The end of OS9 development

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The end of OS9 development

mwieder
All-

Now that my domain's back on line (if anyone tried to email me and got
bounced, please try again) I can finally say:

R.I.P. CodeWarrior

Freescale/Metrowerks finally pulled the plug yesterday. The web pages
that describe CodeWarrior 10 are still online, but there is no mention
anymore of either the OS9 platform or IDE. In a way I have to say it's
about time - Apple stopped development of OS9 some four years ago, but
it marks the end of a 12-year run of being the dominant development
platform for the Macintosh.

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Re: The end of OS9 development

Dan Shafer-2
Mark....

Yeah, I kept getting email bounces but be aware that I got your upgrade fee
for RevCon West.

And FWIW, I'm another one who's happy to see OS 9 ride off into the sunset.
I suspect if Rev didn't have to keep making their stuff work with that
creaky OS, we'd have more stability on some of the more modern platforms.

Yes, I'm aware that some channels and users -- notably education -- haven't
been able to justify upgrading hardware to run OS X, but as you say, it's
been four years. Time to bite the bullet, I say.



On 5/6/06, Mark Wieder <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> All-
>
> Now that my domain's back on line (if anyone tried to email me and got
> bounced, please try again) I can finally say:
>
> R.I.P. CodeWarrior
>
> Freescale/Metrowerks finally pulled the plug yesterday. The web pages
> that describe CodeWarrior 10 are still online, but there is no mention
> anymore of either the OS9 platform or IDE. In a way I have to say it's
> about time - Apple stopped development of OS9 some four years ago, but
> it marks the end of a 12-year run of being the dominant development
> platform for the Macintosh.
>
> --
> -Mark Wieder
> [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>



--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: The end of OS9 development

Judy Perry
Hardware's not been our particular problem (yes, my Frankenlab STILL runs
OS 9!).

We have some POC microarchitecture sim that's Classic-only (I've just
tried to Google it but, well, ignorance is bliss and I can't rightly
recall: CPUSim?  I dunno).

BUT, while looking for the thingy we're tied to, I came upon this article:

http://www.sosresearch.org/caale/caalesimulators.html

"How Computers Really Work: A Children's Guide," [authors: Shirley
Crossley, Hugh Osborne, and William Yurcik, published in the Proceedings
of the Workshop on Computer Architecture Education (WCAE), Anchorage AK
USA, May 2002.]

This just seems SO DOABLE in Rev...

Any thoughts, fellow educators?

Judy


On Sat, 6 May 2006, Dan Shafer wrote:

> Mark....
>
> Yes, I'm aware that some channels and users -- notably education -- haven't
> been able to justify upgrading hardware to run OS X, but as you say, it's
> been four years. Time to bite the bullet, I say.

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Re: The end of OS9 development

mwieder
Judy-

Saturday, May 6, 2006, 11:23:21 PM, you wrote:

> BUT, while looking for the thingy we're tied to, I came upon this article:

> http://www.sosresearch.org/caale/caalesimulators.html

> Any thoughts, fellow educators?

"An element of fun is added by making Chip ticklish - if the mouse
pointer touches Chip he will laugh or tell the user to stop tickling
him!"

--
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Re: The end of OS9 development

Jeff Reynolds-3
In reply to this post by mwieder
Dan,

Its to tell K12 to bite the bullet if they had a bullet to bite. in  
schools It is not a matter of justifying anything, its a matter of  
the money just plain not being there to buy the software, or in many  
cases, the hardware, to bump everything up to OSX. i could easily  
justify that there be less than 3 yr old computers in the schools,  
with updated systems and apps, and all teachers paid a fair wage, but  
pigs will be flying from somewhere before this happens in our current  
culture. in the schools tech money is going away quickly when things  
get tight. teachers (and the few lab/tech folks left around) are  
happy to just keep things going as is (that means a whole mix of  
machines and operating systems). Getting the money and resources  
together to migrate all the systems to osx just aint gonna happen in  
most situations. what will happen in most cases is the current os9  
machines will live on with os9 till they die (and its amazing to see  
how long some macs can hang on even in the war zone of a classroom or  
computer lab!). anything bought post osx will have osx on them, but  
then again upgrading them all to the latest and greatest or even a  
single standard OSX version wont usually happen. even in the labs  
where they get a big hunk of money to get a whole lab of computers at  
once, things start to age with OSs quickly and the money usually  
isn't there a few years later to bump things up.

