Where does survive the inventive user ?

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Where does survive the inventive user ?

Francis Nugent Dixon
Alejandro asks some potent questions .....

Question 1 - Is programming so easy ..... ?

I think we should ask the question "Is programming a niche occupation ?

During my early career, practically everybody I knew was a programmer
(birds of a feather flock together ?)

Now I am out of the industry (retired), outside of the LiveCode forum,
I don't know anybody who programs (although most of my acquaintances
have computers and Google all day, they don't WRITE programs.)
Programming is a mentality, and there aren't many of us who have
this mentality (even to make money from it). Although LiveCode is
a great incentive for non-programmers to "have a go" , programming
is limiited to a strange mind-form which even I cannot define !
The question should be - "What is the VISIBILTY of LiveCode to the man
in the street who has never even thought about programming ?"
And the answer is "NONE". The chances of anybody "moving in" to
programming are about the same as being struck by lightning.

Question 2  Did anyone know someone ..... ?

I would think that buying a mobile platform (iPhone, iPad), and
learning to program are two ideas so far apart, as to be unlikely.
I do not know anyone who has started programming because of this
"mobile technology" and the platforms thereon. In a recent thread
on the forum I voiced my "No Way Baby" intent to NOT go to mobile
computing, although I wrote my first program more than 50 years
ago, and I still program EVERY day. The cost is far too high, and
the returns are doubtful ! I am a rare bird who now programs for fun.

Question 3  Will mobile computing displace desktop computing .... ?

This reminds me of the 1980's question "Will Desktop computing ever
displace Mainframe Computing ?" A lot of people said no in them days.

Industry has been talking about "cloud computing" for years, and
IS slowly moving towards it. But, although I may accept having my
data in a cloud, I will always want my apps to be in my hand, so
I can have control over them. Renting application use out of a
cloud would be the same has handing over your wallet to a stranger.
You can see which  direction Apple is going. They want to charge
you for the use of YOUR OWN computer, and then for storing your
data in their cloud, and then for using their applications from
their cloud. That could cost you an arm and a leg. All my
communication in the hands of a stranger ? It's bad enough already!
God help us all in the future !

The problem is - it's not hype - it's tomorrows computing, and
I don't like the way the wind is blowing .....

The days when you rented an application, and you got the computer
for free may return. When computers become so dirt cheap that there
is no big profit to make, those guys "up there" have to think of a
new way to get your money.  We will soon be paying more for
communication facilities than we are spending on food
(si ce n'est deja fait !, as they say here)!

"Nothing should ever be done for the first time !"

-Francis

PS. How about the question "When will we be grafting micro-chips
into the brain to allow us instant and global communication, and
complex problem solving and decision making ?


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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

dunbarxx
In the old days, Hypercard was. like a viral pandemic, infected the world because it was bundled with every Macintosh. It was offered like a promotion, a possibly valuable coupon one gets in the mail, which you will at least read before throwing out, And it became a nerd fad, with many hundreds of thousands of people trying it out. Certainly only a small fraction became enamored; many of those are reading this post.


Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill battle to engage people who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it. Worse, these days, the mindset is that everything comes in small ready-to-go packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just don't think about building stuff, especially from raw materials. I used to, though.


Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that expectation, a far cry from reading a bank of eight lights telling you what byte was currently passing by.


LC should be taught in the ninth grade in every school in the world.


Craig Newman









-----Original Message-----
From: Francis Nugent Dixon <[hidden email]>
To: use-livecode <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 2:42 am
Subject: Where does survive the inventive user ?


Alejandro asks some potent questions .....

Question 1 - Is programming so easy ..... ?

I think we should ask the question "Is programming a niche occupation ?

During my early career, practically everybody I knew was a programmer
(birds of a feather flock together ?)

Now I am out of the industry (retired), outside of the LiveCode forum,
I don't know anybody who programs (although most of my acquaintances
have computers and Google all day, they don't WRITE programs.)
Programming is a mentality, and there aren't many of us who have
this mentality (even to make money from it). Although LiveCode is
a great incentive for non-programmers to "have a go" , programming
is limiited to a strange mind-form which even I cannot define !
The question should be - "What is the VISIBILTY of LiveCode to the man
in the street who has never even thought about programming ?"
And the answer is "NONE". The chances of anybody "moving in" to
programming are about the same as being struck by lightning.

Question 2  Did anyone know someone ..... ?

I would think that buying a mobile platform (iPhone, iPad), and
learning to program are two ideas so far apart, as to be unlikely.
I do not know anyone who has started programming because of this
"mobile technology" and the platforms thereon. In a recent thread
on the forum I voiced my "No Way Baby" intent to NOT go to mobile
computing, although I wrote my first program more than 50 years
ago, and I still program EVERY day. The cost is far too high, and
the returns are doubtful ! I am a rare bird who now programs for fun.

Question 3  Will mobile computing displace desktop computing .... ?

This reminds me of the 1980's question "Will Desktop computing ever
displace Mainframe Computing ?" A lot of people said no in them days.

