What is this - is anyone making money?

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What is this - is anyone making money?

Pyyhtiä Christer
Although playing around with LiveCode for a number of years and enjoying - often 'trial and error' - haven't really got anywhere close to see the fruits for the effort making an application.

As many of us I have paid for the licenses, put money out for free development expecting some wanted features, continued for Indie advancement payments (hope to live beyond the licenses expire), I have to ask my colleague developers, are you making any money with the apps you develop (with LC)?  Or is it just fun?  Are you ingenious enough to hit the sweet spot what is driving the downloads? This is nothing against LC - rather a question to answer to possible $ supporters if to continue pursuing the efforts & telling 'this will be the thing'.

Another question is where is the beef for the different apps.  Games, plays - but does anything serious drive apps in iOS world. What about Android, is there a different worlds of users?  Finally, is everything just games and plays, is there any interest for value applications, which is not 'just here and now'?  What's there for serious app development, is everything just what is the click for just now, just today?

Have fun,

Christer Pyyhtiä
MindCrea Ltd
Mobile: +358-400-410216
Skype:  christerp1
[hidden email]


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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Matthias Rebbe | M-R-D
I am pretty sure there are many who made and still make money with Livecode apps.

I for example have an app, unfortunately a niche product, which i am selling through Kagi for some time which gives me some revenue. I am selling round about 10 to 20 copies a month.

I´ve created 6 iOS and Android apps for customers. 5 of them are listed under the customer names.

I´ve created an inhouse iPad app for a customer which is used by sales representatives to sell products to undertakers.

And i´ve created several inhouse apps (pricelist tools, reporting tools, download portals and other db stuff) some in combination with livecode server for use in our own company.
Okay, with our inhouse stuff i did not earn money, but we spent a lot, because we did not have to hire some one to do this for us.

At the moment i cannot earn a living with my LiveCode stuff, but i am still happy with LiveCode, because i see at least some revenue.

Matthias



> Am 19.08.2015 um 21:46 schrieb Pyyhtiä Christer <[hidden email]>:
>
> Although playing around with LiveCode for a number of years and enjoying - often 'trial and error' - haven't really got anywhere close to see the fruits for the effort making an application.
>
> As many of us I have paid for the licenses, put money out for free development expecting some wanted features, continued for Indie advancement payments (hope to live beyond the licenses expire), I have to ask my colleague developers, are you making any money with the apps you develop (with LC)?  Or is it just fun?  Are you ingenious enough to hit the sweet spot what is driving the downloads? This is nothing against LC - rather a question to answer to possible $ supporters if to continue pursuing the efforts & telling 'this will be the thing'.
>
> Another question is where is the beef for the different apps.  Games, plays - but does anything serious drive apps in iOS world. What about Android, is there a different worlds of users?  Finally, is everything just games and plays, is there any interest for value applications, which is not 'just here and now'?  What's there for serious app development, is everything just what is the click for just now, just today?
>
> Have fun,
>
> Christer Pyyhtiä
> MindCrea Ltd
> Mobile: +358-400-410216
> Skype:  christerp1
> [hidden email]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Simon
In reply to this post by Pyyhtiä Christer
Oh Yes!
I've made a living for the past 8 or 9 years from apps I built with liveCode. No I have not become a multi millionaire but am doing fine.
I guess what I do a bit differently is I get a job within a company and they do all the marketing stuff. I just code and talk to IT people.
Recently I worked with a couple of neurologist to make an iOS and Android app for their patients. This will continue on for several chronic diseases, each needing a specific app. We meet once a week and the rest is all telecommuting. Super Fun.

So my approach is different in that I'm not selling apps really, but the tech talk guy who codes in LiveCode.

Simon
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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Pyyhtiä Christer
Pyyhtiä Christer wrote:

 > As many of us I have paid for the licenses, put money out for free
 > development expecting some wanted features, continued for Indie
 > advancement payments (hope to live beyond the licenses expire),
 > I have to ask my colleague developers, are you making any money with
 > the apps you develop (with LC)?  Or is it just fun?

Buying a saw, a hammer, some nails, and some wood won't provide you a home.

A home is more than raw materials and tools.  It requires experienced
skill.  And not just one, but a combination of many different skills,
from architecture to construction to decorating and more.

A business is the same. There's more to it than just writing a check.
Much more.

