Supercard 4.8 public beta

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Supercard 4.8 public beta

Dr. Hawkins
On the other side of the fence . . . SupercCard just emailed me about their
public beta for 4.8.

Since it's mac only (again), I have no interest, and it apparently still
doesn't have things I need from LC 5 (and I presume at least 4).  (For that
matter, the only things that I *really* need that weren't in SuperCard 1.5,
which ran the older version of my program in the 80s . . .)

But I wonder what they'd do if I presented my 1.5 disks for an upgrade :)

--
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(702) 508-8462
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Richmond Mathewson-2
I, personally, playing on my G5 running PPC 10.5, cannot for the life of
me see any obvious
advantages of Supercard over Livecode. It strikes me that this is
probably largely used by people
who have dug themselves into a Macintosh-only corner.

Richmond.

On 22.09.2016 20:43, Dr. Hawkins wrote:

> On the other side of the fence . . . SupercCard just emailed me about their
> public beta for 4.8.
>
> Since it's mac only (again), I have no interest, and it apparently still
> doesn't have things I need from LC 5 (and I presume at least 4).  (For that
> matter, the only things that I *really* need that weren't in SuperCard 1.5,
> which ran the older version of my program in the 80s . . .)
>
> But I wonder what they'd do if I presented my 1.5 disks for an upgrade :)
>


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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Dr. Hawkins
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Richmond <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I, personally, playing on my G5 running PPC 10.5, cannot for the life of
> me see any obvious
> advantages of Supercard over Livecode. It strikes me that this is probably
> largely used by people
> who have dug themselves into a Macintosh-only corner.
>

I started using it in '89 or '90 for the simple reason that it could have
two windows open.   Once HyperCard 2.0 rolled around, that was no longer
necessary, but converting back would have involved copy and pasting scripts
manually for every control, or some such hassle

Had I known that it would come out with a DOS version a year later, I
wouldn't have abandoned my program, and would probably be the dominant
vendor in my industry (and the program that filled that *still* doesn't do
things I did 25+ years ago . . .)

Develop on mac for everywhere is critical to me.  If it had a clear and
supported path to compile on android, I'd be shifting some of what I do to
Swift from livecode--but until then, no.


--
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Stephen Barncard-4
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
I was a hypercard ACE but my three purchases of Supercard over the years
never got used.  I found the whole system baffling, an annoying workflow.
I always went back to HC.

sqb

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Richmond <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I, personally, playing on my G5 running PPC 10.5, cannot for the life of
> me see any obvious
> advantages of Supercard over Livecode. It strikes me that this is probably
> largely used by people
> who have dug themselves into a Macintosh-only corner.
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 22.09.2016 20:43, Dr. Hawkins wrote:
>
>> On the other side of the fence . . . SupercCard just emailed me about
>> their
>> public beta for 4.8.
>>
>> Since it's mac only (again), I have no interest, and it apparently still
>> doesn't have things I need from LC 5 (and I presume at least 4).  (For
>> that
>> matter, the only things that I *really* need that weren't in SuperCard
>> 1.5,
>> which ran the older version of my program in the 80s . . .)
>>
>> But I wonder what they'd do if I presented my 1.5 disks for an upgrade :)
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Richmond Mathewson-2
Well, every time there is a new Supercard release I download the trial and,
every time, I wonder why I do that. But I do the same sort of thing for
HyperNEXT as well
[ http://www.tigabyte.com ] so I'm obviously bonkers.

I owned a copy of SuperCard in 1995 and really could never work out how
to do things
efficiently (after all Colour was doable in Hypercard at that stage).

Richmond.