Industry has been talking about "cloud computing" for years, and
IS slowly moving towards it. But, although I may accept having my
data in a cloud, I will always want my apps to be in my hand, so
I can have control over them. Renting application use out of a
cloud would be the same has handing over your wallet to a stranger.
You can see which  direction Apple is going. They want to charge
you for the use of YOUR OWN computer, and then for storing your
data in their cloud, and then for using their applications from
their cloud. That could cost you an arm and a leg. All my
communication in the hands of a stranger ? It's bad enough already!
God help us all in the future !

The problem is - it's not hype - it's tomorrows computing, and
I don't like the way the wind is blowing .....

The days when you rented an application, and you got the computer
for free may return. When computers become so dirt cheap that there
is no big profit to make, those guys "up there" have to think of a
new way to get your money.  We will soon be paying more for
communication facilities than we are spending on food
(si ce n'est deja fait !, as they say here)!

"Nothing should ever be done for the first time !"

-Francis

PS. How about the question "When will we be grafting micro-chips
into the brain to allow us instant and global communication, and
complex problem solving and decision making ?


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RE: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Lynn Fredricks-2
> Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill
> battle to engage people who might fall in love with LC if
> they only were simply exposed to it. Worse, these days, the
> mindset is that everything comes in small ready-to-go
> packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just
> don't think about building stuff, especially from raw
> materials. I used to, though.
>
>
> Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that
> expectation, a far cry from reading a bank of eight lights
> telling you what byte was currently passing by.

I think that began long before the iDevices.

There are still creative kids out there, just sadly, far fewer of them. I
also see an equal dwindling of interest in the adults that engage them (Im
not implying anything about you, just look around at the next
parent-involved event at your children's school to see what I am talking
about).

Products are easier to sell if there is instant gradification. In software
for example, you should design your product so that it rewards your user no
less than every five minutes when its in its demo mode. This reward can be
subtle or not, but it should deliver a sense of satisfaction. By no means is
this sort of thing relegated to software.

It is a lot of hard work to light the fires of competitiveness and
creativity in kids in this consumerist society. I know many intelligent,
well educated parents who for whatever reason end up with a bunch of high
school drop out Lotus Eaters living in their basement. But I also know a
much, much smaller number of families that raise competitive, creative and
intellectually engaged kids too. They exist - just in much smaller numbers.

It is a lot easier to sell to the Lotus Eaters though.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server


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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

slylabs13
In reply to this post by dunbarxx
Personally I spend a whole lot of time futzing with little things in Livecode, where I ought to be focused on creating the user interface or writing the code. I will give you an example:

I am creating an interface with buttons that have graphic icons. In order to use the icons I have to first import the image into Livecode, note the ID, and then set the icon of the button to that property. Ok so far so good. But I ALSO want the button to look different when the user clicks. Okay, open image in an editor, modify it, save it as something else, import, wash, rinse repeat. Now I want the button to look different when disabled. Ok, blah blah yadda yadda wash rinse repeat. There are six of these I could potentially use. No complaints so far. I get it.

Now I see that my 12 buttons are all too big! Hmmm... says I to myself, sizing the button may scale the icon too! Alas, no way. Maybe sizing the icon will work. But damn I hid the images! Okay show hidden objects, (there are 36 and they are cluttering the page) scale image, HEY the button icon scales too. Great! (wash rinse repeat 36 times).

Save stack quit LC go have lunch come back open project DAMN! All the icons on my interface have reverted to their original size!!! Spend another hour at the laundry washing rinsing and repeating.

Yes I know there are "ways" to do things which can minimize this impact, but the casual user/programmer is not going to know that. There are lots of examples I can give which puts unsuspecting newbies in this quandary. The reason we who remain "put up with it" is because we all know that in the long run, no matter how tedious it can get, LC is still almost infinitely easier to use to develop, debug and distribute cross platform with than C++ or Java. I learned Pascual up to the point of working with a GUI, and staring up at what appeared to me to be an insurmountable cliff (for a hobbyist developer) with the assurance that the next OS that came out would require scaling at least a part of that mountain over again, I said to myself, "No thank you." Hypercard (and now Livecode) have restored my faith that I CAN produce a useful app in a reasonable time and still have a life.

That being said,  when you subject a "casual user" to the nuances of Livecode, the frustrations can be enough to put them off, maybe forever. My first attempt to make a database kind of app in Revolution involved using the database connection stuff built into the old fields. After days of frustrating inability to get the daggum thing to work right, I posted on this list and got the response, "Yeah, that has never worked very well. You should probably script it."

My suggestion to my first example would be having the option to set the icon of a button to a file on the hard drive, and then be able to scale the icon in the button itself, and have that scaling stick. My suggestion to the second example would be to have a real database connection interface in each stack where, once the connection settings to the database were entered and I was connected, I could refer to the data as objects with properties like any other object in Livecode.

Put cellData(theRow, theColumn, theTable, theDBConnection) into field "fldFirstname"
Put TableData(theColumnList, theRowcount, theStartingRow) into field "fldTableField"

Wouldn't THAT be lovely? (Yes Trevor's sqlYoga goes a long way towards this but not quite all the way, great as it is.)

