Vector images?

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Re: Vector images?

Mark Waddingham-2
On 2015-10-21 15:18, Richmond wrote:

> On 21/10/15 12:48, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Well, vector images are very widely used, and they do have the
>>> advantage over bitmapped ones in that they don't go "all fuzzy"
>>> when they are resized: that, at the very least, is a big plus, and IF
>>> (??????) the Geometry Manager is 'whatever' vector images
>>> would sit very nicely with that.
>>
>> The only reasonable answer I can come up with (beyond general
>> intransigence of a behemoth) is that SVG is expensive (time wise) to
>> render. Far more expensive than scaling and rendering a pre-computed
>> image.
>>
> Of course, you could think about using a different vector image format
> . . .

All vector image formats are more expensive to render than a
pre-rendered image. (The advantage of them, of course, is that they can
be rendered at any size with no loss of quality). Note that this
*rendering* I'm talking about not parsing the textual form into
something which can then be iterated over and rendered.

> I know that SVG "is" the vector graphics standard, but that hasn't
> stopped any one adopting
> other formats that are, possibly, less complex.

There's two vectors of complexity here - complexity of processing the
input format, and complexity of the underlying rendering engine required
to render them.

Most vector graphics formats are largely equivalent in their
requirements on a rendering engine (although SVG does have a fair bit of
'filter' stuff which needs some reasonably heavy-lifting - that is if
you want 100% support).

> At the risk of sounding totally cretinous (not that that would be for
> the first time), both Illustrator and Inkscape
> can export EPS files; and if they can do that on Macintosh, Windows
> and Linux . . .

EPS is actually just a very well structured version of PostScript -
which (in theory) requires a full PostScript interpreter to render. That
being said, from memory, Illustrator has always had a 'special form' of
EPS where it uses only restricted sets of operators in a way which
doesn't require interpretation (it's quite neat actually - the prologue
contains the definitions for the operators so that such an EPS file can
still be directly printed on a PostScript printer; whilst the file can
also be understood by things which don't have a full PostScript
interpreter).

So, anyway, there's no problem with SVG in general - I think it is the
best thing to choose these days.

My comments were merely a small warning to say that - remember that
rendering vector graphics on the fly is quite an expensive operation, so
it might be that initial uses will require a bit of scripting to ensure
things written using them work well at a reasonable speed. i.e.
Precomputation where required. That being said, over time, I'm sure we
can come up with numerous ways the engine can help here to ensure that,
for the most common uses, the difference in rendering a vector image and
a normal image is (after initial setup time) not very much at all.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Vector images?

Bob Sneidar-2
I think that is the whole point behind the preview thumbnail that can be attached to the eps graphic. I suppose support for EPS would be better if we had a choice of using the preview as opposed to requiring a re-render each time the object was drawn.

Bob S


On Oct 21, 2015, at 06:38 , Mark Waddingham <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

EPS is actually just a very well structured version of PostScript - which (in theory) requires a full PostScript interpreter to render. That being said, from memory, Illustrator has always had a 'special form' of EPS where it uses only restricted sets of operators in a way which doesn't require interpretation (it's quite neat actually - the prologue contains the definitions for the operators so that such an EPS file can still be directly printed on a PostScript printer; whilst the file can also be understood by things which don't have a full PostScript interpreter).

So, anyway, there's no problem with SVG in general - I think it is the best thing to choose these days.

My comments were merely a small warning to say that - remember that rendering vector graphics on the fly is quite an expensive operation, so it might be that initial uses will require a bit of scripting to ensure things written using them work well at a reasonable speed. i.e. Precomputation where required. That being said, over time, I'm sure we can come up with numerous ways the engine can help here to ensure that, for the most common uses, the difference in rendering a vector image and a normal image is (after initial setup time) not very much at all.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

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Re: Vector images?

Mark Waddingham-2
On 2015-10-21 16:44, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> I think that is the whole point behind the preview thumbnail that can
> be attached to the eps graphic. I suppose support for EPS would be
> better if we had a choice of using the preview as opposed to requiring
> a re-render each time the object was drawn.

Well there is no, and has never been any, support for EPS in LiveCode
(or Revolution, or MetaCard) on any platform other an specific UNIX ones
a very long time ago.