Every project I've worked on for many years has provided strong positive
ROI for the owner.  Some of these are profitable products, others
cost-saving internal tools.  All of them involve groups of people
experienced in their parts of it working together toward a set of goals
identified and prioritized according to the value they deliver to the
organization.

It's not easy, but neither is playing piano, or managing archaeology
surveys, or teaching high school English, or anything else people do
professionally.

To be good at anything is a function of time spent practicing.  Malcolm
Gladwell estimates that the time needed to truly master just about
anything is roughly 10,000 hours.  So at 5,000 hours one can expect to
at least be very good, and at 1,000 hours far better off than not having
spent the time studying the task at all.

If you want to succeed in business study it, practice it, and over time
any reasonably smart person can become at least pretty good at it.

One great thing about LiveCode is that it's so good at ad hoc solutions
that there are so many ways it can contribute to a startup, in addition
to being the foundation for the startup's product.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Todd Fabacher
In reply to this post by Pyyhtiä Christer
 > As many of us I have paid for the licenses, put money out for free
 > development expecting some wanted features, continued for Indie
 > advancement payments (hope to live beyond the licenses expire),
 > I have to ask my colleague developers, are you making any money with
 > the apps you develop (with LC)?  Or is it just fun?


This is the question that is on the lips of so many developers I meet in
the LiveCode community in the last year since I have started to use LC as a
development tool. The real critical problem is many expect LC to be a genie
in a bottle and grant you three profitable apps.

Mostly, it is lack of experience that has created this illusion. The lack
of profitability is more related to a void in understanding how to develop
profitable business apps vs. LiveCode. I have been working with dozens of
developers from the class to help them on their journey.  But that is a
small amount of the 500+ who are taking the class. Many do indeed purchase
LiveCode like they do language software and thing the will learn to speak
French simply by osmosis.

At DP have been like elfs, quietly toiling away for a year, but are about
to launch 5 very profitable Apps in addition to the 16 Apps [we still have
4 to go] that we helped LiveCode with for the "Create It With LiveCode"
class. Granted I have more resources than most, but here is what we have
done in a year:

*UBook24-7*: A management App + online scheduling website which allows
people to book appointments online, and the owner uses the App to manage
the business. The main focus is barber, hair salon, sports instructors and
personal trainers. Price $229 / year including a website and hosting.

*Express Event*: A management App + online eCommerce website for Events and
conferences. It provides a complete solution including event ticket sales,
speaker management , class registration, multi-locations for event "Tours"
and lots more. We also have an option for the event to have their own App.
Price $299 / year including a website and hosting. Plus another one time
fee of $299 if you want an event App.

*Build a Tour App*: A management App + online website + Custom App Tour App
designed by them for self guided Tours. We are in Full beta with cities,
universities, a wine area in NZ and a cruise line. A desktop app allows
them to manage and design their tour app [text, images, audio, video and
languages]. We take their data and match it agains a pre-build LC App
template, charge them $499 for the App and $29/ month for a website that
promotes the App and acts as a central server to update the app data and
advertising on an ongoing basis.

*MenuMania*: A management App + online website + Custom Menu App designed
by them with the desktop management app. For many hotels, restaurants,
airports  or other places where language and speed are an issue, we have
developed a simple "menu maker". So instead of giving them a menu, a tablet
is provided or is attached to the table. You see this in many airports now,
but will begin to move to all food services. You can order and pay on the
device and the food comes right out. Several New York restaurants are
interested more in using this as a wine list as it can make suggestions
based on the menu, and will provide a more information on the winery which
people are always interested in. We have just started connecting with
the Culinary Institute of America to try and make this not just about fast
food. $499 for the App and $29/ month for a web server. Also we are looking
into a kitchen management system to go with it, but that is 2016.

*PlayLand Armenia*: The team in Armenia what to do this, so I said OK. No
it is not profitable and in actuality I am loosing money on it, but it was
a great team builder and help teach some critical skills. It is an app
where Armenian kids 5-10 around the world can play online games together,
become friends and learn Armenian. This was the teams contribution for the
memory of the 100 year Genocide. So rather focus on the negative, they
provide a way for the Armenian kids around the world to still feel
connected.

*3 large Contact Apps*: We are doing 3 apps on a contact basis. These have
helped us learn new technology and provided the revenue to teach new people
LiveCode.

So my point is, I could do these in any language, but LiveCode allows me
several critical advantages. Multi-platform, ease of use so I can hire and
train people who have never even coded before and get them up to speed in
4-6 months, seamless connection between the app and LC web server using
revIgniter and a great interface with WordPress which we use as the website
for many of the web portion of the apps.