I guess I am asking for most of the hard work to be already done for me eh? But isn't that the nature of a Rapid Application Development environment? The question being posed in this thread, seems to me to be, how much of most of the work should RunRev do in order to woo the casual developer? Or have they gone far enough, indeed quite a long way already, and already have the market base they were shooting for, i.e.. us? In other words, it's not a question of principle or implementation, but of degree.

Bob


On Jul 27, 2011, at 5:35 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> In the old days, Hypercard was. like a viral pandemic, infected the world because it was bundled with every Macintosh. It was offered like a promotion, a possibly valuable coupon one gets in the mail, which you will at least read before throwing out, And it became a nerd fad, with many hundreds of thousands of people trying it out. Certainly only a small fraction became enamored; many of those are reading this post.
>
>
> Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill battle to engage people who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it. Worse, these days, the mindset is that everything comes in small ready-to-go packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just don't think about building stuff, especially from raw materials. I used to, though.
>
>
> Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that expectation, a far cry from reading a bank of eight lights telling you what byte was currently passing by.
>
>
> LC should be taught in the ninth grade in every school in the world.
>
>
> Craig Newman


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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Francis Nugent Dixon
In reply to this post by Francis Nugent Dixon
Hi,

Craig said :

> who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply

> exposed to it

Amen to that !

This was my point - Who IS exposed to LiveCode ?

Maybe we can get some input from the LiveCode Commercial
Department. How do you go about tickling a non-LiveCode-User ?

Certainly not on an upturned dustbin in Trafalgar Square ....

-Francis

"Nothing should ever be done for the first time !"

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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

slylabs13
It's hard to get people who know non-scripted languages to even look at Livecode, because they think that something simpler than what they already know has to suffer from an equal lack of speed, usability, features, security etc. Even still, if you can convince them that they can produce professional quality apps in a fraction of the time, they remember how long it took to learn their present flavor of whatever, and wrongly project the same time and difficulty to learning "another language".

I would say the best way is to actually produce polished apps and then showcase them, say in an online magazine that has that target audience. Talk about how much time it took to develop the app. Put example scripts in the article. Give links to some downloadable iPhone/iPad apps as examples of mobile apps. They need to get their hands on polished apps that do something well, and then be told "This took me 2 weeks to produce". Otherwise it's just another article in another publication among thousands every day.

And I wouldn't mention Hypercard or the other supersets of that much. That alone is enough to give the wrong impression that Livecode is not very robust. Oh yes, and perhaps have development set a couple weeks aside to deal with some of the quirkier Livecode issues that have been around for a while. No one wants to burn away their 30 day trial futzing with IDE eccentricities.

Bob


On Jul 27, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Francis Nugent Dixon wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Craig said :
>
>> who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply
>
>> exposed to it
>
> Amen to that !
>
> This was my point - Who IS exposed to LiveCode ?
>
> Maybe we can get some input from the LiveCode Commercial
> Department. How do you go about tickling a non-LiveCode-User ?
>
> Certainly not on an upturned dustbin in Trafalgar Square ....
>
> -Francis
>
> "Nothing should ever be done for the first time !"
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Timothy Miller-2
In reply to this post by dunbarxx
I've never been a computer professional. Not even close. I taught myself to write Basic programs for my Atari 64, mostly out of curiosity. Around 1984 I taught myself HyperCard. I wrote a variety of applications for home and business use. A pretty good phonics tutorial for my kids, among others. And I gradually cobbled together a complex set of HyperCard stacks, which I use every day to run my business. They're crude, kludgy and ugly, but they work. Many thousands of lines of script, no idea how many thousands. When I need a new feature, I write it. Often, it's working reliably in less than an hour. It's been years since I saw an error message. Sometimes I "discover" clever and useful features I wrote and forgot about.

When HyperCard became obsolete, I moved over to Runtime Revolution, which was rather an ordeal, because RR was far more complex. It's comfortable now. And now it's LiveCode, but I've barely noticed the change. LiveCode does many things I don't understand, but that's not a problem.

I still write stacks for my own use. I recently written a stack to help me study and identify photos and songs of birds. Also, I'm taking notes for a book and I've written a stack to help me organize the notes. I will eventually use the same stack to help me develop the book -- probably some kind of a one-paragraph-per-card arrangement with many summarizing, indexing, re-sequencing, search and notation features. I tweak old features and invent new ones as I go along.

None of this seems very difficult. It's a gradual transition from HyperCard. I'm not really a nerd -- computers don't fascinate me all that much. I write a stack when the time invested justifies the functionality of the final product.

It's gradually dawning on me that "programmers" like me have become rather rare. Fewer and fewer non-professionals on this list, as far as I can tell. I don't understand why, seems like a shame.

Many people have use for the kind of functionality an amateur and dabbler can get out of LiveCode, and it isn't that hard to do.

Admittedly, HyperCard was easier, simply because it was less complex. I've wondered if LiveCode might be more approachable if it had some kind of "dumb mode," sort of like the old userLevel system in HyperCard. Probably won't happen though.

FWIW...

