Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

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Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Did support for the text styles “expanded” and “condensed” disappear at some point from Livecode?

I see in this that they were added in the misty past:

http://docs.runrev.com/Property/HTMLText

They are not in the dictionary now, or Font menu, and setting those with a script doesn’t work.

I loved using those styles in Hypercard back in the day…

Peter Bogdanoff
ArtsInteractive
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Re: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
That reference is all about htmlText . . .

Having a look at Revolution Media Build 950 Version 4.0.0 on Mac OS
10.7.5 . . .

[Not as daft as I look: always a good idea to hang onto old, licensed
versions.]

I found this:

set the textStyle of line 1 of field "Main" to condensed

So; like Hank Wangford in search of "the Lonesome Yodel" I climbed onto
Rosinanti #2 and set forth:

4.5: still there.

7.1.4: gone.

That looks like a deliberate choice.

Mind you, doing this in RR 4.5:

set the textStyle of fld "gg" to condensed

is horrible: it does NOT condense the text at all,
merely  makes things look like something bitmapped from about 1996.

Opening the stack containing a field with condensed text that I authored
in RR 4.5 in LC 8.1.9
is interesting insofar as:

the text in fld "gg" does NOT look condensed, BUT on doing this in the
Message Box:

put the textStyle of fld "gg"

I get "condensed" . . .

A bad case of 'The Phantom of the Opera'.

Best, Richmond.


On 17/2/2018 5:41 am, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote:

> Did support for the text styles “expanded” and “condensed” disappear at some point from Livecode?
>
> I see in this that they were added in the misty past:
>
> http://docs.runrev.com/Property/HTMLText
>
> They are not in the dictionary now, or Font menu, and setting those with a script doesn’t work.
>
> I loved using those styles in Hypercard back in the day…
>
> Peter Bogdanoff
> ArtsInteractive
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Yes, Richmond, I had the same results trying to set text in LC 8.7. A script will set chars to “condensed” but the spacing doesn’t change, and the visual look is degraded. Maybe with a LC upgrade along the line somebody forgot about those styles, and no one noticed? I can understand that to maintain compatibility with HTML 5, the <condensed> and <expanded> tags might be dropped. But that should come much later.

Peter

> On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:02 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> That reference is all about htmlText . . .
>
> Having a look at Revolution Media Build 950 Version 4.0.0 on Mac OS 10.7.5 . . .
>
> [Not as daft as I look: always a good idea to hang onto old, licensed versions.]
>
> I found this:
>
> set the textStyle of line 1 of field "Main" to condensed
>
> So; like Hank Wangford in search of "the Lonesome Yodel" I climbed onto Rosinanti #2 and set forth:
>
> 4.5: still there.
>
> 7.1.4: gone.
>
> That looks like a deliberate choice.
>
> Mind you, doing this in RR 4.5:
>
> set the textStyle of fld "gg" to condensed
>
> is horrible: it does NOT condense the text at all,
> merely  makes things look like something bitmapped from about 1996.
>
> Opening the stack containing a field with condensed text that I authored in RR 4.5 in LC 8.1.9
> is interesting insofar as:
>
> the text in fld "gg" does NOT look condensed, BUT on doing this in the Message Box:
>
> put the textStyle of fld "gg"
>
> I get "condensed" . . .
>
> A bad case of 'The Phantom of the Opera'.
>
> Best, Richmond.
>
>
> On 17/2/2018 5:41 am, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote:
>> Did support for the text styles “expanded” and “condensed” disappear at some point from Livecode?
>>
>> I see in this that they were added in the misty past:
>>
>> http://docs.runrev.com/Property/HTMLText
>>
>> They are not in the dictionary now, or Font menu, and setting those with a script doesn’t work.
>>
>> I loved using those styles in Hypercard back in the day…
>>
>> Peter Bogdanoff
>> ArtsInteractive
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
LC no longer manipulates text directly to produce styles, it now uses the
equivalent font. This happens with all text styles including bold, italic,
etc. If the font family includes a styled version it is used, otherwise
there is no change.