On 22.09.2016 22:27, stephen barncard wrote:

> I was a hypercard ACE but my three purchases of Supercard over the years
> never got used.  I found the whole system baffling, an annoying workflow.
> I always went back to HC.
>
> sqb
>
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
> mixstream.org
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Richmond <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I, personally, playing on my G5 running PPC 10.5, cannot for the life of
>> me see any obvious
>> advantages of Supercard over Livecode. It strikes me that this is probably
>> largely used by people
>> who have dug themselves into a Macintosh-only corner.
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
>> On 22.09.2016 20:43, Dr. Hawkins wrote:
>>
>>> On the other side of the fence . . . SupercCard just emailed me about
>>> their
>>> public beta for 4.8.
>>>
>>> Since it's mac only (again), I have no interest, and it apparently still
>>> doesn't have things I need from LC 5 (and I presume at least 4).  (For
>>> that
>>> matter, the only things that I *really* need that weren't in SuperCard
>>> 1.5,
>>> which ran the older version of my program in the 80s . . .)
>>>
>>> But I wonder what they'd do if I presented my 1.5 disks for an upgrade :)
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
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>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
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>>
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Bob Sneidar-2
In reply to this post by Stephen Barncard-4
Agreed. I probably paid for the original Supercard and about 4 upgrades over the years and never produced anything with it, but the ability to continue working in a hypercard-like environment and wanting it to not go the way of Hypercard was enough to keep me on the gravy train.

Bob S


On Sep 22, 2016, at 12:27 , stephen barncard <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

I was a hypercard ACE but my three purchases of Supercard over the years
never got used.  I found the whole system baffling, an annoying workflow.
I always went back to HC.

sqb

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org<http://mixstream.org/>

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Dr. Hawkins
On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Bob Sneidar <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Agreed. I probably paid for the original Supercard and about 4 upgrades
> over the years and never produced anything with it, but the ability to
> continue working in a hypercard-like environment and wanting it to not go
> the way of Hypercard was enough to keep me on the gravy train.
>

If I'd kept using it another year, I'd probably be wealthy now--I had no
clue that the DOS version was actually going to ship in another year, and
dropped my project.

*sigh*

I last used 1.5 . . . but a couple of years ago, I *was* able to import the
stacks to the trial version of the then-current version (4.5?).  I had to
drag out an old MacClassic, restore from a stack of backup disks (an
adventure in itself, finding a copy of the backup program), write to
floppy, convince a FreeBSD machine to read that, and then either burn a cd
or use a usb to get it onto a modern mac . . .


--
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Wprothero
I waited a year for the DOS version. It never came. Then
I went to Director.
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Oct 4, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Dr. Hawkins <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Bob Sneidar <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Agreed. I probably paid for the original Supercard and about 4 upgrades
>> over the years and never produced anything with it, but the ability to
>> continue working in a hypercard-like environment and wanting it to not go
>> the way of Hypercard was enough to keep me on the gravy train.
>>
>
> If I'd kept using it another year, I'd probably be wealthy now--I had no
> clue that the DOS version was actually going to ship in another year, and
> dropped my project.
>
> *sigh*
>
> I last used 1.5 . . . but a couple of years ago, I *was* able to import the
> stacks to the trial version of the then-current version (4.5?).  I had to
> drag out an old MacClassic, restore from a stack of backup disks (an
> adventure in itself, finding a copy of the backup program), write to
> floppy, convince a FreeBSD machine to read that, and then either burn a cd
> or use a usb to get it onto a modern mac . . .
>
>
> --
> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> (702) 508-8462
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

David V Glasgow
 I PAID in advance for the Windows version, and then switched to mTropolis.  IIRC it trumpeted that it did not rely on a metaphor.  

Boy was I glad to get back to stacks & cards

David G

> On 5 Oct 2016, at 2:03 am, Earthednet-wp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I waited a year for the DOS version. It never came. Then
> I went to Director.
> Bill

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Richard Gaskin
David V Glasgow wrote:

 >  I PAID in advance for the Windows version, and then switched to
 > mTropolis.  IIRC it trumpeted that it did not rely on a metaphor.
 >
 > Boy was I glad to get back to stacks & cards

For me it's not even the "card metaphor" - we could call it a "form"
like VB does or a "page" like Toolbook and I'd be just as happy.  I
rarely use more than one card in a window anyway.