I hope this answers your question.

--Todd
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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Kaveh Bazargan
Wow, and here I was thinking you just do "lorem ipsum":

http://digitalpomegranate.com/about/

;-)

On 20 August 2015 at 16:40, Todd Fabacher <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  > As many of us I have paid for the licenses, put money out for free
>  > development expecting some wanted features, continued for Indie
>  > advancement payments (hope to live beyond the licenses expire),
>  > I have to ask my colleague developers, are you making any money with
>  > the apps you develop (with LC)?  Or is it just fun?
>
>
> This is the question that is on the lips of so many developers I meet in
> the LiveCode community in the last year since I have started to use LC as a
> development tool. The real critical problem is many expect LC to be a genie
> in a bottle and grant you three profitable apps.
>
> Mostly, it is lack of experience that has created this illusion. The lack
> of profitability is more related to a void in understanding how to develop
> profitable business apps vs. LiveCode. I have been working with dozens of
> developers from the class to help them on their journey.  But that is a
> small amount of the 500+ who are taking the class. Many do indeed purchase
> LiveCode like they do language software and thing the will learn to speak
> French simply by osmosis.
>
> At DP have been like elfs, quietly toiling away for a year, but are about
> to launch 5 very profitable Apps in addition to the 16 Apps [we still have
> 4 to go] that we helped LiveCode with for the "Create It With LiveCode"
> class. Granted I have more resources than most, but here is what we have
> done in a year:
>
> *UBook24-7*: A management App + online scheduling website which allows
> people to book appointments online, and the owner uses the App to manage
> the business. The main focus is barber, hair salon, sports instructors and
> personal trainers. Price $229 / year including a website and hosting.
>
> *Express Event*: A management App + online eCommerce website for Events and
> conferences. It provides a complete solution including event ticket sales,
> speaker management , class registration, multi-locations for event "Tours"
> and lots more. We also have an option for the event to have their own App.
> Price $299 / year including a website and hosting. Plus another one time
> fee of $299 if you want an event App.
>
> *Build a Tour App*: A management App + online website + Custom App Tour App
> designed by them for self guided Tours. We are in Full beta with cities,
> universities, a wine area in NZ and a cruise line. A desktop app allows
> them to manage and design their tour app [text, images, audio, video and
> languages]. We take their data and match it agains a pre-build LC App
> template, charge them $499 for the App and $29/ month for a website that
> promotes the App and acts as a central server to update the app data and
> advertising on an ongoing basis.
>
> *MenuMania*: A management App + online website + Custom Menu App designed
> by them with the desktop management app. For many hotels, restaurants,
> airports  or other places where language and speed are an issue, we have
> developed a simple "menu maker". So instead of giving them a menu, a tablet
> is provided or is attached to the table. You see this in many airports now,
> but will begin to move to all food services. You can order and pay on the
> device and the food comes right out. Several New York restaurants are
> interested more in using this as a wine list as it can make suggestions
> based on the menu, and will provide a more information on the winery which
> people are always interested in. We have just started connecting with
> the Culinary Institute of America to try and make this not just about fast
> food. $499 for the App and $29/ month for a web server. Also we are looking
> into a kitchen management system to go with it, but that is 2016.
>
> *PlayLand Armenia*: The team in Armenia what to do this, so I said OK. No
> it is not profitable and in actuality I am loosing money on it, but it was
> a great team builder and help teach some critical skills. It is an app
> where Armenian kids 5-10 around the world can play online games together,
> become friends and learn Armenian. This was the teams contribution for the
> memory of the 100 year Genocide. So rather focus on the negative, they
> provide a way for the Armenian kids around the world to still feel
> connected.
>
> *3 large Contact Apps*: We are doing 3 apps on a contact basis. These have
> helped us learn new technology and provided the revenue to teach new people
> LiveCode.
>
> So my point is, I could do these in any language, but LiveCode allows me
> several critical advantages. Multi-platform, ease of use so I can hire and
> train people who have never even coded before and get them up to speed in
> 4-6 months, seamless connection between the app and LC web server using
> revIgniter and a great interface with WordPress which we use as the website
> for many of the web portion of the apps.
>
> I hope this answers your question.
>
> --Todd
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>



--
Kaveh Bazargan
Director
River Valley Technologies
@kaveh1000
+44 7771 824 111
www.rivervalleytechnologies.com
www.bazargan.org
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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Randy Hengst
In reply to this post by Todd Fabacher
I am not a programmer in the vein of Todd, Richard, Simon or many others on this list… I’m a “scripter.”  

