Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

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Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I see that it won't run on an x86 emulator - will it work on on actual x86 device?

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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I don't think LiveCode (the development environment) will work on
Android of any sort: but it should develop standalones that work on Android.

Richmond.

On 4/26/17 9:45 pm, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
> I see that it won't run on an x86 emulator - will it work on on actual x86 device?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I don't think you can build for x86 android but i'm not positive.

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think LiveCode (the development environment) will work on
> Android of any sort: but it should develop standalones that work on
> Android.
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 4/26/17 9:45 pm, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> I see that it won't run on an x86 emulator - will it work on on actual
>> x86 device?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
x86 Android devices can run ARM code in emulation. The performance would be better if you could publish to x86, but the app should work.


> On Apr 26, 2017, at 12:22 PM, Mike Bonner via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I don't think you can build for x86 android but i'm not positive.
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I don't think LiveCode (the development environment) will work on
>> Android of any sort: but it should develop standalones that work on
>> Android.
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
>> On 4/26/17 9:45 pm, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
>>
>>> I see that it won't run on an x86 emulator - will it work on on actual
>>> x86 device?


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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Lol - thank you - that is what I meant.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 26, 2017, at 3:12 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I don't think LiveCode (the development environment) will work on
> Android of any sort: but it should develop standalones that work on Android.
>
> Richmond.
>
>> On 4/26/17 9:45 pm, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
>> I see that it won't run on an x86 emulator - will it work on on actual x86 device?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Does it run arm-emulation automatically or do we need to warn it?

The parts I use that are processor-intensive are running in the browser widget, which I assume runs on both architectures.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 26, 2017, at 3:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Lol - thank you - that is what I meant.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 3:12 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think LiveCode (the development environment) will work on
>> Android of any sort: but it should develop standalones that work on Android.
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
>>> On 4/26/17 9:45 pm, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
>>> I see that it won't run on an x86 emulator - will it work on on actual x86 device?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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>>
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RE: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I run an x86 tablet for testing and LC apps work but it's slow like 1/3
speed.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
[hidden email]


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 2:45 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

I see that it won't run on an x86 emulator - will it work on on actual x86
device?

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Isn't Android a type of Linux?

Arguably a Linux standalone should work better on x86 Android devices . . .

So; here's LiveCode's next headache:

How to build a Linux standalone which can be installed on an x86 Android
device.

Richmond.

On 4/26/17 10:26 pm, Colin Holgate via use-livecode wrote:

> x86 Android devices can run ARM code in emulation. The performance would be better if you could publish to x86, but the app should work.
>
>
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 12:22 PM, Mike Bonner via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think you can build for x86 android but i'm not positive.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think LiveCode (the development environment) will work on
>>> Android of any sort: but it should develop standalones that work on
>>> Android.
>>>
>>> Richmond.
>>>
>>> On 4/26/17 9:45 pm, Jonathan Lynch via use-livecode wrote:
>>>
>>>> I see that it won't run on an x86 emulator - will it work on on actual
>>>> x86 device?
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 4/28/17 3:03 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
> Isn't Android a type of Linux?
>
> Arguably a Linux standalone should work better on x86 Android devices . . .
>
> So; here's LiveCode's next headache:
>
> How to build a Linux standalone which can be installed on an x86 Android
> device.

Mobile limitations are fairly severe, and most of the IDE tools wouldn't
work. Just the fact that only one window at a time can be open would
remove the ability to display palettes, tools, plugins, app and project
browsers, etc. Also, no floating script editor.

Then imagine trying trying to type scripts on a 5-inch phone keyboard.

That's just a start of the list of things that can't be done currently
on mobile.

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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
I wasn't suggesting a version of the development IDE for x86 Android . . .

On 4/29/17 12:05 am, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

> On 4/28/17 3:03 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
>> Isn't Android a type of Linux?
>>
>> Arguably a Linux standalone should work better on x86 Android devices
>> . . .
>>
>> So; here's LiveCode's next headache:
>>
>> How to build a Linux standalone which can be installed on an x86 Android
>> device.
>
> Mobile limitations are fairly severe, and most of the IDE tools
> wouldn't work.

That's not what I meant: I meant the ability to hive off standalones
that would run natively
on x86 Android.