For me the big benefit is a fully featured scripting language, and
unlike so many others ours has GUI elements as an inherent part of the
language. With this the code we write can reflect the user experience,
making the process from ideation of the UX to implementation of the UI a
breeze.

I used to think about building mTropolis or iShell in LiveCode, doable
were it not for one thing:  I don't believe it's worth the time.

No matter how simple a development UI might _seem_, no point-and-click
system can deliver the flexibility and expressiveness of scripted code.

Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click
authoring tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a limit
on the complexity of systems that can be expressed clearly in any
point-and-click UI, and ultimately code becomes the more readable option
for any but the most trivial of programs.

After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click
tool to build their IDE? :)

Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-leading
Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of the world
to dominate applications development.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by David V Glasgow
I wonder how any development suite and/or language could claim it did not
rely on a metaphor unless it consisted of programming in nothing but
ones and zeros?

Richmond.

On 5.10.2016 20:03, David V Glasgow wrote:

>   I PAID in advance for the Windows version, and then switched to mTropolis.  IIRC it trumpeted that it did not rely on a metaphor.
>
> Boy was I glad to get back to stacks & cards
>
> David G
>
>> On 5 Oct 2016, at 2:03 am, Earthednet-wp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I waited a year for the DOS version. It never came. Then
>> I went to Director.
>> Bill
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

David V Glasgow
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
Richard,

I take issue that the specific metaphor doesn’t matter.  Stacks and cards are great metaphors for that period of time when a potential programmer is trying to build a mental model of what exactly it is they are trying  to do on screen, and relating that to the available tools and vocabulary.  mTropolis was fun, but I often just couldn’t remember how to do stuff, because I had no mental model that I could apply to the on screen abstractions. Despite a background in ‘proper' languages, that kept tripping me up.

Of course, you are right. The magic sauce and sheer power is the script, but the metaphor there is English (at least to start with).  Most other languages are precisely that, other languages.  LiveCode (the script) approximates how the English speaking world make things happen in their day to day lives.  There was a recent post asking why Livecode ”Hello World” didn't look more English than any of the others.  I didn’t have time to respond, but it is relevant here.  The importance of the linguistic metaphor is obscured  by “Hello World”.  “Sort lines of tbiglist ascending by third word of each”  is better, but also reveals the gotcha in the English metaphor.  Should it be “Sort the lines”?  “the third word”? Does it matter?  That snag arises because Hypertext languages adopt the English metaphor so well, the user can just take it too far.

Your ‘problem' Richard is that whereas I still delight in little piles of cards, I think you have transcended metaphor:  Do not try to bend the card. That's impossible. Instead only try to realise the truth  ;-)

David G

> On 5 Oct 2016, at 6:22 pm, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> David V Glasgow wrote:
>
> >  I PAID in advance for the Windows version, and then switched to
> > mTropolis.  IIRC it trumpeted that it did not rely on a metaphor.
> >
> > Boy was I glad to get back to stacks & cards
>
> For me it's not even the "card metaphor" - we could call it a "form" like VB does or a "page" like Toolbook and I'd be just as happy.  I rarely use more than one card in a window anyway.
>
> For me the big benefit is a fully featured scripting language, and unlike so many others ours has GUI elements as an inherent part of the language. With this the code we write can reflect the user experience, making the process from ideation of the UX to implementation of the UI a breeze.
>
> I used to think about building mTropolis or iShell in LiveCode, doable were it not for one thing:  I don't believe it's worth the time.
>
> No matter how simple a development UI might _seem_, no point-and-click system can deliver the flexibility and expressiveness of scripted code.
>
> Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click authoring tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a limit on the complexity of systems that can be expressed clearly in any point-and-click UI, and ultimately code becomes the more readable option for any but the most trivial of programs.
>
> After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click tool to build their IDE? :)
>
> Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-leading Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of the world to dominate applications development.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> ____________________________________________________________________
> [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Dr. Hawkins
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:25 AM, David V Glasgow <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Do not try to bend the card.