I can't remember if the swap happens automatically in all cases. Recently I
needed a bold font and it didn't work, I had to install the bold version of
the font and use that instead. I think that was because the bold version
was its own font family.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com



On February 17, 2018 10:12:24 AM Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, Richmond, I had the same results trying to set text in LC 8.7. A
> script will set chars to “condensed” but the spacing doesn’t change, and
> the visual look is degraded. Maybe with a LC upgrade along the line
> somebody forgot about those styles, and no one noticed? I can understand
> that to maintain compatibility with HTML 5, the <condensed> and <expanded>
> tags might be dropped. But that should come much later.
>
> Peter
>
>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:02 AM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> That reference is all about htmlText . . .
>>
>> Having a look at Revolution Media Build 950 Version 4.0.0 on Mac OS 10.7.5
>> . . .
>>
>> [Not as daft as I look: always a good idea to hang onto old, licensed
>> versions.]
>>
>> I found this:
>>
>> set the textStyle of line 1 of field "Main" to condensed
>>
>> So; like Hank Wangford in search of "the Lonesome Yodel" I climbed onto
>> Rosinanti #2 and set forth:
>>
>> 4.5: still there.
>>
>> 7.1.4: gone.
>>
>> That looks like a deliberate choice.
>>
>> Mind you, doing this in RR 4.5:
>>
>> set the textStyle of fld "gg" to condensed
>>
>> is horrible: it does NOT condense the text at all,
>> merely  makes things look like something bitmapped from about 1996.
>>
>> Opening the stack containing a field with condensed text that I authored in
>> RR 4.5 in LC 8.1.9
>> is interesting insofar as:
>>
>> the text in fld "gg" does NOT look condensed, BUT on doing this in the
>> Message Box:
>>
>> put the textStyle of fld "gg"
>>
>> I get "condensed" . . .
>>
>> A bad case of 'The Phantom of the Opera'.
>>
>> Best, Richmond.
>>
>>
>> On 17/2/2018 5:41 am, Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Did support for the text styles “expanded” and “condensed” disappear at
>>> some point from Livecode?
>>>
>>> I see in this that they were added in the misty past:
>>>
>>> http://docs.runrev.com/Property/HTMLText
>>>
>>> They are not in the dictionary now, or Font menu, and setting those with a
>>> script doesn’t work.
>>>
>>> I loved using those styles in Hypercard back in the day…
>>>
>>> Peter Bogdanoff
>>> ArtsInteractive
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode



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Re: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
How odd. Last Friday I ran into the same thing, and came to that conclusion deductively, because I tried using bold style with a font that I know didn't have that typeface.

Bob S


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 08:51 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> LC no longer manipulates text directly to produce styles, it now uses the equivalent font. This happens with all text styles including bold, italic, etc. If the font family includes a styled version it is used, otherwise there is no change.
>
> I can't remember if the swap happens automatically in all cases. Recently I needed a bold font and it didn't work, I had to install the bold version of the font and use that instead. I think that was because the bold version was its own font family.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
> HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
On 17 Feb 2018, at 16:51, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

> LC no longer manipulates text directly to produce styles, it now uses
> the equivalent font.

And as a typographer, let me say YAY!
Distorted type hurts my soul. :(

k

---

Keith Martin
Senior Lecturer, LCC (University of the Arts London)

---
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RE: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Keith +1

MS Word is the worst when it comes to this. I once spent 1/2 day trying to
figure out why a PDFed Word file had font issues. I turns out that this Word
doc was being passed around and not all users had all the fonts or faces. So
Word changed the text using an unavailable font face by "bold"ing the plain
face by fattening up the glyphs. So the kerning changed and when the doc was
PDFed Acrobat could not figure out what was going on with the fonts and did
not embed the proper fonts. The PDF would not pass pre-flight. The only
solution was to re-style the affect text with the proper face. (funny note:
After fixing the file about 3 years later we received a different file with
the same problems and after some investigation we found out it was the
"grandson" of that original problematic file)
This was a few years ago but from what I remember the are 3 ways a font can
be described: 1) the displayed font name. 2) the internal font name 3) the
font face description. This was evident by looking at the font name/faces as
presented to the user in MS word, InDesign and Windows fonts control panel
(not to mention the file names many times being cryptic at best).