Tim



On Jul 27, 2011, at 5:35 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> In the old days, Hypercard was. like a viral pandemic, infected the world because it was bundled with every Macintosh. It was offered like a promotion, a possibly valuable coupon one gets in the mail, which you will at least read before throwing out, And it became a nerd fad, with many hundreds of thousands of people trying it out. Certainly only a small fraction became enamored; many of those are reading this post.
>
>
> Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill battle to engage people who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it. Worse, these days, the mindset is that everything comes in small ready-to-go packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just don't think about building stuff, especially from raw materials. I used to, though.
>
>
> Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that expectation, a far cry from reading a bank of eight lights telling you what byte was currently passing by.
>
>
> LC should be taught in the ninth grade in every school in the world.
>
>
> Craig Newman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francis Nugent Dixon <[hidden email]>
> To: use-livecode <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 2:42 am
> Subject: Where does survive the inventive user ?
>
>
> Alejandro asks some potent questions .....
>
> Question 1 - Is programming so easy ..... ?
>
> I think we should ask the question "Is programming a niche occupation ?
>
> During my early career, practically everybody I knew was a programmer
> (birds of a feather flock together ?)
>
> Now I am out of the industry (retired), outside of the LiveCode forum,
> I don't know anybody who programs (although most of my acquaintances
> have computers and Google all day, they don't WRITE programs.)
> Programming is a mentality, and there aren't many of us who have
> this mentality (even to make money from it). Although LiveCode is
> a great incentive for non-programmers to "have a go" , programming
> is limiited to a strange mind-form which even I cannot define !
> The question should be - "What is the VISIBILTY of LiveCode to the man
> in the street who has never even thought about programming ?"
> And the answer is "NONE". The chances of anybody "moving in" to
> programming are about the same as being struck by lightning.
>
> Question 2  Did anyone know someone ..... ?
>
> I would think that buying a mobile platform (iPhone, iPad), and
> learning to program are two ideas so far apart, as to be unlikely.
> I do not know anyone who has started programming because of this
> "mobile technology" and the platforms thereon. In a recent thread
> on the forum I voiced my "No Way Baby" intent to NOT go to mobile
> computing, although I wrote my first program more than 50 years
> ago, and I still program EVERY day. The cost is far too high, and
> the returns are doubtful ! I am a rare bird who now programs for fun.
>
> Question 3  Will mobile computing displace desktop computing .... ?
>
> This reminds me of the 1980's question "Will Desktop computing ever
> displace Mainframe Computing ?" A lot of people said no in them days.
>
> Industry has been talking about "cloud computing" for years, and
> IS slowly moving towards it. But, although I may accept having my
> data in a cloud, I will always want my apps to be in my hand, so
> I can have control over them. Renting application use out of a
> cloud would be the same has handing over your wallet to a stranger.
> You can see which  direction Apple is going. They want to charge
> you for the use of YOUR OWN computer, and then for storing your
> data in their cloud, and then for using their applications from
> their cloud. That could cost you an arm and a leg. All my
> communication in the hands of a stranger ? It's bad enough already!
> God help us all in the future !
>
> The problem is - it's not hype - it's tomorrows computing, and
> I don't like the way the wind is blowing .....
>
> The days when you rented an application, and you got the computer
> for free may return. When computers become so dirt cheap that there
> is no big profit to make, those guys "up there" have to think of a
> new way to get your money.  We will soon be paying more for
> communication facilities than we are spending on food
> (si ce n'est deja fait !, as they say here)!
>
> "Nothing should ever be done for the first time !"
>
> -Francis
>
> PS. How about the question "When will we be grafting micro-chips
> into the brain to allow us instant and global communication, and
> complex problem solving and decision making ?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

pmbrig
Just to let you know that you're not alone -- I'm a similar LC user, started with HC (actually bought and read through Danny Goodman's book even before I bought my first Mac), developed a set of stacks to manage my clinical notes, incorporated more and more features, moved it over to LC a number of years ago, at which point with all of LC's capability the feature set grew even larger, now a full-fledged practice management tool, with 45 substacks, over 32,000 lines of script, couldn't manage without it. I'm not a programmer, just picked it up on the side. I have no idea how you market to people like me, but I suspect there are lots of us scattered around.

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
[hidden email]
http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig


On Jul 27, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Timothy Miller wrote:

> I've never been a computer professional. Not even close. I taught myself to write Basic programs for my Atari 64, mostly out of curiosity. Around 1984 I taught myself HyperCard. I wrote a variety of applications for home and business use. A pretty good phonics tutorial for my kids, among others. And I gradually cobbled together a complex set of HyperCard stacks, which I use every day to run my business. They're crude, kludgy and ugly, but they work. Many thousands of lines of script, no idea how many thousands. When I need a new feature, I write it. Often, it's working reliably in less than an hour. It's been years since I saw an error message. Sometimes I "discover" clever and useful features I wrote and forgot about.
>
> When HyperCard became obsolete, I moved over to Runtime Revolution, which was rather an ordeal, because RR was far more complex. It's comfortable now. And now it's LiveCode, but I've barely noticed the change. LiveCode does many things I don't understand, but that's not a problem.
>
> I still write stacks for my own use. I recently written a stack to help me study and identify photos and songs of birds. Also, I'm taking notes for a book and I've written a stack to help me organize the notes. I will eventually use the same stack to help me develop the book -- probably some kind of a one-paragraph-per-card arrangement with many summarizing, indexing, re-sequencing, search and notation features. I tweak old features and invent new ones as I go along.
>
> None of this seems very difficult. It's a gradual transition from HyperCard. I'm not really a nerd -- computers don't fascinate me all that much. I write a stack when the time invested justifies the functionality of the final product.
>
> It's gradually dawning on me that "programmers" like me have become rather rare. Fewer and fewer non-professionals on this list, as far as I can tell. I don't understand why, seems like a shame.
>
> Many people have use for the kind of functionality an amateur and dabbler can get out of LiveCode, and it isn't that hard to do.
>
> Admittedly, HyperCard was easier, simply because it was less complex. I've wondered if LiveCode might be more approachable if it had some kind of "dumb mode," sort of like the old userLevel system in HyperCard. Probably won't happen though.
>
> FWIW...
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On Jul 27, 2011, at 5:35 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> In the old days, Hypercard was. like a viral pandemic, infected the world because it was bundled with every Macintosh. It was offered like a promotion, a possibly valuable coupon one gets in the mail, which you will at least read before throwing out, And it became a nerd fad, with many hundreds of thousands of people trying it out. Certainly only a small fraction became enamored; many of those are reading this post.
>>
>>
>> Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill battle to engage people who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to it. Worse, these days, the mindset is that everything comes in small ready-to-go packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just don't think about building stuff, especially from raw materials. I used to, though.
>>
>>
>> Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that expectation, a far cry from reading a bank of eight lights telling you what byte was currently passing by.
>>
>>
>> LC should be taught in the ninth grade in every school in the world.
>>
>>
>> Craig Newman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Francis Nugent Dixon <[hidden email]>
>> To: use-livecode <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 2:42 am
>> Subject: Where does survive the inventive user ?
>>
>>
>> Alejandro asks some potent questions .....
>>
>> Question 1 - Is programming so easy ..... ?
>>
>> I think we should ask the question "Is programming a niche occupation ?
>>
>> During my early career, practically everybody I knew was a programmer
>> (birds of a feather flock together ?)
>>
>> Now I am out of the industry (retired), outside of the LiveCode forum,
>> I don't know anybody who programs (although most of my acquaintances
>> have computers and Google all day, they don't WRITE programs.)
>> Programming is a mentality, and there aren't many of us who have
>> this mentality (even to make money from it). Although LiveCode is
>> a great incentive for non-programmers to "have a go" , programming
>> is limiited to a strange mind-form which even I cannot define !
>> The question should be - "What is the VISIBILTY of LiveCode to the man
>> in the street who has never even thought about programming ?"
>> And the answer is "NONE". The chances of anybody "moving in" to
>> programming are about the same as being struck by lightning.
>>
>> Question 2  Did anyone know someone ..... ?
>>
>> I would think that buying a mobile platform (iPhone, iPad), and
>> learning to program are two ideas so far apart, as to be unlikely.
>> I do not know anyone who has started programming because of this
>> "mobile technology" and the platforms thereon. In a recent thread
>> on the forum I voiced my "No Way Baby" intent to NOT go to mobile
>> computing, although I wrote my first program more than 50 years
>> ago, and I still program EVERY day. The cost is far too high, and
>> the returns are doubtful ! I am a rare bird who now programs for fun.
>>
>> Question 3  Will mobile computing displace desktop computing .... ?
>>
>> This reminds me of the 1980's question "Will Desktop computing ever
>> displace Mainframe Computing ?" A lot of people said no in them days.
>>
>> Industry has been talking about "cloud computing" for years, and
>> IS slowly moving towards it. But, although I may accept having my
>> data in a cloud, I will always want my apps to be in my hand, so
>> I can have control over them. Renting application use out of a
>> cloud would be the same has handing over your wallet to a stranger.
>> You can see which  direction Apple is going. They want to charge
>> you for the use of YOUR OWN computer, and then for storing your
>> data in their cloud, and then for using their applications from
>> their cloud. That could cost you an arm and a leg. All my
>> communication in the hands of a stranger ? It's bad enough already!
>> God help us all in the future !
>>
>> The problem is - it's not hype - it's tomorrows computing, and
>> I don't like the way the wind is blowing .....
>>
>> The days when you rented an application, and you got the computer
>> for free may return. When computers become so dirt cheap that there
>> is no big profit to make, those guys "up there" have to think of a
>> new way to get your money.  We will soon be paying more for
>> communication facilities than we are spending on food
>> (si ce n'est deja fait !, as they say here)!
>>
>> "Nothing should ever be done for the first time !"
>>
>> -Francis
>>
>> PS. How about the question "When will we be grafting micro-chips
>> into the brain to allow us instant and global communication, and
>> complex problem solving and decision making ?
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Alejandro Tejada
In reply to this post by Francis Nugent Dixon
Hi Francis,

Francis Nugent Dixon wrote
Question 1 - Is programming so easy ..... ?
I think we should ask the question "Is programming a niche occupation ?
I understand programming as an exercise in Logical thinking.
Yes, I know, trust me, I know. Everyday we see so
many counterexamples, that we actually doubt
that "Logical" and "Thinking" are used in the same
phrase anymore.