Nor spindle fold, or mutilate . . .


--
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(702) 508-8462
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Bob Sneidar-2
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
Filemaker has a point and click programming interface. It just gets in the way. I spent more time perusing the dialog and sub-dialog boxes to try and figure out how to add 1 to a variable that contains 1, that I found myself saying, "Can't I just type a formula??"

I gave up on Filemaker.

Bob S


On Oct 5, 2016, at 10:22 , Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click authoring tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a limit on the complexity of systems that can be expressed clearly in any point-and-click UI, and ultimately code becomes the more readable option for any but the most trivial of programs.

After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click tool to build their IDE? :)

Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-leading Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of the world to dominate applications development.

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems
Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Stephen Barncard-4
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 9:14 PM, Bob Sneidar <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Filemaker has a point and click programming interface. It just gets in the
> way. I spent more time perusing the dialog and sub-dialog boxes to try and
> figure out how to add 1 to a variable that contains 1, that I found myself
> saying, "Can't I just type a formula??"
>
> I gave up on Filemaker.
>
> Bob S
>

the newest version of Numbers has awesome features that make me consider
never using Filemaker for 'simple databases' again.
especially ones that are for extended data organizers. It never got in the
way.

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar-2


On 15.10.2016 07:14, Bob Sneidar wrote:

> Filemaker has a point and click programming interface. It just gets in the way. I spent more time perusing the dialog and sub-dialog boxes to try and figure out how to add 1 to a variable that contains 1, that I found myself saying, "Can't I just type a formula??"
>
> I gave up on Filemaker.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> On Oct 5, 2016, at 10:22 , Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click authoring tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a limit on the complexity of systems that can be expressed clearly in any point-and-click UI, and ultimately code becomes the more readable option for any but the most trivial of programs.
>
> After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click tool to build their IDE? :)
>
> Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-leading Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of the world to dominate applications development.

Well, where does that put Livecode?

Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should be
shedding its point-and-click
heritage in favour of becoming a scripting-only language?

While I am sure that is possible, at that point all the hard work that
Kevin Miller did to extend
the WYSIWYG aspect of MetaCard will go for nothing, and a very large
part of what makes Livecode so
strong will be lost.
*
**Livecode* is not a point-and-click authoring tool, and nor is it
something like C++; but it can be seen
as a *hybrid* of these two extremes, where end-users can choose where
along that*point-and-click to**
**scripting language continuum* they want to work.

If Livecode's point-and-click interface "just gets in the way" there is
no earthly reason why one cannot do the whole thing by scripting alone
[frankly, making buttons, fields and other "furniture" by scripting
seems, after years of Livecode 'as it is', unnecessarily tedious], but
that doesn't mean it has to
whither-and-die like some sort of Marxist waning away of the state,
especially when it is a great strength of Livecode.

Richmond.

>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Colin Holgate-3
I believe Richard was talking about tools that only did point and click. Everything had to be achieved by placing elements and setting parameters. mTropolis was one of the neater tools of that type, but it would take a lot of logical thinking to get it to achieve things that could be done in a few lines of code.

It’s a good thing if a tool is a combination of visual layout and then some scripting. Even Xcode uses an interface builder tool.


> On Oct 15, 2016, at 5:01 AM, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, where does that put Livecode?
>
> Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should be shedding its point-and-click
> heritage in favour of becoming a scripting-only language?

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Richmond Mathewson-2
Aha!

On 15.10.2016 17:04, Colin Holgate wrote:
> I believe Richard was talking about tools that only did point and click.

Well tools that only do point and click are a bit of a dead loss because
their authors are
unable to make them fine-grained enough that end-users can tune them
sufficiently to
produce anything other than clunky monsters.

Richmond.