I like LiveCode because I can easily create the simple things I do and develop them quickly. My target audience is elementary schools and children (so, ages 5-12). I’m a prof in a small liberal arts school (in the US, Rock Island, Illinois) where I work with elementary education majors. Our majors use the apps in their field experiences with elementary students and make suggestions for apps that I create or the make suggestions to modify the existing apps I’ve already written.. It’s cool when they can make a suggestion and I can get a version out to them within a week or two for them try with “real” students. That way our majors are developing a true sense of what makes a “good” app and begin getting a sense of how apps are made.

I’ve been making “apps” since HyperCard and moved to HyperStudio for manny years because of its scripting and cross-platform capabilities. Now I only develop in LiveCode and have 33 apps on the iOS app store. All are “utilitarian” in nature… none will win a design award… much of the art is made within LiveCode. The coolest art I have is my logo (thanks to the talents of Scott Rossi).

Given the focus of my app development I don’t have to worry about making money… I do need some income to defray expenses since we are not receiving any form of grant money for this project. I’ve had over 1.5 million app downloads… only 3% are paid apps… schools, as you can image, like “free.” I have no doubt that if my apps were all paid (99¢) that I would have far fewer downloads… maybe a total of 100,000.

One thing I really like about the list (and the forums) is listening to the folks who talk so far over my head that I can get a sense of what is possible even when I don’t understand how to get there.

be well,
randy

Randy Hengst
www.classroomFocusedSoftware.com


> On Aug 20, 2015, at 6:10 AM, Todd Fabacher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> As many of us I have paid for the licenses, put money out for free
>> development expecting some wanted features, continued for Indie
>> advancement payments (hope to live beyond the licenses expire),
>> I have to ask my colleague developers, are you making any money with
>> the apps you develop (with LC)?  Or is it just fun?
>
>
> This is the question that is on the lips of so many developers I meet in
> the LiveCode community in the last year since I have started to use LC as a
> development tool. The real critical problem is many expect LC to be a genie
> in a bottle and grant you three profitable apps.
>
> Mostly, it is lack of experience that has created this illusion. The lack
> of profitability is more related to a void in understanding how to develop
> profitable business apps vs. LiveCode. I have been working with dozens of
> developers from the class to help them on their journey.  But that is a
> small amount of the 500+ who are taking the class. Many do indeed purchase
> LiveCode like they do language software and thing the will learn to speak
> French simply by osmosis.
>
> At DP have been like elfs, quietly toiling away for a year, but are about
> to launch 5 very profitable Apps in addition to the 16 Apps [we still have
> 4 to go] that we helped LiveCode with for the "Create It With LiveCode"
> class. Granted I have more resources than most, but here is what we have
> done in a year:
>
> *UBook24-7*: A management App + online scheduling website which allows
> people to book appointments online, and the owner uses the App to manage
> the business. The main focus is barber, hair salon, sports instructors and
> personal trainers. Price $229 / year including a website and hosting.
>
> *Express Event*: A management App + online eCommerce website for Events and
> conferences. It provides a complete solution including event ticket sales,
> speaker management , class registration, multi-locations for event "Tours"
> and lots more. We also have an option for the event to have their own App.
> Price $299 / year including a website and hosting. Plus another one time
> fee of $299 if you want an event App.
>
> *Build a Tour App*: A management App + online website + Custom App Tour App
> designed by them for self guided Tours. We are in Full beta with cities,
> universities, a wine area in NZ and a cruise line. A desktop app allows
> them to manage and design their tour app [text, images, audio, video and
> languages]. We take their data and match it agains a pre-build LC App
> template, charge them $499 for the App and $29/ month for a website that
> promotes the App and acts as a central server to update the app data and
> advertising on an ongoing basis.
>
> *MenuMania*: A management App + online website + Custom Menu App designed
> by them with the desktop management app. For many hotels, restaurants,
> airports  or other places where language and speed are an issue, we have
> developed a simple "menu maker". So instead of giving them a menu, a tablet
> is provided or is attached to the table. You see this in many airports now,
> but will begin to move to all food services. You can order and pay on the
> device and the food comes right out. Several New York restaurants are
> interested more in using this as a wine list as it can make suggestions
> based on the menu, and will provide a more information on the winery which
> people are always interested in. We have just started connecting with
> the Culinary Institute of America to try and make this not just about fast
> food. $499 for the App and $29/ month for a web server. Also we are looking
> into a kitchen management system to go with it, but that is 2016.
>
> *PlayLand Armenia*: The team in Armenia what to do this, so I said OK. No
> it is not profitable and in actuality I am loosing money on it, but it was
> a great team builder and help teach some critical skills. It is an app
> where Armenian kids 5-10 around the world can play online games together,
> become friends and learn Armenian. This was the teams contribution for the
> memory of the 100 year Genocide. So rather focus on the negative, they
> provide a way for the Armenian kids around the world to still feel
> connected.
>
> *3 large Contact Apps*: We are doing 3 apps on a contact basis. These have
> helped us learn new technology and provided the revenue to teach new people
> LiveCode.
>
> So my point is, I could do these in any language, but LiveCode allows me
> several critical advantages. Multi-platform, ease of use so I can hire and
> train people who have never even coded before and get them up to speed in
> 4-6 months, seamless connection between the app and LC web server using
> revIgniter and a great interface with WordPress which we use as the website
> for many of the web portion of the apps.
>
> I hope this answers your question.
>
> --Todd
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Todd Fabacher
On 20/08/15 14:10, Todd Fabacher wrote:
>   > As many of us I have paid for the licenses, put money out for free
>   > development expecting some wanted features, continued for Indie
>   > advancement payments (hope to live beyond the licenses expire),
>   > I have to ask my colleague developers, are you making any money with
>   > the apps you develop (with LC)?  Or is it just fun?
>
>
>
  A bad workman blames his tools.