My personal take is that programming IS NOT a niche occupation,
given the ubiquity of computers in modern society.

If for any reason, computers stop functioning in the future,
the outcome would be obvious...

Francis Nugent Dixon wrote
Programming is a mentality, and there aren't many of us who have
this mentality (even to make money from it). Although LiveCode is
a great incentive for non-programmers to "have a go" , programming
is limited to a strange mind-form which even I cannot define!
Programming should be associated with problem-solving.
Just another tool for solving everyday tasks.

Francis Nugent Dixon wrote
The question should be - "What is the VISIBILTY of LiveCode to the man
in the street who has never even thought about programming ?"
And the answer is "NONE". The chances of anybody "moving in" to
programming are about the same as being struck by lightning.
Actually this is a good visual metaphor.
Instead of a lightning bulb, struck by
lightning... :-D

Francis Nugent Dixon wrote
Question 3  Will mobile computing displace desktop computing .... ?
[snip]
You can see which  direction Apple is going. They want to charge
you for the use of YOUR OWN computer, and then for storing your
data in their cloud, and then for using their applications from
their cloud. That could cost you an arm and a leg. All my
communication in the hands of a stranger ? It's bad enough already!
God help us all in the future !

The problem is - it's not hype - it's tomorrows computing, and
I don't like the way the wind is blowing .....
Me neither. In the name of who knows what,
some "bright bulbs" would decide who, how,
when and how much each one could use
their "allowed" computer time...

Francis Nugent Dixon wrote
The days when you rented an application, and you got the computer
for free may return. When computers become so dirt cheap that there
is no big profit to make, those guys "up there" have to think of a
new way to get your money.  We will soon be paying more for
communication facilities than we are spending on food
(si ce n'est deja fait !, as they say here)!
Well, in some places, communications are more heavily taxed
than food: 28% vs 16%

Francis Nugent Dixon wrote
PS. How about the question "When will we be grafting micro-chips
into the brain to allow us instant and global communication, and
complex problem solving and decision making ?
Like "Neuromancer"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprawl_trilogy
or "Ghost in the  Shell"? ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell

Hopefully Not! :-D

Al
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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Chipp Walters
In reply to this post by dunbarxx
Craig,

You make some excellent points, most all I agree with. I was one of the few
who had a little experience in Fortran and Basic, but jumped at the HC
opportunity-- because it was there. Today, I believe there is so much more
'there' for folks. Tremendous interactive gaming consumes some. Others see a
future in learning all things web. More serious folks jump into XCode and
other serious frameworks.

There just isn't enough exposure to the wonders of xTalk languages except by
those already converted. You are right, too, about LC being taught in every
school-- but it's a huge tough sell.

Perhaps if LC was open sourced it would have more of a chance? But then, how
would RR get paid? Of course some Open Source apps have figured out how to
have a 'free' and 'commercial' version. Still, by Open Sourcing LC, would we
be dooming our favorite dev environment or guaranteeing it's success?


On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 7:35 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In the old days, Hypercard was. like a viral pandemic, infected the world
> because it was bundled with every Macintosh. It was offered like a
> promotion, a possibly valuable coupon one gets in the mail, which you will
> at least read before throwing out, And it became a nerd fad, with many
> hundreds of thousands of people trying it out. Certainly only a small
> fraction became enamored; many of those are reading this post.
>
>
> Without that once in a lifetime vehicle, it is an uphill battle to engage
> people who might fall in love with LC if they only were simply exposed to
> it. Worse, these days, the mindset is that everything comes in small
> ready-to-go packages, complete and compact. I have three kids who just don't
> think about building stuff, especially from raw materials. I used to,
> though.
>
>
> Thank the iMac, iPhone, iPod, etc., for creating that expectation, a far
> cry from reading a bank of eight lights telling you what byte was currently
> passing by.
>
>
> LC should be taught in the ninth grade in every school in the world.
>
>
> Craig Newman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francis Nugent Dixon <[hidden email]>
> To: use-livecode <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wed, Jul 27, 2011 2:42 am
> Subject: Where does survive the inventive user ?
>
>
> Alejandro asks some potent questions .....
>
> Question 1 - Is programming so easy ..... ?
>
> I think we should ask the question "Is programming a niche occupation ?
>
> During my early career, practically everybody I knew was a programmer
> (birds of a feather flock together ?)
>
> Now I am out of the industry (retired), outside of the LiveCode forum,
> I don't know anybody who programs (although most of my acquaintances
> have computers and Google all day, they don't WRITE programs.)
> Programming is a mentality, and there aren't many of us who have
> this mentality (even to make money from it). Although LiveCode is
> a great incentive for non-programmers to "have a go" , programming
> is limiited to a strange mind-form which even I cannot define !
> The question should be - "What is the VISIBILTY of LiveCode to the man
> in the street who has never even thought about programming ?"
> And the answer is "NONE". The chances of anybody "moving in" to
> programming are about the same as being struck by lightning.
>
> Question 2  Did anyone know someone ..... ?
>
> I would think that buying a mobile platform (iPhone, iPad), and
> learning to program are two ideas so far apart, as to be unlikely.
> I do not know anyone who has started programming because of this
> "mobile technology" and the platforms thereon. In a recent thread
> on the forum I voiced my "No Way Baby" intent to NOT go to mobile
> computing, although I wrote my first program more than 50 years
> ago, and I still program EVERY day. The cost is far too high, and
> the returns are doubtful ! I am a rare bird who now programs for fun.
>
> Question 3  Will mobile computing displace desktop computing .... ?
>
> This reminds me of the 1980's question "Will Desktop computing ever
> displace Mainframe Computing ?" A lot of people said no in them days.
>
> Industry has been talking about "cloud computing" for years, and
> IS slowly moving towards it. But, although I may accept having my
> data in a cloud, I will always want my apps to be in my hand, so
> I can have control over them. Renting application use out of a
> cloud would be the same has handing over your wallet to a stranger.
> You can see which  direction Apple is going. They want to charge
> you for the use of YOUR OWN computer, and then for storing your
> data in their cloud, and then for using their applications from
> their cloud. That could cost you an arm and a leg. All my
> communication in the hands of a stranger ? It's bad enough already!
> God help us all in the future !
>
> The problem is - it's not hype - it's tomorrows computing, and
> I don't like the way the wind is blowing .....
>
> The days when you rented an application, and you got the computer
> for free may return. When computers become so dirt cheap that there
> is no big profit to make, those guys "up there" have to think of a
> new way to get your money.  We will soon be paying more for
> communication facilities than we are spending on food
> (si ce n'est deja fait !, as they say here)!
>
> "Nothing should ever be done for the first time !"
>
> -Francis
>
> PS. How about the question "When will we be grafting micro-chips
> into the brain to allow us instant and global communication, and
> complex problem solving and decision making ?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>