> Everything had to be achieved by placing elements and setting parameters. mTropolis was one of the neater tools of that type, but it would take a lot of logical thinking to get it to achieve things that could be done in a few lines of code.
>
> It’s a good thing if a tool is a combination of visual layout and then some scripting. Even Xcode uses an interface builder tool.
>
>
>> On Oct 15, 2016, at 5:01 AM, Richmond <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well, where does that put Livecode?
>>
>> Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should be shedding its point-and-click
>> heritage in favour of becoming a scripting-only language?
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
Richmond wrote:

 > On Oct 5, 2016, at 10:22 , Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >>
 >> Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click
 >> authoring tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a
 >> limit on the complexity of systems that can be expressed clearly in
 >> any point-and-click UI, and ultimately code becomes the more
 >> readable option for any but the most trivial of programs.
 >>
 >> After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click
 >> tool to build their IDE? :)
 >>
 >> Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-
 >> leading Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of
 >> the world to dominate applications development.
 >
 > Well, where does that put Livecode?

It leaves LiveCode where it's designed to be: among the world's most
useful scripting language IDEs.


 > Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should
 > be shedding its point-and-click heritage in favour of becoming a
 > scripting-only language?
 >
 > While I am sure that is possible, at that point all the hard work
 > that Kevin Miller did to extend the WYSIWYG aspect of MetaCard will
 > go for nothing, and a very large part of what makes Livecode so
 > strong will be lost.

I guess my writing was unclear.

I wasn't distinguishing between command-line tools and GUI tools, but
between IDEs in which *programming* is done through typing or via a
point-and-click GUI.

Of course LiveCode has a GUI for layout, as does XCode, Visual Basic,
Xojo, and many others.

And like those, the *programming* within the tool is done by typing.

This is a clear distinction from tools like Authorware, IconAuthor,
Scratch, and that whole category of VPLs, in which the *programming* is
done via a point-and-click GUI.

Of course no one's advocating that Kevin turn LC into a
command-line-only tool.  Please.

But no matter how much time we spend doing layout in the GUI, the
objects we create are for the most part static.  If we want them to do
anything we write code.  And when we write code we do so by typing.


 > **Livecode* is not a point-and-click authoring tool, and nor is it
 > something like C++; but it can be seen as a *hybrid* of these two
 > extremes, where end-users can choose where along that*point-and-click
 > to** **scripting language continuum* they want to work.

There's not much of a continuum there now.  There wasn't much in
HyperCard either.

In HyperCard, the range of things you could code via its point-and-click
auto-scripting palette was limited to simple navigation and little else.

Want to put the contents of one field into another?  Add two numbers and
display the result?  Read a file from disk?  In Authorware and other
VPLs you can do those things via point-and-click, but all those and
nearly everything else we do require scripting in HyperCard, as it does
in LiveCode (and Python, and JavaScript, and Swift, etc.).

Without scripting, LiveCode is only slightly more capable of making
interactive media than any drawing program.  Which is to say close to NIL.

Responding to user actions with meaningful behavior in any scripting
language requires, well, scripting.


My point wasn't that we should turn LC into a command-line tool.

My point was merely reinforcing what Bill Appleton observed, and what
the market has demonstrated since:  point-and-click *programming* can
sometimes lower cognitive load in early stages of learning, but at the
cost of inhibiting the range of complexity it can gracefully support as
one's skills grow.

While VPLs have for the most part come and gone, scripting has become
the dominant means of applications development in the 21st century.

Scratch is an undeniably valuable tool for young minds.  But for
delivery of professional applications, even richer VPLs than Scratch,
like Authorware and IconAuthor, have waned while typing in scripting
languages has only continued to grow.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Supercard 4.8 public beta

Richmond Mathewson-2
Thank you, Richard Gaskin, for clarifying that.

What that does do is confirm my view that teaching children stuff such
as Scratch at school
has little or no value in the sense that it is NOT a programming language.

Teaching Scratch reminds me of Jas Pitman's Initial Teaching Alphabet:
intended to speed
up children's ability to read English all it succeeded in doing was in
slowing down their
learning the English writing system because they had already learnt an
"alphabet" with 45
letters, many of which, while resembling those in the English alphabet
were effectively false friends.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_Teaching_Alphabet

Every time anyone says "Let's use Scratch with young children" I start
sweating and having hot
flushes . . . and wonder why more is not being done to push Livecode and
Livecode-like
programming IDEs in schools.