The 'preview' thumbnails in EPS was more (I believe) so that they could
be dropped into applications such as DTP programs and you could see what
your EPS file would look like without the DTP program itself having to
have a full PostScript interpreter (which have always been quite large
and expensive to license). Of course, the expectation with such DTP
programs and such was that you would be printing to a full PostScript
capable printer which would happily understand the PostScript in the
EPS.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

* Whilst GhostScript has been around for a long time it is GPL and thus
there is no way to bundle it with a commercial program which uses it to
render EPS/PS without falling foul of the 'significant part of the
operation of the program' consideration however you slice and dice the
delivery of the code.

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Re: Vector images?

Terence Heaford-2
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2

> On 21 Oct 2015, at 10:28, Mark Waddingham <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  It is very similar to CoreGraphics (but actually has a number of features beyond which CG offers). e.g.
>     MCGContextCreate(-> myContext)
>     MCGContextSetRGBAFillColor(myContext, 1, 0, 0, 0.5)
>     MCGContextAddRectangle(myContext, [0, 0, 400, 400])
>     MCGContextFill(myContext)


Does this not do it? or similar?

-(void) drawRect: (CGRect) rect
{
    CGContextRef context = UIGraphicsGetCurrentContext();
 
    UIColor * redColor = [UIColor colorWithRed:1.0 green:0.0 blue:0.0 alpha:1.0];
 
    CGContextSetFillColorWithColor(context, redColor.CGColor);

    CGContextFillRect(context, self.bounds);
}


All the best

Terry
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Re: Vector images?

Mark Waddingham-2
On 2015-10-21 16:53, Terence Heaford wrote:

>> On 21 Oct 2015, at 10:28, Mark Waddingham <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  It is very similar to CoreGraphics (but actually has a number of
>> features beyond which CG offers). e.g.
>>     MCGContextCreate(-> myContext)
>>     MCGContextSetRGBAFillColor(myContext, 1, 0, 0, 0.5)
>>     MCGContextAddRectangle(myContext, [0, 0, 400, 400])
>>     MCGContextFill(myContext)
>
>
> Does this not do it? or similar?
>
> -(void) drawRect: (CGRect) rect
> {
>     CGContextRef context = UIGraphicsGetCurrentContext();
>
>     UIColor * redColor = [UIColor colorWithRed:1.0 green:0.0 blue:0.0
> alpha:1.0];
>
>     CGContextSetFillColorWithColor(context, redColor.CGColor);
>
>     CGContextFillRect(context, self.bounds);
> }
>

Yes - that would be the CG API version of the LibGraphics API - I did
say it was similar :)

I wasn't suggesting that ssmple code example was an example of features
LibGraphics has which CoreGraphics does not (although I can see how it
could be read like that - oops).

LibGraphics incorporates various features relating to bitmap effects in
its API. CoreGraphics only has 'drop-shadow' abilities - LibGraphics
does the whole stack of bitmap effects you see exposed via the
bitmapEffects property. It also has a number of gradient types which
CoreGraphics does not support.

Eventually LibGraphics will (hopefully) have APIs added to enable the
range of filter processing operations SVG allows - in order to expand
SVG support in the future (again, something CoreGraphics does not have).

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Vector images?

Bob Sneidar-2
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Adobe products also used the previews to make rendering large documents more efficient. You could choose to render each time or use the preview, kind of like a cache. That was back in the day when the horsepower for rendering was much less than it is today. I'm not sure how they go about it now.

The real problem with Postscript is and always has been, licensing. It's expensive. I doubt you could convince Adobe to allow you to include a postscript rendering engine in LC for free.

Bob S


On Oct 21, 2015, at 07:51 , Mark Waddingham <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

The 'preview' thumbnails in EPS was more (I believe) so that they could be dropped into applications such as DTP programs and you could see what your EPS file would look like without the DTP program itself having to have a full PostScript interpreter (which have always been quite large and expensive to license).

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Re: Vector images?

Bob Sneidar-2
Oh wait, you said that. :-)

Bob S


On Oct 21, 2015, at 08:02 , Bob Sneidar <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Adobe products also used the previews to make rendering large documents more efficient. You could choose to render each time or use the preview, kind of like a cache. That was back in the day when the horsepower for rendering was much less than it is today. I'm not sure how they go about it now.

The real problem with Postscript is and always has been, licensing. It's expensive. I doubt you could convince Adobe to allow you to include a postscript rendering engine in LC for free.

Bob S


On Oct 21, 2015, at 07:51 , Mark Waddingham <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

The 'preview' thumbnails in EPS was more (I believe) so that they could be dropped into applications such as DTP programs and you could see what your EPS file would look like without the DTP program itself having to have a full PostScript interpreter (which have always been quite large and expensive to license).