LiveCode provides a fantastic toolbox: what you do with it is your problem.

LiveCode are not going to build cupboards, put up shelves, or cook your
dinner
anymore than you would expect a drill, a saw, a screwdriver and a
cooking pot.

Richmond.

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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Mark Talluto
In reply to this post by Pyyhtiä Christer

> On Aug 19, 2015, at 12:46 PM, Pyyhtiä Christer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Another question is where is the beef for the different apps.  Games, plays - but does anything serious drive apps in iOS world. What about Android, is there a different worlds of users? Finally, is everything just games and plays, is there any interest for value applications, which is not 'just here and now'?  What's there for serious app development, is everything just what is the click for just now, just today?

LiveCode used to have a list of apps on their website. I can not find it right now. Maybe they have been taken down while the site is getting another facelift. My take is that you can make money with any software development tool out there. You just need to know what needs to be made and how to get the word out. LiveCode brings the element of speed to the table. Coding in LiveCode is very fast and easy. Deploying to all the key platforms is also simple.

Business sense is something that does not come out of the box. It is something that you cultivate like a garden. You have to know when a project you want to work on is not going to generate income. Developers must do their homework before even writing a single line of code.

If you are new to development, or your business is not jumping like you expected it to, this is a good place to bring it up. If shyness is a factor, then talk with people you trust that have made it in the business. A little guidance goes a long way.

My company, Canela Software, has been using LiveCode since the beginning. We started with MetaCard before that. We have designed software for the education field which generated income around $40k year. We transitioned to vision testing software that generate millions of dollars a year. Our current project, electronic medical records, is expected to generate 10+ times even more in income. It pivots off our vision testing system. Hint: pivoting off a strong platform is a good business decision since you can utilize existing sales channels, customer contacts, and capitalize on your core knowledge of a given field. And, similar to how Amazon released its backend tech to the world, we plan to make ours available to the LiveCode community. This may not be the strongest business decision we have made, but if it helps others to achieve their goals, that will make me happy too.

I am friends with other developers in this community that have not spoken up about their success in using LiveCode. Many of them are making a very good living by making good business decisions and choosing LiveCode as their tool of choice. Hopefully this information is helpful to those considering using LiveCode.


Best regards,

Mark Talluto
canelasoftware.com <http://canelasoftware.com/>

CassiaDB: The easy to use, free local storage database made for LiveCode Developers: livecloud.io <http://www.livecloud.io/>



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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Kay C Lan
Richard wrote:

> To be good at anything is a function of time spent practicing.  Malcolm
> Gladwell estimates that the time needed to truly master just about anything
> is roughly 10,000 hours.  So at 5,000 hours one can expect to at least be
> very good, and at 1,000 hours far better off than not having spent the time
> studying the task at all.
>

Todd wrote:

> The real critical problem is many expect LC to be a genie in a bottle and
> grant you three profitable apps.
>
> Mostly, it is lack of experience that has created this illusion.
>
> Many do indeed purchase LiveCode like they do language software and thing
> the will learn to speak French simply by osmosis.
>

So therein lies the real question. Basically everyone here, and certainly
Apple/MetaCard/RunRev and now LC all claim that xTalk and their IDE of the
day helped to make you productive faster. So does Gladwell's estimate of
10000hrs apply or is there something magic within LC that gets you to your
goal faster? Personally I think there is a bit of magic.