> Just the fact that only one window at a time can be open would remove
> the ability to display palettes, tools, plugins, app and project
> browsers, etc. Also, no floating script editor.
>
> Then imagine trying trying to type scripts on a 5-inch phone keyboard.
>
> That's just a start of the list of things that can't be done currently
> on mobile.
>

Richmond.
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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Richmond Mathewson wrote:

 > I wasn't suggesting a version of the development IDE for x86 Android
. . .
 >
 > On 4/29/17 12:05 am, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
 >> On 4/28/17 3:03 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
 >>> Isn't Android a type of Linux?
 >>>
 >>> Arguably a Linux standalone should work better on x86 Android devices
 >>> . . .
 >>>
 >>> So; here's LiveCode's next headache:
 >>>
 >>> How to build a Linux standalone which can be installed on an x86
Android
 >>> device.
 >>
 >> Mobile limitations are fairly severe, and most of the IDE tools
 >> wouldn't work.
 >
 > That's not what I meant: I meant the ability to hive off standalones
 > that would run natively
 > on x86 Android.

There's more to Linux than the kernel.

The LC engine for Linux has fewer dependencies than most (it amazes me
just how deeply reliant some apps are on very specific system
configurations), but it does expect a reasonable baseline of GDK and
other elements found on nearly all Linux desktop systems, which I don't
believe are part of Android.

So while we can build for a very wide range of Linux distros, Android is
Linux-based (as in, it uses the kernel and a handful of other packages)
but is not a Linux distro per se.

I don't believe Android includes what the LC engine expects to find in
order to run.


I had thought one of the reasons Android uses the Dalvik and ART VMs is
because they're VMs, separating the APIs from processor architectures.

If so, then the LC engine for Android is bytecode rather than machine
code, and as such should run on either processor architecture, no?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode


On 4/29/17 6:13 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

> Richmond Mathewson wrote:
>
> > I wasn't suggesting a version of the development IDE for x86 Android
> . . .
> >
> > On 4/29/17 12:05 am, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> >> On 4/28/17 3:03 PM, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
> >>> Isn't Android a type of Linux?
> >>>
> >>> Arguably a Linux standalone should work better on x86 Android devices
> >>> . . .
> >>>
> >>> So; here's LiveCode's next headache:
> >>>
> >>> How to build a Linux standalone which can be installed on an x86
> Android
> >>> device.
> >>
> >> Mobile limitations are fairly severe, and most of the IDE tools
> >> wouldn't work.
> >
> > That's not what I meant: I meant the ability to hive off standalones
> > that would run natively
> > on x86 Android.
>
> There's more to Linux than the kernel.
>
> The LC engine for Linux has fewer dependencies than most (it amazes me
> just how deeply reliant some apps are on very specific system
> configurations), but it does expect a reasonable baseline of GDK and
> other elements found on nearly all Linux desktop systems, which I
> don't believe are part of Android.
>
> So while we can build for a very wide range of Linux distros, Android
> is Linux-based (as in, it uses the kernel and a handful of other
> packages) but is not a Linux distro per se.
>
> I don't believe Android includes what the LC engine expects to find in
> order to run.

If that is so why can LiveCode make standalones that run on ARM Android?

>
>
> I had thought one of the reasons Android uses the Dalvik and ART VMs
> is because they're VMs, separating the APIs from processor architectures.
>
> If so, then the LC engine for Android is bytecode rather than machine
> code, and as such should run on either processor architecture, no?
>


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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Richmond Mathewson wrote:

 > On 4/29/17 6:13 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
 >> So while we can build for a very wide range of Linux distros,
 >> Android is Linux-based (as in, it uses the kernel and a handful
 >> of other packages) but is not a Linux distro per se.
 >>
 >> I don't believe Android includes what the LC engine expects to find
 >> in order to run.
 >
 > If that is so why can LiveCode make standalones that run on ARM
 > Android?

But can you run an Android APK made with LiveCode on an ARM Linux OS?

LC-built APKs expect things the Android OS packages provide.

Similarly, you can use the Raspberry Pi build of LC to deploy to ARM
devices running Linux ARM distros packaged for that hardware, since that
LC engine is compiled for the packages expected on Raspian and
Raspian-like systems (e.g. Debian ARM, Ubuntu Core ARM, etc.).

The CPU architecture is only part of a complete breakfast.  Delivering
an application to that CPU will require integration with the OS it will
run under.


<Semi-OT RPi ran>
As much as I enjoy having my Rpi2 and RPi3, I've only found one
practical use for either (in progress; will probably write an article
about it for MagPi when it's done).

For IoT they're wonderful, but for anything that needs a GUI even the
RPi3 isn't very satisfying for someone used to ordinary desktop
performance.  And if a 100 Gb Ethernet port weren't bottleneck enough,
sharing the controller with the USB 2 (yes, 2) port doesn't help.