Richmond.

On 15.10.2016 18:23, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> Richmond wrote:
>
> > On Oct 5, 2016, at 10:22 , Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >>
> >> Like Bill Appleton told me shortly after he left his point-and-click
> >> authoring tool CourseBuilder behind to make SuperCard, there's a
> >> limit on the complexity of systems that can be expressed clearly in
> >> any point-and-click UI, and ultimately code becomes the more
> >> readable option for any but the most trivial of programs.
> >>
> >> After all, how many point-and-click tools used their point-and-click
> >> tool to build their IDE? :)
> >>
> >> Today most of the point-and-click are gone, even the industry-
> >> leading Authorware, while scripting language have taken over much of
> >> the world to dominate applications development.
> >
> > Well, where does that put Livecode?
>
> It leaves LiveCode where it's designed to be: among the world's most
> useful scripting language IDEs.
>
>
> > Or, rather, are you, Richard Gaskin, suggesting that Livecode should
> > be shedding its point-and-click heritage in favour of becoming a
> > scripting-only language?
> >
> > While I am sure that is possible, at that point all the hard work
> > that Kevin Miller did to extend the WYSIWYG aspect of MetaCard will
> > go for nothing, and a very large part of what makes Livecode so
> > strong will be lost.
>
> I guess my writing was unclear.
>
> I wasn't distinguishing between command-line tools and GUI tools, but
> between IDEs in which *programming* is done through typing or via a
> point-and-click GUI.
>
> Of course LiveCode has a GUI for layout, as does XCode, Visual Basic,
> Xojo, and many others.
>
> And like those, the *programming* within the tool is done by typing.
>
> This is a clear distinction from tools like Authorware, IconAuthor,
> Scratch, and that whole category of VPLs, in which the *programming*
> is done via a point-and-click GUI.
>
> Of course no one's advocating that Kevin turn LC into a
> command-line-only tool.  Please.
>
> But no matter how much time we spend doing layout in the GUI, the
> objects we create are for the most part static.  If we want them to do
> anything we write code.  And when we write code we do so by typing.
>
>
> > **Livecode* is not a point-and-click authoring tool, and nor is it
> > something like C++; but it can be seen as a *hybrid* of these two
> > extremes, where end-users can choose where along that*point-and-click
> > to** **scripting language continuum* they want to work.
>
> There's not much of a continuum there now.  There wasn't much in
> HyperCard either.
>
> In HyperCard, the range of things you could code via its
> point-and-click auto-scripting palette was limited to simple
> navigation and little else.
>
> Want to put the contents of one field into another?  Add two numbers
> and display the result?  Read a file from disk?  In Authorware and
> other VPLs you can do those things via point-and-click, but all those
> and nearly everything else we do require scripting in HyperCard, as it
> does in LiveCode (and Python, and JavaScript, and Swift, etc.).
>
> Without scripting, LiveCode is only slightly more capable of making
> interactive media than any drawing program.  Which is to say close to
> NIL.
>
> Responding to user actions with meaningful behavior in any scripting
> language requires, well, scripting.
>
>
> My point wasn't that we should turn LC into a command-line tool.
>
> My point was merely reinforcing what Bill Appleton observed, and what
> the market has demonstrated since:  point-and-click *programming* can
> sometimes lower cognitive load in early stages of learning, but at the
> cost of inhibiting the range of complexity it can gracefully support
> as one's skills grow.
>
> While VPLs have for the most part come and gone, scripting has become
> the dominant means of applications development in the 21st century.
>
> Scratch is an undeniably valuable tool for young minds.  But for
> delivery of professional applications, even richer VPLs than Scratch,
> like Authorware and IconAuthor, have waned while typing in scripting
> languages has only continued to grow.
>


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