I ran what was considered a very well funded high school lab in  
Monterey and we couldnt afford to bump all the computers up to the  
latest osx systems and the older computers couldn't run osx, but i  
needed them to have enough computers for a whole class at 1 student  
per computer. It was more a game of just getting things as best i  
could to run an optimal set of applications to cover as many bases as  
possible w/in the budget.

All my education applications will have to be delivered with OS9 apps  
for the next few years, its a fact i just cant get around. even the  
distributors want it since its still, and for the near future, a good  
chunk of their market they dont want to give up. its going to make  
for some tricky fiddling with rev in the future i expect. i hope that  
rev 261 can live on into the near future well enough to provide the  
OSX, OS9 and Win apps i need before i am forced to start in 261 o  
create the os9, then move up to a newer version to create OSX and  
other newer OS apps then end with a dual development path (ugh!)...

I agree we need to move on to better systems and drop the old ones,  
but it just means education gets the shaft yet again. And its a game  
of economics again since the education is the poorest retail section  
out there so of little concern to business, more the shame. It is,  
unfortunately, a very vicious circle and it just flushes the  
education market. Its funny since many of my students could have  
utilized the power of a newer computer better than most of the  
business folks i know!

I encourage all of you get out in your local school and talk to the  
teachers and tech folks (if they have any) and see what its like and  
how you might help out. You may be lucky and have a rich district or  
one that has put technology on the front burner, but in the average  
school its tight. They can also usually use your help. even if its  
just volunteering to help man the lab at lunch or after school,  
mentor a bright computer kid, even fix some broken or cranky  
machines, do some seminars for teachers and technology. Believe me  
you will get a new appreciation for the K-12 educational system and  
how hard things can be stacked against it in many ways. But a small  
amount of help and grease in the right places can make great things  
happen. Its also greatly rewarding and amazing when you see some of  
the things that the kids can create!

cheers,

Jeffrey Reynolds



On May 7, 2006, at 1:00 PM, [hidden email]  
wrote:

> Yes, I'm aware that some channels and users -- notably education --  
> haven't
> been able to justify upgrading hardware to run OS X, but as you  
> say, it's
> been four years. Time to bite the bullet, I say.

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Re: The end of OS9 development

mwieder
Jeffrey-

Sunday, May 7, 2006, 9:13:18 PM, you wrote:

> All my education applications will have to be delivered with OS9 apps
> for the next few years, its a fact i just cant get around. even the

...and therein lies the rub. Not only are there *very* few developers
still cranking out OS9 apps, but there are no development tools
currently shipping to produce them. If you haven't already got an old
version of CodeWarrior or a rev 2.6.1 OS9 engine or something similar
you're just not going to be making OS9 apps. And there's very little
incentive to do so, given the increasingly smaller market.

...and I don't expect any OS9 rev engines any more, since they were
built with CodeWarrior.

--
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 [hidden email]

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Re: The end of OS9 development

Andre Garzia

But on the bright side, you can trust that OS9 will not change or  
have new releases that break compatibility, thus, your old Rev 2.6 or  
CodeWarrior IDE suits the development perfectly. It's not like OS X  
that each release introduce new bugs, I mean, features :-)

For example webcore changed from 10.3 to 10.4 and lots of developers  
had to quick patch their tools. This kind of stuff will not happen in  
OS9 apps...