--
Chipp Walters
CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc.
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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Alejandro Tejada
Hi Chipp,

Could help if you could use Livecode inside
OpenOffice as scripting language, just like
they use Python?

Al
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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

slylabs13
In reply to this post by Timothy Miller-2
Count me.

On Jul 27, 2011, at 6:25 PM, Timothy Miller wrote:

> It's gradually dawning on me that "programmers" like me have become rather rare. Fewer and fewer non-professionals on this list, as far as I can tell. I don't understand why, seems like a shame.


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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

slylabs13
In reply to this post by Chipp Walters
I'm going to say doom. I purchased the lifetime On-Rev and the 5 year license when it was offered, partly because I want to see these guys thrive. If they do not, then sooner or later Livecode is destined to fail. So I invested in them when they needed capital to grow. If they had stock I would probably by some. What if they had faltered back in the Revolution 2.0 days? I hate to think of having to do things without a datagrid, without behaviors that make things like sqlYoga possible. That was HUGE!

Also, it's the focus on making Livecode a particular thing, and not what a lot of other developers want it to be that lends itself to continued innovation along "the right lines" and I think Open Source would not maintain that vision. RunRev takes great care to prevent making other people's past projects obsolete by ensuring the way things currently work will work tomorrow (sometimes to my disappointment). I do not think that Open Sourcing Livecode would preserve that consideration for backwards compatibility.

Bob


On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:11 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

> Perhaps if LC was open sourced it would have more of a chance? But then, how
> would RR get paid? Of course some Open Source apps have figured out how to
> have a 'free' and 'commercial' version. Still, by Open Sourcing LC, would we
> be dooming our favorite dev environment or guaranteeing it's success?


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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Timothy Miller-2
A one-seat, one-platform version of LiveCode is quite affordable.

Here's a scheme that might draw new, untrained users. Make LC into some kind of a game.

It starts with most of LC's features crippled or hidden. To unlock features you have to solve challenges. Step one, obviously -- Make a field, a button, and a script that puts "hello world" into the field. That unlocks one or two more commands, properties, objects, or whatever. Then you've got to do something a little harder, and so on. Lots of hints, prompts and mini-tutorials along the way. A moderately intelligent user who goofs around with it now and then could get pretty skilled within six months, or less.

I'm not in favor of Open Source for LC, for the usual reasons. It might be interesting to see what happens if a crippled form of LC is sold as a game, as described above, at a rather low price, perhaps free, with copyrights protected. It could catch, on virally perhaps. Those who become skilled and remain interested could upgrade to the full-featured version.

There's no obvious reason the "HyperCard revolution" could not happen again. I'd love to see it.

I meet lots of young people who want to learn to "program." Most of them don't even know what that means, or they think running a malware-dection app and reinstalling the OS is "programming."

When I was first learning hyperCard, I had a HyperCard stack that taught you how to use HyperCard. That's how I started. Don't remember much about it.

Cheers,

Tim

On Jul 28, 2011, at 9:05 AM, Bob Sneidar wrote:

> I'm going to say doom. I purchased the lifetime On-Rev and the 5 year license when it was offered, partly because I want to see these guys thrive. If they do not, then sooner or later Livecode is destined to fail. So I invested in them when they needed capital to grow. If they had stock I would probably by some. What if they had faltered back in the Revolution 2.0 days? I hate to think of having to do things without a datagrid, without behaviors that make things like sqlYoga possible. That was HUGE!
>
> Also, it's the focus on making Livecode a particular thing, and not what a lot of other developers want it to be that lends itself to continued innovation along "the right lines" and I think Open Source would not maintain that vision. RunRev takes great care to prevent making other people's past projects obsolete by ensuring the way things currently work will work tomorrow (sometimes to my disappointment). I do not think that Open Sourcing Livecode would preserve that consideration for backwards compatibility.
>
> Bob
>


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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Chipp Walters
Timothy,

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Apple, with all it's marketing
prowess, and free version of HC, and included on every Mac, with no
competition from the Internet, and seriously hyped by all, still couldn't
make it work.

