because they all reference the permanent
> > unique id, and only render it into the name you know it by when they
> render
> > themselves for you to edit them.
> >
> > So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
> > that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
> > automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.
> >
> > gc
>
>
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Point taken. But Livecode is not a database tool. :-)

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2018, at 10:45 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Also, I don't think FileMaker "has" to do it -- there are many database
> tools out there, and as far as I know, none of them do this.


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 8:48 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
> multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of
> places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups,
> etc.) and I'd have to add exceptions everywhere to accomodate just a
> couple of problem names. We only want to do an occasional edit without
> upsetting the whole IDE.
>
I appreciate that this will not solve 'the problem' but would solve
your 'current problem'; why not give the stack the correct name "The
Revelation" *. That way ALL your  glossaries, student notes and other
references would show the correct title of the book. Please note there
is no 's' at the end, and by adopting the correct name you may go some
way in helping the students win trivia bets as to whether the last
book of the Bible is called "Revelations".

* At least in my copy of the King James Bible it's called "The
Revelation - of St John the Divine"; other versions of the Bible may
have colloquially translated that to Revelations.

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Kay C Lan wrote:

 > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 8:48 AM J. Landman Gay wrote:
 >>
 >> The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
 >> multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens
 >> of places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history,
 >> lookups, etc.) and I'd have to add exceptions everywhere to
 >> accomodate just a couple of problem names. We only want to do an
 >> occasional edit without upsetting the whole IDE.
 >>
 > I appreciate that this will not solve 'the problem' but would solve
 > your 'current problem'; why not give the stack the correct name "The
 > Revelation" *.

I have seen even academic use without "the".

But such considerations do not appear to be needed.

What Jacque described is a set of circumstances that prevent even work
on the IDE.

This is either the most critical bug in the IDE's history and therefore
likely to be resolved within days if it hasn't already, or just a minor
error like attempting to set the stack's mode rather than its style
(good catch, Bob).

Either way, resolvable in short or order.

It would be comforting to find how how she got back to work, but since
she's not here I assume she's busy because she did.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Yeah, we plan to change the name for the next release in January. The
author of each courseware title names its sections and he named this one
"Revelation as Apocalypse". It's currently in use by this semester's
students, but he's agreed to a different name for next semester.

The main thing I needed to know is whether there was an easier way to edit
the stack than what we were doing. It seems there isn't. The edit was minor
and was done via the message box. I think there's a bug in there somewhere
but it isn't worth pursuing right now. The bizarre warning message was also
particularly strange, and I'm curious where that came from.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [hidden email]
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 3, 2018 4:01:41 PM Kay C Lan via use-livecode
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 8:48 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
>> multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of
>> places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups,
>> etc.) and I'd have to add exceptions everywhere to accomodate just a
>> couple of problem names. We only want to do an occasional edit without
>> upsetting the whole IDE.
>>
> I appreciate that this will not solve 'the problem' but would solve
> your 'current problem'; why not give the stack the correct name "The
> Revelation" *. That way ALL your  glossaries, student notes and other
> references would show the correct title of the book. Please note there
> is no 's' at the end, and by adopting the correct name you may go some
> way in helping the students win trivia bets as to whether the last
> book of the Bible is called "Revelations".
>
> * At least in my copy of the King James Bible it's called "The
> Revelation - of St John the Divine"; other versions of the Bible may
> have colloquially translated that to Revelations.
>
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