(yeah I am really trying to see something positive in working with OS 9)

Cheers
andre

On May 8, 2006, at 2:25 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> Jeffrey-
>
> Sunday, May 7, 2006, 9:13:18 PM, you wrote:
>
>> All my education applications will have to be delivered with OS9 apps
>> for the next few years, its a fact i just cant get around. even the
>
> ...and therein lies the rub. Not only are there *very* few developers
> still cranking out OS9 apps, but there are no development tools
> currently shipping to produce them. If you haven't already got an old
> version of CodeWarrior or a rev 2.6.1 OS9 engine or something similar
> you're just not going to be making OS9 apps. And there's very little
> incentive to do so, given the increasingly smaller market.
>
> ...and I don't expect any OS9 rev engines any more, since they were
> built with CodeWarrior.
>
> --
> -Mark Wieder
>  [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: The end of OS9 development

Jeff Reynolds-3
In reply to this post by mwieder
Mark,

yep its a problem for the education market. Since many schools just  
cant afford to upgrade all their machines at once it means they have  
a smaller selection of older (and sometimes outdated) content to use.  
the OSX only programs then dont get bought sometimes unless they have  
enough machines to warrant it and then its not running on all the  
lab's computers, just the newer machines with OSX. This makes for a  
very strange dynamics in the education market, very different from  
other markets where as dan pointed out, once a feature/package  
justifies the upgrade they just buy it. not so in the education  
market in many places. Another up-and-coming market in education is  
the home schooling market, and there you tend to find very wide range  
of computer OSs, and in many cases very limited budgets and technical  
knowledge for upgrading systems.

I realize this is not Rev's fault at all. The solution is not to  
force the software market to be beholding to fix all this, but to be  
aware of it and help out as much as possible where possible (since  
education seems to be a second class citizen in many respects). The  
real solution is to properly fund schools, but thats a huge and  
tangled mess of a problem. I was just pointing out the situation in  
K-12 schools is very different from much of the rest of the markets.  
I am just hoping that rev 261 keeps running well for the upgrades in  
OSX and Windoz for the next few years while i still need to create  
OS9 computers.

Sorry education tends to get the dirt kicked on it a lot and i just  
have to speak up when folks say the solution is for schools to just  
upgrade.

Jeffrey Reynolds



On May 8, 2006, at 1:00 PM, [hidden email]  
wrote:

> ...and therein lies the rub. Not only are there *very* few developers
> still cranking out OS9 apps, but there are no development tools
> currently shipping to produce them. If you haven't already got an old
> version of CodeWarrior or a rev 2.6.1 OS9 engine or something similar
> you're just not going to be making OS9 apps. And there's very little
> incentive to do so, given the increasingly smaller market.
>
> ...and I don't expect any OS9 rev engines any more, since they were
> built with CodeWarrior.

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Re: The end of OS9 development

mwieder
Jeffrey-

Monday, May 8, 2006, 12:53:04 PM, you wrote:

> Sorry education tends to get the dirt kicked on it a lot and i just
> have to speak up when folks say the solution is for schools to just
> upgrade.

Back in the day, Apple had a fine subversive K12 educational program -
donate lots of computers into the schools, get the kids started
learning on them early. Now we have to rely on aid from Qatar.

But the upgrade from OS9 to OSX is getting harder now. The new intel
macs will not run Classic mode, short of a slow SheepShaver sort of
solution. (Whew - try saying that a couple of times fast) What this
means for the educational market is that a whole new batch of software
will have to be purchased at the same time as the hardware upgrade,
since the old OS9 programs won't run.

--
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 [hidden email]

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Re: The end of OS9 development

mwieder
In reply to this post by Andre Garzia
Andre-

Monday, May 8, 2006, 11:00:42 AM, you wrote:

> But on the bright side, you can trust that OS9 will not change or
> have new releases that break compatibility, thus, your old Rev 2.6 or

Yes. That's also the nice thing about speaking Latin.