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Re: Vector images?

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami
In reply to this post by Mark Waddingham-2
"However it is important to remember that not everyone uses LiveCode to
the same ends - there will probably be as many people on this list who
would see SVG as a much lower priority than <insert feature which would
help their particular problem domain and endeavours with LiveCode>."


With all due respect for the team, your business goals, roadmap and
planning:

IMHO calling SVG "lower priority" this is again symptomatic of LC
Headquarters/Leadership, not realizing how significant "the presentation
layer" is  in today's world and this goes to the long delays in the
image and media processing and delivery features we have been asking for
nearly 15 years.

FIRST: At the upper end of the software business (think JP Morgan UX
designers using Axure for prototyping) the whole world of software
waking up to the how things work, there is a huge shift to the
"discovery" process in a client/software vendor relationship. This also
includes how things are done in house.  This also goes to the Agile mode
of development.  I (we) have to build a prototype of things to show
people whose response is going to be highly "biased to the presentation
layer of the "product"  and this has to be done "now" at the beginning
of the cycle.
and that whole "up front" design process is built on images, sound and
video with no code.

The consensus "get your front end clarified, signed of on by stack
holders first *then* start coding" is very broad.

if we cannot include vector graphs in the mix  from the get go, then
Livecode is seen as incompetent for the job, even it that job may be,
later, a full enterprise suite of tools for management, database, global
business etc.

So, excuse me for saying it, but I think it is a seriously flawed
concept to think that LC's, graphics, audio and video layers are somehow
second place in the over all scheme of what you need to do to make LC
successful in the future.

I do, really, have, on my team a UX designer for JP Morgan, and if I
were to ask her to play with LiveCode and she not could easily import
Vector graphics, or show video on all platforms easily;  she would have
to tell her boss that "Livecode will useless for our 1/2 million dollar
business project, we have to choose another platform."


SECOND: low end market: Richmond's "kiddie" world = 100,000's potential
adopters of the community platform at a very young age (I have a real
case here where I encouraged this man to have his grandson try LC to
learn programming) But as soon as the kid discovers he cannot import any
vector graphic of "Garfield the Cat" from his clip art web world... he
will ask his grandfather to suggest some other platform.


Ergo, please [my old, old rant] do not underestimate the importance of
the media delivery requirements, or think these are somehow "different"
from your business requirements. Yes, they may be for some client like
the water works of Seattle, but that is a small subset of your potential
future adopters through all levels, from million $ enterprise... all the
way down to teachers deciding "what shall I get for my class to  use to
tinker with code"

If the media delivery channel of the product (images, all formats,
video, sound) is sub par... you are out of the running on day one.

BR

Mark Waddingham wrote:

> On 2015-10-21 16:53, Terence Heaford wrote:
>>> On 21 Oct 2015, at 10:28, Mark Waddingham<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>
>>>   It is very similar to CoreGraphics (but actually has a number of
>>> features beyond which CG offers). e.g.
>>>      MCGContextCreate(->  myContext)
>>>      MCGContextSetRGBAFillColor(myContext, 1, 0, 0, 0.5)
>>>      MCGContextAddRectangle(myContext, [0, 0, 400, 400])
>>>      MCGContextFill(myContext)
>> Does this not do it? or similar?
>>
>> -(void) drawRect: (CGRect) rect
>> {
>>      CGContextRef context = UIGraphicsGetCurrentContext();
>>
>>      UIColor * redColor = [UIColor colorWithRed:1.0 green:0.0 blue:0.0
>> alpha:1.0];
>>
>>      CGContextSetFillColorWithColor(context, redColor.CGColor);
>>
>>      CGContextFillRect(context, self.bounds);
>> }
>>
>
> Yes - that would be the CG API version of the LibGraphics API - I did
> say it was similar :)
>
> I wasn't suggesting that ssmple code example was an example of features
> LibGraphics has which CoreGraphics does not (although I can see how it
> could be read like that - oops).
>
> LibGraphics incorporates various features relating to bitmap effects in
> its API. CoreGraphics only has 'drop-shadow' abilities - LibGraphics
> does the whole stack of bitmap effects you see exposed via the
> bitmapEffects property. It also has a number of gradient types which
> CoreGraphics does not support.
>
> Eventually LibGraphics will (hopefully) have APIs added to enable the
> range of filter processing operations SVG allows - in order to expand
> SVG support in the future (again, something CoreGraphics does not have).
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Mark.
>

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Re: Vector images?