As wonderful as it is to get a mobo for US$35, by the time you get a
case, power supply, MicroSD card of reasonable size, and any other
add-ons you might need, you're up to about $80.

Still not bad, but for just twice the price you can get more than 4
times the computing with one of the Atom- or Celeron-powered NUCs or
Compute Sticks.

And with a NUC or stick you get the rest of the full x86 ecosystem,
which includes being able to run the latest and greatest LC IDE on it
quite comfortably.

There's a place for RPi, but there are more places for NUCs and sticks.
And with so many knock-offs available, NUC and stick options below $200
abound.
</Semi-OT RPi ran>


--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 4/29/17 1:25 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> If that is so why can LiveCode make standalones that run on ARM
>> Android?
>
> But can you run an Android APK made with LiveCode on an ARM Linux OS?

Seems to me, Richmond's question is the same as "Why can't we run a Mac
app on Windows? They both use Intel processors."

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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
J. Landman Gay wrote:
 > On 4/29/17 1:25 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
 >>> If that is so why can LiveCode make standalones that run on ARM
 >>> Android?
 >>
 >> But can you run an Android APK made with LiveCode on an ARM Linux OS?
 >
 > Seems to me, Richmond's question is the same as "Why can't we run a
 > Mac app on Windows? They both use Intel processors."

We see a variant of that question almost every week in the Ubuntu forums. :)

--
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  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On Sat, 4/29/17, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> I had thought one of the reasons Android uses the Dalvik and ART
> VMs is because they're VMs, separating the APIs from processor architectures.
>
> If so, then the LC engine for Android is bytecode rather than machine
> code, and as such should run on either processor architecture, no?
>

Hi Richard et al,

Actually, LiveCode was not rewritten in Java, nor compiled to Dalvik/ART bytecode.
The engine for Android is largely written in the same C++ as for the other platforms.
And then compiled to native ARM instructions for the specific Android variant of Linux.

Most Android apps are written in Java, and occasionally tap into native code via the Android Native Development Kit (NDK).
Android NDK is the platform-specific implementation of the Java Native Interface (JNI).
Android has multiple Application Binary Interfaces (ABIs) to support various architectures.

ARM Android apps that don't need access to native code can run 'as is' on x86 Android devices.
Those that do need native code, will have to compile separate builds (and may bundle them into a single 'fat' APK).
Or they have to rely on the ARM-on-x86 emulation feature named Houdini.

So LiveCode is a bit of an outsider, as the apps it produces spend little time in the Dalvik/ART virtual machine.
All scripts run in the native portion, and events are funneled from the VM into native code to be handled there.

All this to say: if we want native x86 Android apps, then the LiveCode team will have to crank up the compilers again...

Jan Schenkel.

=====
Quartam Reports & PDF Library for LiveCode
www.quartam.com
=====
"As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."  (La Rochefoucauld)

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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Jan Schenkel wrote:

 > So LiveCode is a bit of an outsider, as the apps it produces spend
 > little time in the Dalvik/ART virtual machine. All scripts run in the
 > native portion, and events are funneled from the VM into native code
 > to be handled there.

This leaves me wondering which percentage is larger:

How many Android apps like LiveCode are written in C++ rather than Java?

-vs-

How many Android devices have an x86 processor?

My hunch is that there are more C++ apps on Android than there are x86
devices they can't run on, but I have no data on that.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
On 05/01/2017 04:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

> How many Android devices have an x86 processor?
>
> My hunch is that there are more C++ apps on Android than there are x86
> devices they can't run on, but I have no data on that.
>

I believe all the Chromebooks have Intel chips. This includes the 2016+
models with Android app compatibility. The rollout of the compatibility
layer to Chromebooks is slow but there's an impressive list of planned
(as in don't hold your breath) hardware here:

https://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/chromium-os/chrome-os-systems-supporting-android-apps?rd=1

...and as noted here,

https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/7021273

"Also, some apps don’t work with Chromebooks, so you won’t be able to
download them."

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  [hidden email]

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Re: Will LiveCode run an x86 android device?

Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Mark Wieder wrote:

 > On 05/01/2017 04:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
 >
 >> How many Android devices have an x86 processor?
 >>
 >> My hunch is that there are more C++ apps on Android than there are x86
 >> devices they can't run on, but I have no data on that.
 >>
 >
 > I believe all the Chromebooks have Intel chips. This includes the
 > 2016+  models with Android app compatibility.

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten Chrome now runs Android apps.

Given that Chromebooks are by far the fastest-growing device type in
EDU, if it were up to me I know what enhancement I'd have the engine
team working on next...

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
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