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Re: The end of OS9 development

Martin Baxter-3
In reply to this post by mwieder
Mark Wieder wrote:

> Jeffrey-
>
> Sunday, May 7, 2006, 9:13:18 PM, you wrote:
>
>> All my education applications will have to be delivered with OS9 apps
>> for the next few years, its a fact i just cant get around. even the
>
> ...and therein lies the rub. Not only are there *very* few developers
> still cranking out OS9 apps, but there are no development tools
> currently shipping to produce them. If you haven't already got an old
> version of CodeWarrior or a rev 2.6.1 OS9 engine or something similar
> you're just not going to be making OS9 apps. And there's very little
> incentive to do so, given the increasingly smaller market.
>
> ...and I don't expect any OS9 rev engines any more, since they were
> built with CodeWarrior.
>

So what exactly is the status of Revolution on OS9? Has there been an
announcement about it? The Runrev Site does not advertise compatibility,
however you can order RR Studio Classic from the Rev online shop. If
anybody knows, could they please tell.

Martin Baxter

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Re: The end of OS9 development

xtalkprogrammer
Hello Martin,

All I know about it, is from the web site. It says that Revolution  
2.7 for Mac OS 9 will be released soon. Also, the standalone builder  
tells me that an engine for Mac OS 9, as well as Linux and Unix, will  
be available during the 2.7.x cycle.

Although I completely understand that Mac OS 9 is frozen now, some of  
my clients prefer to save as much money as possible on hardware and  
want me to build standalones for their old machines. What I'm making  
for them doesn't need a dual G5 or an Intel, they just need software  
that works. Although I can make standalones by saving my work in  
legacy format and building the Mac OS 9 standalone in Rev 2.6.1, it  
would save me time if I could build all standalones at once. I hope  
that another two or three releases will be made available for Mac OS  
9, somehow, before RunRev Ltd completely drops it.

Best,

Mark

--

Economy-x-Talk
Consultancy and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

Salery is the easiest way to get your own web store on-line: http://
www.salery.biz/salery.html



Op 9-mei-2006, om 9:00 heeft Martin Baxter het volgende geschreven:

> Mark Wieder wrote:
>> Jeffrey-
>> Sunday, May 7, 2006, 9:13:18 PM, you wrote:
>>> All my education applications will have to be delivered with OS9  
>>> apps
>>> for the next few years, its a fact i just cant get around. even the
>> ...and therein lies the rub. Not only are there *very* few developers
>> still cranking out OS9 apps, but there are no development tools
>> currently shipping to produce them. If you haven't already got an old
>> version of CodeWarrior or a rev 2.6.1 OS9 engine or something similar
>> you're just not going to be making OS9 apps. And there's very little
>> incentive to do so, given the increasingly smaller market.
>> ...and I don't expect any OS9 rev engines any more, since they were
>> built with CodeWarrior.
>
> So what exactly is the status of Revolution on OS9? Has there been  
> an announcement about it? The Runrev Site does not advertise  
> compatibility, however you can order RR Studio Classic from the Rev  
> online shop. If anybody knows, could they please tell.
>
> Martin Baxter

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Kind regards,

Drs. Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consultancy and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
Facebook: http://facebook.com/LiveCode.Beginner
KvK: 50277553
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Re: The end of OS9 development

Martin Baxter-3
Thanks Mark,

That is the situation as I understood it too, but some comments in this
thread could be taken as suggesting that others know or believe differently.

I agree with your comments. It is inevitable that OS9 support will be
dropped at some point. But I do hope that due warning will be given
before this happens, rather than after. We too have to plan ahead.

I am in the same position as you, with needing to support clients who
run OS9. And I wouldn't criticise them for it because I understand their
position, indeed I use OS9 myself for tasks where I have no compelling
reason to upgrade existing software that works fine. Some time ago I
moved much of my own work to WinXP to escape the crippling economics of
Apple ownership. When it comes to the crunch I would probably advise my
clients to consider that too, and only convert to X if they can afford
to feed Apple on an annual basis.