Firstly, let's take the 10000hrs. If that is correct it suggests that
whether I choose Java or LC it's going to take the same time for me to
master either. I don't buy that. If it were true, then it doesn't bode well
for LC, because what it's saying is, pick your language wisely because
either way it's going to take the same effort to master so it will be other
factors, like how many open source projects are out there that use the
language, what is the size of the community that use it, how many major
companies already use software written in the language, how well respected
is the language in the community at large, etc, etc which should determine
you choice of language.

IMO, some people can learn French through osmosis, but I'm certainly not
one of them. On the other side of the coin, for myself and I know for
others, there is something about the xtalk language that just clicked with
me. I've tried C, C++, Objective C, Java, Javascript, Applescript some
Basic and probably one or two others that failed to take hold. To be
brutally honest, the language I'd like to learn the most is Java, there are
a bunch of OSS projects out there that are written in Java that I would
just love to participate in, but the language doesn't work for me like LC
does. Is it because I've been spoilt with HC/LC, it's so easy to create a
quick and dirty app yet in other languages you just seem to get dirty and
stay that way for ages. Are we back at Gladwell's 10000 hrs? Is there a
difference at 100 hrs and 1000 hrs with Java/C/Pick a language vs LC that
gives you a false impression but at the end of the day you still need 10000
hrs. Again, I don't think so.

The way I see it Gladwell shouldn't have used hours, it should have been a
unit applicable to the profession, and the thought that 10000 applies to
everyone is just ridiculous - there has to be a bit of magic, a gift, an
inherent talent as well. You can't turn a 300lb professional footballer
into a ballet dancer and you can't turn someone with spacial awareness
problems into a trapeze artist.

Give a builder an electric hammer, and electric saw and an electric screw
driver will he become a master builder faster than the guy with the manual
tools. Yes, because it isn't 10000 hrs it's 10000 nails, or it's 10 houses.
Becoming a master builder isn't about how well you draw a saw blade across
a piece of lumber, it's is the cut perpendicular; it isn't about how well
you swing a hammer, it's is the nail driven straight; it isn't about how
well you twist a screw driver, it's is the screw driven home with the right
amount of torque. If modern tools give you a perpendicular cut, nails
driven straight, and screws torqued to perfection then why waste time?

For programming, if the syntax for C or Pascal or Assembly language is much
or a muchness to you, then you are gifted, maybe LC doesn't offer you much
at all; but if LC clicked with your brain then a genie has just handed you
an electric hammer, an electric saw and an electric screw driver. Next,
it's 10000 lines of productive code, not hours that will make the
difference. And I think everyone here knows that overall LC gets things
done in less lines of code than other languages. Also, for good or bad, we
tend to spend less time writing lines and lines of comments as the code in
many instances is self explanatory.

So the crux comes down to this. IMO your ability to make money with LC has
nothing to do with the language and everything to do with your business
acumen, which Richard and Todd have already pointed out will take a lot of
skill, effort and time. In this regard Gladwell is probably correct, it
wont matter what business it is, or what tools you are using, it's going to
take YOU the same 10000 whatevers to master the business.

Once you've mastered those business skills, then LC will let you take
advantage of them faster.
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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Todd Fabacher
In reply to this post by Pyyhtiä Christer
>So the crux comes down to this. IMO your ability to make money with LC has
>nothing to do with the language and everything to do with your business
>acumen, which Richard and Todd have already pointed out will take a lot of
>skill, effort and time. In this regard Gladwell is probably correct, it
>wont matter what business it is, or what tools you are using, it's going to
>take YOU the same 10000 whatevers to master the business.

Great point Kay. So I searched google with LiveCode + startups, + money,
+profit, +success, +App business, +business, + Venture Capital ...Mostly I
got things like this:
http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.855727.7

What do you think about starting a community driven initiative named
"Making Money with LiveCode", it will complement the "Create It with
LiveCode" class? But it will be community driven and mentor people who are
just starting out. There are benefits because if you do contract work there
will be more takers, more possibilities of customers for the new widgets
and if you are an investor like me who is always looking for possibilities
- this is perfect.