Let's not forget, HC was a TCP/IP stack away from BEING a first browser (
http://www.isegoria.net/2008/05/hypercard-what-could-have-been/), so I'm
don't think it could happen again-- though of course I would be rooting for
it!

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Timothy Miller <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> There's no obvious reason the "HyperCard revolution" could not happen
> again. I'd love to see it.
>
>
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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

slylabs13
I don't agree that Hypercard didn't work. It worked amazingly! Just not as a mainstream development environment, but it was never marketed or presented as such. A lot of people wrote Xcmd's for it. One guy wrote an Xcmd that allowed you to access a dBase database file and read and write to it. It wasn't very good though, very buggy, but the concept was sound.

I think Hypercard happened too early, and lacked so many things for so long that people eventually went elsewhere. It took them forever to include color support, and then it wasn't very good, and Apple had already been trying to dump it for some time. It was a half hearted effort on Apple's part that really spelled the doom of Hypercard, and who can blame them? It wasn't exactly a profit center!

Bob


On Jul 28, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

> Timothy,
>
> I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Apple, with all it's marketing
> prowess, and free version of HC, and included on every Mac, with no
> competition from the Internet, and seriously hyped by all, still couldn't
> make it work.
>
> Let's not forget, HC was a TCP/IP stack away from BEING a first browser (
> http://www.isegoria.net/2008/05/hypercard-what-could-have-been/), so I'm
> don't think it could happen again-- though of course I would be rooting for
> it!
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Timothy Miller <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> There's no obvious reason the "HyperCard revolution" could not happen
>> again. I'd love to see it.
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Stephen Barncard-4
In reply to this post by Chipp Walters
I know, I tried to do it myself in the early 90s. TCP/IP on the mac was
quite unreliable.

On 28 July 2011 15:00, Chipp Walters <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Let's not forget, HC was a TCP/IP stack away from BEING a first browser (
> http://www.isegoria.net/2008/05/hypercard-what-could-have-been/), so I'm
> don't think it could happen again-- though of course I would be rooting for
> it!
>

Stephen Barncard
San Francisco Ca. USA

more about sqb  <http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar>
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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Timothy Miller-2
In reply to this post by slylabs13
What Bob said.

Tim


On Jul 28, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:

> I don't agree that Hypercard didn't work. It worked amazingly! Just not as a mainstream development environment, but it was never marketed or presented as such. A lot of people wrote Xcmd's for it. One guy wrote an Xcmd that allowed you to access a dBase database file and read and write to it. It wasn't very good though, very buggy, but the concept was sound.
>
> I think Hypercard happened too early, and lacked so many things for so long that people eventually went elsewhere. It took them forever to include color support, and then it wasn't very good, and Apple had already been trying to dump it for some time. It was a half hearted effort on Apple's part that really spelled the doom of Hypercard, and who can blame them? It wasn't exactly a profit center!
>
> Bob


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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Robert Brenstein
In reply to this post by slylabs13
On 28.07.2011 at 15:50 Uhr -0700 Bob Sneidar apparently wrote:
>I don't agree that Hypercard didn't work. It worked amazingly! Just
>not as a mainstream development environment, but it was never
>marketed or presented as such. A lot of people wrote Xcmd's for it.
>One guy wrote an Xcmd that allowed you to access a dBase database
>file and read and write to it. It wasn't very good though, very
>buggy, but the concept was sound.
>

If I recall, HyperCard was called an "erector set" for Mac users, not
necessarily programmers, and indeed used mostly by non-professional
programmers. There was also an Xcmd for Valentina -- yes, I started
using Valentina database with HyperCard -- and it worked really well
but Valentina was not network based then.

Robert

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Re: Where does survive the inventive user ?

Stephen Barncard-4
In reply to this post by slylabs13
Well I  used it in a professional environment (AM Studios) for several years
and nobody seemed to mention that it might seem non-professional. I have
worked in 6502 and Z80 assembly for quite a while before the Mac and
hypercard. HC was quite a libration from the tedium of just getting a window
with a button on the screen in ZBasic and everybody was quite surprised and
happy that the project got done on schedule and happily in use by the staff
- so much I got a big bonus when Herb left the company.

On 28 July 2011 19:40, Robert Brenstein <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>>
>>
> If I recall, HyperCard was called an "erector set" for Mac users, not
> necessarily programmers, and indeed used mostly by non-professional
> programmers. There was also an Xcmd for Valentina -- yes, I started using
> Valentina database with HyperCard -- and it worked really well but Valentina
> was not network based then.
>
> Robert
>
>
>

Stephen Barncard
San Francisco Ca. USA

more about sqb  <http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar>
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