Sounds like when the Classic engine actually arrives then I should
upgrade while the going's good. :-)

Martin Baxter

Mark Schonewille wrote:

> Hello Martin,
>
> All I know about it, is from the web site. It says that Revolution 2.7
> for Mac OS 9 will be released soon. Also, the standalone builder tells
> me that an engine for Mac OS 9, as well as Linux and Unix, will be
> available during the 2.7.x cycle.
>
> Although I completely understand that Mac OS 9 is frozen now, some of my
> clients prefer to save as much money as possible on hardware and want me
> to build standalones for their old machines. What I'm making for them
> doesn't need a dual G5 or an Intel, they just need software that works.
> Although I can make standalones by saving my work in legacy format and
> building the Mac OS 9 standalone in Rev 2.6.1, it would save me time if
> I could build all standalones at once. I hope that another two or three
> releases will be made available for Mac OS 9, somehow, before RunRev Ltd
> completely drops it.
>
> Best,
>
> Mark
>
> --
>
> Economy-x-Talk
> Consultancy and Software Engineering
> http://economy-x-talk.com
> http://www.salery.biz
>
> Salery is the easiest way to get your own web store on-line:
> http://www.salery.biz/salery.html
>
>
>
> Op 9-mei-2006, om 9:00 heeft Martin Baxter het volgende geschreven:
>
>> Mark Wieder wrote:
>>> Jeffrey-
>>> Sunday, May 7, 2006, 9:13:18 PM, you wrote:
>>>> All my education applications will have to be delivered with OS9 apps
>>>> for the next few years, its a fact i just cant get around. even the
>>> ...and therein lies the rub. Not only are there *very* few developers
>>> still cranking out OS9 apps, but there are no development tools
>>> currently shipping to produce them. If you haven't already got an old
>>> version of CodeWarrior or a rev 2.6.1 OS9 engine or something similar
>>> you're just not going to be making OS9 apps. And there's very little
>>> incentive to do so, given the increasingly smaller market.
>>> ...and I don't expect any OS9 rev engines any more, since they were
>>> built with CodeWarrior.
>>
>> So what exactly is the status of Revolution on OS9? Has there been an
>> announcement about it? The Runrev Site does not advertise
>> compatibility, however you can order RR Studio Classic from the Rev
>> online shop. If anybody knows, could they please tell.
>>
>> Martin Baxter
>
> _______________________________________________


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Re: The end of OS9 development

masmit
Of course I understand that everyones case is different, but I'm  
always a little baffled when I read things like this. What is it  
that's cripplingly costly about owning an Apple computer? I've  
managed to keep up with OS X upgrades, at less than the cost of  
keeping up with Revolution Studio upgrades. I'm genuinely curious as  
to what costs so much, particularly in the context of OS9 machines,  
which obviously haven't been replaced for at least 3 or 4 years.

Best,

Mark

On 9 May 2006, at 11:04, Martin Baxter wrote:

> Some time ago I moved much of my own work to WinXP to escape the  
> crippling economics of Apple ownership.

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Re: The end of OS9 development

Andre Garzia
In reply to this post by mwieder
Mark,

I was doing an anatomy and fisiology course and the teachers used  
that same phrase about latin to explain why the names were so  
complicated.

:-)

Cheers
andre

PS: which still can't name all the bones in the hand...

On May 9, 2006, at 2:33 AM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> Andre-
>
> Monday, May 8, 2006, 11:00:42 AM, you wrote:
>
>> But on the bright side, you can trust that OS9 will not change or
>> have new releases that break compatibility, thus, your old Rev 2.6 or
>
> Yes. That's also the nice thing about speaking Latin.
>
> --
> -Mark Wieder
>  [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your  
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: The end of OS9 development

mwieder
In reply to this post by Martin Baxter-3
Martin-

Tuesday, May 9, 2006, 12:00:30 AM, you wrote:

> So what exactly is the status of Revolution on OS9? Has there been an
> announcement about it? The Runrev Site does not advertise compatibility,
> however you can order RR Studio Classic from the Rev online shop. If
> anybody knows, could they please tell.

I don't have the inside word on anything, but the point of my original
posting is that CodeWarrior for the Mac is *dead* officially as of
last week. And since that's what the OS9 rev engine is built with, I
don't expect any future updates, and that would include the 2.7
builds. That in spite of the outdated notes on the web site - I rather
expect those to disappear soon as well. My guess would be that the
2.6.1 engine is the end of the line for OS9.