RH
Well, I completely agree with the statement that for clients presentation
layer must be state of art and give a convincing experience, and LC should
give full support for building it easily.

I also see the big majority of applications needing this.

And vector inage support is a pressing must in my eyes.

Roland
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Re: Vector images?

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami
Brahmanathaswami wrote:

 > IMHO calling SVG "lower priority" this is again symptomatic of LC
 > Headquarters/Leadership, not realizing how significant "the
 > presentation layer" is  in today's world...
...
 > if we cannot include vector graphs in the mix  from the get go, then
 > Livecode is seen as incompetent for the job, even it that job may be,
 > later, a full enterprise suite of tools for management, database,
 > global business etc.

I think I'm missing something here.

We have vector graphics now as we've had for years, but we've been
limited to a set of primitives that include ovals, polygons, rectangles,
etc, but not Beziers or other more complex shapes, nor the ability to
mix types like arc, line, and Bezier in a single path.

SGV supports this, and to reinforce the scope of benefit for exposing
SGV data as a settable property for Skia to render, some of the issues
Mark Talluto has reported were for raster images  - but the only reason
he's using raster images at all is because he doesn't have SGV-style
paths to work with which would give him the shapes he needs even more
flexibly.

But here's where I'm confused:

When Trevor DeVore presented at our local LiveCode User Group meeting a
couple months ago, he showed us a Widget that allowed him to put SVG
data into it as easily as we set points in a polygon.

That seems very much like what you're looking for, and what Mark
Talluto's looking for, and many others.

Was I dreaming?

I'd thought there was an SVGIcon Widget for that purpose, no?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Vector images?

ScottR
SVG is LiveCode 8 widgets only.  AFAIK, in 8 the current "built in" vector graphic offering is characters from the FontAwesome font, and while you and I might be comfortable copying points from SVG files into LiveCode, I think you'd agree that's not exactly the best user experience. :-)

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media UX/UI Design

> On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:23 PM, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> When Trevor DeVore presented at our local LiveCode User Group meeting a couple months ago, he showed us a Widget that allowed him to put SVG data into it as easily as we set points in a polygon.
>
> That seems very much like what you're looking for, and what Mark Talluto's looking for, and many others.
>
> Was I dreaming?
>
> I'd thought there was an SVGIcon Widget for that purpose, no?

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Re: Vector images?

Richard Gaskin
In Trevor's demo it looked pretty straightforward.  Sure, the data
itself is no more readable to the human eye than rtfText or polygon
points, but a simple copy-n-paste from an SVG XML file into the
Inspector and bingo! SVG on screen.

Assuming that wasn't either a dream or some proprietary thing Trevor has
that no one else has seen, I would imagine if the Inspector (coded in LC
as it is) can do it, any of our scripts can do it too.

--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems
Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
____________________________________________________________________
[hidden email] http://www.FourthWorld.com


Scott Rossi wrote:

 > SVG is LiveCode 8 widgets only.  AFAIK, in 8 the current "built in"
 > vector graphic offering is characters from the FontAwesome font,
 > and while you and I might be comfortable copying points from SVG
 > files into LiveCode, I think you'd agree that's not exactly the best
 > user experience. :-)
 >
 >> On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:23 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >>
 >> When Trevor DeVore presented at our local LiveCode User Group
 >> meeting a couple months ago, he showed us a Widget that allowed
 >> him to put SVG data into it as easily as we set points in a polygon.
 >>
 >> That seems very much like what you're looking for, and what Mark
 >> Talluto's looking for, and many others.
 >>
 >> Was I dreaming?
 >>
 >> I'd thought there was an SVGIcon Widget for that purpose, no?


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Re: Vector images?

Todd Fabacher
In reply to this post by Richmond Mathewson-2
I think the purpose of widgets is to add the functionality to an
environment. Microsoft .NET does NOT have native SVG or does JAVA. They all
use libraries or widgets to add the functionality to the platform.

If SVG is important, lets create a widget and be done with it. I agree it
is SUPER important, but it is NOT a core functionality. LiveCode needs to
be expandable, so if there are a group of people who want this, we get
together, raise the money and LiveCode or Monti or Trevor or whoever will
create a fully functioning SVG plugin.

If the community pays for it, it should be open to all. If not or only pays
for part of it, then it will be for sale for $20. I think it is IMPORTANT
that we as a community begin to understand that functionality is added by
widgets and not to the code. If we need or want something, we pay, it gets
moved to the top of the list and it gets done.