The point is to make the LiveCode pie bigger and more profitable for all. I
am a HUGE fan of open source, but I am also a fan of HUGE profits. There
can be both.

--Todd
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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Colin Holgate-3
Small Google tip: although -something still works, +something doesn’t. Now you put the word or phrase in quotes.


> On Aug 23, 2015, at 9:46 AM, Todd Fabacher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Great point Kay. So I searched google with LiveCode + startups, + money,
> +profit, +success, +App business, +business, + Venture Capital ...Mostly I
> got things like this:
> http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.855727.7 <http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.855727.7>
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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

pmbrig
In reply to this post by Kay C Lan
On Aug 22, 2015, at 9:32 PM, Kay C Lan wrote:

> Richard wrote:
>
>> To be good at anything is a function of time spent practicing.  Malcolm
>> Gladwell estimates that the time needed to truly master just about anything
>> is roughly 10,000 hours.  So at 5,000 hours one can expect to at least be
>> very good, and at 1,000 hours far better off than not having spent the time
>> studying the task at all.
>>
>
> Todd wrote:
>
>> The real critical problem is many expect LC to be a genie in a bottle and
>> grant you three profitable apps.
>>
>> Mostly, it is lack of experience that has created this illusion.
>>
>> Many do indeed purchase LiveCode like they do language software and thing
>> the will learn to speak French simply by osmosis.
>>
>
> So therein lies the real question. Basically everyone here, and certainly
> Apple/MetaCard/RunRev and now LC all claim that xTalk and their IDE of the
> day helped to make you productive faster. So does Gladwell's estimate of
> 10000hrs apply or is there something magic within LC that gets you to your
> goal faster? Personally I think there is a bit of magic.
>
> Firstly, let's take the 10000hrs. If that is correct it suggests that
> whether I choose Java or LC it's going to take the same time for me to
> master either. I don't buy that. If it were true, then it doesn't bode well
> for LC, because what it's saying is, pick your language wisely because
> either way it's going to take the same effort to master so it will be other
> factors, like how many open source projects are out there that use the
> language, what is the size of the community that use it, how many major
> companies already use software written in the language, how well respected
> is the language in the community at large, etc, etc which should determine
> you choice of language.
>
> IMO, some people can learn French through osmosis, but I'm certainly not
> one of them. On the other side of the coin, for myself and I know for
> others, there is something about the xtalk language that just clicked with
> me. I've tried C, C++, Objective C, Java, Javascript, Applescript some
> Basic and probably one or two others that failed to take hold. To be
> brutally honest, the language I'd like to learn the most is Java, there are
> a bunch of OSS projects out there that are written in Java that I would
> just love to participate in, but the language doesn't work for me like LC
> does. Is it because I've been spoilt with HC/LC, it's so easy to create a
> quick and dirty app yet in other languages you just seem to get dirty and
> stay that way for ages. Are we back at Gladwell's 10000 hrs? Is there a
> difference at 100 hrs and 1000 hrs with Java/C/Pick a language vs LC that
> gives you a false impression but at the end of the day you still need 10000
> hrs. Again, I don't think so.
>
> The way I see it Gladwell shouldn't have used hours, it should have been a
> unit applicable to the profession, and the thought that 10000 applies to
> everyone is just ridiculous - there has to be a bit of magic, a gift, an
> inherent talent as well. You can't turn a 300lb professional footballer
> into a ballet dancer and you can't turn someone with spacial awareness
> problems into a trapeze artist.
>
> Give a builder an electric hammer, and electric saw and an electric screw
> driver will he become a master builder faster than the guy with the manual
> tools. Yes, because it isn't 10000 hrs it's 10000 nails, or it's 10 houses.
> Becoming a master builder isn't about how well you draw a saw blade across
> a piece of lumber, it's is the cut perpendicular; it isn't about how well
> you swing a hammer, it's is the nail driven straight; it isn't about how
> well you twist a screw driver, it's is the screw driven home with the right
> amount of torque. If modern tools give you a perpendicular cut, nails
> driven straight, and screws torqued to perfection then why waste time?
>
> For programming, if the syntax for C or Pascal or Assembly language is much
> or a muchness to you, then you are gifted, maybe LC doesn't offer you much
> at all; but if LC clicked with your brain then a genie has just handed you
> an electric hammer, an electric saw and an electric screw driver. Next,
> it's 10000 lines of productive code, not hours that will make the
> difference. And I think everyone here knows that overall LC gets things
> done in less lines of code than other languages. Also, for good or bad, we
> tend to spend less time writing lines and lines of comments as the code in
> many instances is self explanatory.
>
> So the crux comes down to this. IMO your ability to make money with LC has
> nothing to do with the language and everything to do with your business
> acumen, which Richard and Todd have already pointed out will take a lot of
> skill, effort and time. In this regard Gladwell is probably correct, it
> wont matter what business it is, or what tools you are using, it's going to
> take YOU the same 10000 whatevers to master the business.
>
> Once you've mastered those business skills, then LC will let you take
> advantage of them faster.