--
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Re: The end of OS9 development

Stephen Barncard
My impression (also hearsay) was that the Rev team is using
*something else* besides CodeWarrior to create an OS9 version, it's
probably require major rewriting (and that's a lot harder than
importing a HC stack!) and that is the reason for the delays.

I would not assume that Codewarrior is the only game in town, nor
that Rev's silence about it would indicate that they have given up on
9. Not only have they the formidable task of rebuilding the app with
a new compiler, but also adding the new feature set and making sure
it's synchronized with the other platforms.

It has been announced by Rev enough times that their commitment to
the platform is not over and until they say otherwise, I'd bet
they'll keep their promise.

>Martin-
>
>Tuesday, May 9, 2006, 12:00:30 AM, you wrote:
>
>>  So what exactly is the status of Revolution on OS9? Has there been an
>>  announcement about it? The Runrev Site does not advertise compatibility,
>>  however you can order RR Studio Classic from the Rev online shop. If
>>  anybody knows, could they please tell.
>
>I don't have the inside word on anything, but the point of my original
>posting is that CodeWarrior for the Mac is *dead* officially as of
>last week. And since that's what the OS9 rev engine is built with, I
>don't expect any future updates, and that would include the 2.7
>builds. That in spite of the outdated notes on the web site - I rather
>expect those to disappear soon as well. My guess would be that the
>2.6.1 engine is the end of the line for OS9.
>
>--
>-Mark Wieder
>  [hidden email]

--
stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
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Re: The end of OS9 development

Andre Garzia
In reply to this post by mwieder

Mark,

why can't RunRev use the last CodeWarrior version to build Rev 2.7  
for OS9? I am sure they bought the last CodeWarrior version for OS9  
before the cancellation by Freescale. Is there any reason why they  
can't use that version?

Cheers
andre

On May 9, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> I don't have the inside word on anything, but the point of my original
> posting is that CodeWarrior for the Mac is *dead* officially as of
> last week. And since that's what the OS9 rev engine is built with, I
> don't expect any future updates, and that would include the 2.7
> builds. That in spite of the outdated notes on the web site - I rather
> expect those to disappear soon as well. My guess would be that the
> 2.6.1 engine is the end of the line for OS9.

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Re: The end of OS9 development

Stephen Barncard
>why can't RunRev use the last CodeWarrior version to build Rev 2.7 for OS9?

        Probably because they used to use CW for everything, saw the
change coming, and moved to *something else* to cover the most used
platforms. This could involve a lot of customization of libraries and
rewriting glue code.

Cross-platform engine building is not a trivial task. There's a lot
to 'hook up'.

        I would guess that the *something else* they make the engine
with now would be an expandable, robust team-oriented system with
modules to create code for different platforms/processors. I'm
figuring that the OS9 module for *something else* was not available
at the time they switched systems, and got the module late or had one
developed.

        In order to efficiently make and market a cross-platform
product such as Rev, feature synchronization is very important. I've
noticed there don't seem to be too many platform-specific problems
lately - the problems seem to track over the Mac/PC void.

        Using the OLD CodeWarrior now would be a maintenance
nightmare. The Rev team need that "write once, use anywhere" thing
too.

sqb


>Mark,
>
>why can't RunRev use the last CodeWarrior version to build Rev 2.7
>for OS9? I am sure they bought the last CodeWarrior version for OS9
>before the cancellation by Freescale. Is there any reason why they
>can't use that version?
>
>Cheers
>andre
>

--
stephen barncard
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Re: The end of OS9 development

mwieder
In reply to this post by Andre Garzia
Andre-

Tuesday, May 9, 2006, 10:42:49 AM, you wrote:

> why can't RunRev use the last CodeWarrior version to build Rev 2.7
> for OS9? I am sure they bought the last CodeWarrior version for OS9
> before the cancellation by Freescale. Is there any reason why they  
> can't use that version?

Don't know. This is all guesswork on my part. I do know that there was
a problem with the 2.6 release that needed an update to CW9 to fix, so
I assume that the newer CW versions more or less kept track with the
header changes from Apple (or whatever it was that kept CW8 from being
able to compile the engine).

--
-Mark Wieder
 [hidden email]

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