<rant>I started using TT and Type 1 fonts for composition back in 1994. We
had many font issues over the years and I figured that the industry would
get it together. In 2018 there are still font naming inconsistencies between
various programs and OS platforms. When will this ever get straightened
out?</rant>

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Keith Martin via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 10:46 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Keith Martin
Subject: Re: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

On 17 Feb 2018, at 16:51, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

> LC no longer manipulates text directly to produce styles, it now uses
> the equivalent font.

And as a typographer, let me say YAY!
Distorted type hurts my soul. :(

k

---

Keith Martin
Senior Lecturer, LCC (University of the Arts London)

---
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Re: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Probably not. As I like to point out on occasion, everyone subscribes to standards. Their OWN standards. ;-)

Bob S



> On Feb 20, 2018, at 08:34 , Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> <rant>I started using TT and Type 1 fonts for composition back in 1994. We
> had many font issues over the years and I figured that the industry would
> get it together. In 2018 there are still font naming inconsistencies between
> various programs and OS platforms. When will this ever get straightened
> out?</rant>
>
> Ralph DiMola


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Re: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
On 20 Feb 2018, at 16:34, Ralph DiMola wrote:

> We
> had many font issues over the years and I figured that the industry
> would
> get it together.

Given that the font world calls eighteenth century font designs 'Modern'
and early/mid 19th century sans-serifs 'Grotesque', I wouldn't hold my
breath... ;)

k


---

Keith Martin
Senior Lecturer, LCC (University of the Arts London)

---
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RE: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
K,

 

That's a amusing observation of font names.

 

If a MS Word doc is using the Adobe Helvetica and the next user only has a
MonoType Helvetica, then Word will substitute the MonoType font without
warning. Then if the next user has neither font, Word will substitute a
"Helvetica like" font, again without warning. A PDF created from this
document will be problematic when pre-flighted..

 

I'm planning to use LC to produce "print ready" PDFs. +100 to the mother
ship for removing LiveCode's phony font styling .

 

 

Ralph DiMola

IT Director

Evergreen Information Services

[hidden email]

Phone: 518-636-3998 Ex:11

Cell: 518-796-9332

 

From: Keith Martin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 12:04 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Ralph DiMola
Subject: Re: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

 

On 20 Feb 2018, at 16:34, Ralph DiMola wrote:

We
had many font issues over the years and I figured that the industry would
get it together.

Given that the font world calls eighteenth century font designs 'Modern' and
early/mid 19th century sans-serifs 'Grotesque', I wouldn't hold my breath...
;)

k

  _____  

Keith Martin
Senior Lecturer, LCC (University of the Arts London)

  _____  

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Re: Text Styles: Expanded, condensed

J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
Having come up through the golden age of digital prepress, I learned early on that either everyone working on a project that was involved in type had to have the exact same fonts from the exact same foundries, or else risk any number of issues. Nothing worse than getting the finished product and THEN discovering there were type issues.

There used to be multi-user font server technologies that allowed one font library to be shared between multiple users, and the way it did it is for display purposes, the end users only got access to the raster fonts, which were themselves free, and when access to the high resolution vector versions was required, only one user could do so at a time.

Since the raster versions are so rarely accessed, this was a quite workable system, although not very much to the liking of the font foundries, as you can imagine. I'm not sure what ever happened to those systems. There were two I was familiar with, one was Suitcase by Extensis, and the other I cannot remember the name of, Font wrangler or something like it. There are others now, including an offerring from Adobe, but I doubt all of them offer font sharing.

Professional products allow the embedding of typefaces in their documents. Word is not one of those. That is a shame because Word is still to this day the best book layout application, providing for footnote links that flow with the anchors, so you don't have to manually redo all your footnotes every time the document reflows.

Bob S
 

> On Feb 20, 2018, at 09:33 , Ralph DiMola via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> K,
>
>
>
> That's a amusing observation of font names.
>
>
>
> If a MS Word doc is using the Adobe Helvetica and the next user only has a
> MonoType Helvetica, then Word will substitute the MonoType font without
> warning. Then if the next user has neither font, Word will substitute a
> "Helvetica like" font, again without warning. A PDF created from this
> document will be problematic when pre-flighted..
>
>
>
> I'm planning to use LC to produce "print ready" PDFs. +100 to the mother
> ship for removing LiveCode's phony font styling .
>
>
>
>
>
> Ralph DiMola
>
> IT Director
>
> Evergreen Information Services
>
> [hidden email]


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