I'll put on my neuropsychology hat for a moment [OT]….

The 10000 hour rule is a heuristic shortcut that Gladwell arrived at by empirical observation. We now know enough about the way the brain works to begin to guess some of the underlying mechanisms. We used to think that the brain had 110 billion neurons at age 21 and the only question was how slowly could you lose them. We now know that the brain is making new neurons all the time, albeit at a slow rate. In addition, the brain is constantly changing itself in response to how it's being used: it strengthens the myelinization of tracts that are used constantly (which speeds up neuronal transmission along those tracts), and areas of gray matter that are used regularly expand and take over a bit of neighboring areas that are used less. The frontal motor area governing voluntary movement of the hands and arms of a concert pianist is up to twice as large as that of other people. So the brain is a hugely active, plastic organ, perhaps the most dynamic organ in the body, even when it comes to structural changes.

It looks as if the timeline for fundamental re-tooling of the brain is something like Gladwell's 10000 hours (which comes out to 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, for 5 years). However. this is for a full structural adaptation to completely new skills. The advantage of LC over other languages is that this amount of retooling is not necessary, since LC builds on skills the brain has already adapted to. It's English-like in vocabulary and syntax, most of the basic objects are familiar to anyone who has used a computer (buttons, fields, etc.), and the basic idea of messages and the message path taps into concepts that are familiar too, once you wrap your head around them. So the learning curve for LC is not nearly as steep, since the amount of brain restructuring is not nearly as much as with those languages that require "a whole new way of thinking." A similar phenomenon happens with learning languages (in the non-computer sense) -- if you're an English speaker, it's easier to learn a romance language in which many of the word roots are shared and the syntax taps into familiar patterns, compared to, say, Thai, where you have to learn a new alphabet, a new syntax, some new phonemes, the whole notion of pitch and tone as modifying meaning rather than emotional expression, never mind new cultural contexts that change how you say things.

So I think you're both right. The reason someone can begin to master LC in a reasonably short time is that the brain is already halfway there.

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
[hidden email]
http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig



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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Mark Talluto
In reply to this post by Todd Fabacher

> On Aug 23, 2015, at 6:46 AM, Todd Fabacher <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Great point Kay. So I searched google with LiveCode + startups, + money,
> +profit, +success, +App business, +business, + Venture Capital ...Mostly I
> got things like this:
> http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.855727.7 <http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.855727.7>

I like the last comment the most on that page:  http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.855727.7 <http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?biz.5.855727.7>
Looks like they used the Showcase LiveCode once had on their site. The poster remembers using our software at a hospital. Cool.
I think LiveCode should bring the showcase back. It seems people new to LiveCode like to see what has been made with this tool after all. Who would have guessed?

Best regards,

Mark Talluto
canelasoftware.com <http://canelasoftware.com/>

CassiaDB: The easy to use, free local storage database made for LiveCode Developers: livecloud.io <http://www.livecloud.io/>



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Re: What is this - is anyone making money?

Bob Sneidar-2
In reply to this post by Matthias Rebbe | M-R-D
I have not commercially distributed anything I have written. I have however written apps for the work I do for my company. They recently decided to adopt my Forms Generator in their workflow, which makes me somewhat of a needed commodity for them. I'm not sure how to put a price on that.

I have purchased Livecode over the years, ever since Revolution 2.0, because it is in my interests for RunRev to continue to support this product, else I am completely out of the software development business. I simply do not have the time or patience to use other products.

Bob S


On Aug 19, 2015, at 13:45 , Matthias Rebbe | M-R-D <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

I am pretty sure there are many who made and still make money with Livecode apps.

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