I just paid $7000 to get 64Bit Mic version of LC. I will pay $2500 to get
SVG started because it is important to me and the community. If LiveCode or
someone else wants to make it happen you know where to find me!!!

Also, Mark or Monti I am up for $5000 to get FASTCGI started. I think the
huge hole in the LC platform is the cloud. And we can not create a good web
server without FASTCGI. Ralf has done an FANTASTIC job with revIgniter, and
it would put LC on the map if we could get a great server going.

I have been reading about Open Language and all this extra stuff on this
email chain. But the ONLY way LiveCode is going to thrive and survive is by
getting a strong widget system going. That my friends is what businesses
and programmers are looking for today. Without a full array of available
3rd party widgets, LC is dead to the "Young and Restless."  Yes, they
expect it and DEMAND it because today programers just assemble, they don't
code. They are not given the time or the budget to get it done.

--Todd Fabacher
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Re: Vector images?

Bob Sneidar-2
In reply to this post by RH
I'd like to point out that Apple almost sunk it's own boat some years back by getting so spread out in so many directions, with so many models and lines of computers, that they weren't making a lot of progress in any particular direction.

One of the main things (and first things) Steve Jobs did when he took over was to scrap a lot of the dead weight and focus on moving the company forward. The net effect is that he pulled Apple's one foot out of the grave.

I'm all for new stuff, but not at the expense of losing focus.

Bob S


> On Oct 29, 2015, at 13:10 , Roland Huettmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, I completely agree with the statement that for clients presentation
> layer must be state of art and give a convincing experience, and LC should
> give full support for building it easily.
>
> I also see the big majority of applications needing this.
>
> And vector inage support is a pressing must in my eyes.
>
> Roland
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: Vector images?

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by ScottR
On 29/10/15 22:35, Scott Rossi wrote:
> SVG is LiveCode 8 widgets only.  AFAIK, in 8 the current "built in" vector graphic offering is characters from the FontAwesome font, and while you and I might be comfortable copying points from SVG files into LiveCode, I think you'd agree that's not exactly the best user experience. :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media UX/UI Design
>
>
Copying points . . . cripes: where does one get at a vector image's
points outwith LiveCode to copy them.

And, on Linux at least, as copying stuff both to-and-from LiveCode is at
least a two-step procedure

[How I copy code from the scriptEditor into my email client and/or
Firefox: copy text, paste into a text editor,
copy from the text editor, paste into Thunderbird/Firefox]

this is unbelievably labour intensive and, frankly, primitive.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Just for fun" I downloaded this:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Sample-image.svg

opened it in Inkscape, and . . . wondered what to do then.

Gosh, I haven't had as much fun as when I tried to buy a carpet from an
Afghani in the souk in Jeddah with no Pashto, Farsi or Arabic.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quite honestly I feel that until one can import vector images just the
same as one imports
JPG and PNG images via the menu system things are not acceptable
vis-a-vis vector images.

It would also be nice, although that may be expecting too much, if the
"export snapshot"
could export snapshots from vector objects as vector images.

Richmond.

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Re: Vector images?

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
On 29/10/15 23:05, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> In Trevor's demo it looked pretty straightforward.  Sure, the data
> itself is no more readable to the human eye than rtfText or polygon
> points, but a simple copy-n-paste from an SVG XML file into the
> Inspector and bingo! SVG on screen.

Bingo! Ehum . . . how does a "raw prawn" like me obtain the polygon
points from an SVG.

And, bye-ther-bye, what, forbye, is the difference midst an SVG file and
an SVG XML file?

>
> Assuming that wasn't either a dream or some proprietary thing Trevor
> has that no one else has seen, I would imagine if the Inspector (coded
> in LC as it is) can do it, any of our scripts can do it too.
>

R.


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Re: Vector images?

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
cmd-shift->

import Vector

This is what Richmond is talking about..

it has to be that simple.

BR



Richard Gaskin wrote:
>
> Was I dreaming?
>
> I'd thought there was an SVGIcon Widget for that purpose, no?


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Re: Vector images?

Mark Talluto
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin

> On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:23 PM, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> That seems very much like what you're looking for, and what Mark Talluto's looking for, and many others.

LiveCode 8 looks very promising for our needs in regards to SVG support. Mark’w comments today show that LiveCode agrees that SVG is important. The thought of it all working in the context of images (optionally) is also very interesting. I think LiveCode is on the right track.

Best regards,

Mark Talluto
livecloud.io
canelasoftware.com




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