Windows: "not responding"

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Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
We've discussed many times here the anomaly in which an LC process on
Windows is running quite fine, but when it's working really hard the OS
starts monkeying with the window appearance, adding the string
"application is not responding" in the title bar.

In all cases I've see thus far, the app itself is fine, but apparently
it's not yielding enough cycles to the OS for the OS to feel comfortable
about the relationship.

Based on early conversations here, I had thought that a solution
addressing this was in progress, but checking the bug DB I can't find
even a report for this at all, let alone one noting "In Progress".

Anyone here know the status of this issue?  Should I file a new report
on it?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On 8/7/2018 1:58 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

> We've discussed many times here the anomaly in which an LC process on
> Windows is running quite fine, but when it's working really hard the
> OS starts monkeying with the window appearance, adding the string
> "application is not responding" in the title bar.
>
> In all cases I've see thus far, the app itself is fine, but apparently
> it's not yielding enough cycles to the OS for the OS to feel
> comfortable about the relationship.
>
> Based on early conversations here, I had thought that a solution
> addressing this was in progress, but checking the bug DB I can't find
> even a report for this at all, let alone one noting "In Progress".
>
> Anyone here know the status of this issue?  Should I file a new report
> on it?
>
I run into to this symptom more often than I would like to see as well.


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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
I don’t think this is an issue exclusive to LC. My main Access DB has code that will do the same thing. Sometimes things come back fine because it was just busy (SharePoint issues do cause it to get totally hung sometimes as well though).

Thanks,
Brian
On Aug 7, 2018, 1:07 PM -0500, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <[hidden email]>, wrote:

> On 8/7/2018 1:58 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> > We've discussed many times here the anomaly in which an LC process on
> > Windows is running quite fine, but when it's working really hard the
> > OS starts monkeying with the window appearance, adding the string
> > "application is not responding" in the title bar.
> >
> > In all cases I've see thus far, the app itself is fine, but apparently
> > it's not yielding enough cycles to the OS for the OS to feel
> > comfortable about the relationship.
> >
> > Based on early conversations here, I had thought that a solution
> > addressing this was in progress, but checking the bug DB I can't find
> > even a report for this at all, let alone one noting "In Progress".
> >
> > Anyone here know the status of this issue?  Should I file a new report
> > on it?
> >
> I run into to this symptom more often than I would like to see as well.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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RE: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Same here. Many Windows apps do it. It seems that Windows can't tell the difference between heavy I/O and a true "Not Responding" I have seen this behavior since Win 3.1 and it hasn't changes all the way to Win 10. It especially happens when there is heavy I/O is on a SMB share. I suspect it's a locking algorithm that does not always know why it's still waiting for a lock to be released. I work on Windows, Mac and a little Linux. It seems Linux handles this much better.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
[hidden email]


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Brian Milby via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 2:14 PM
To: [hidden email]; How to use LiveCode
Cc: Brian Milby
Subject: Re: Windows: "not responding"

I don’t think this is an issue exclusive to LC. My main Access DB has code that will do the same thing. Sometimes things come back fine because it was just busy (SharePoint issues do cause it to get totally hung sometimes as well though).

Thanks,
Brian
On Aug 7, 2018, 1:07 PM -0500, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <[hidden email]>, wrote:

> On 8/7/2018 1:58 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> > We've discussed many times here the anomaly in which an LC process
> > on Windows is running quite fine, but when it's working really hard
> > the OS starts monkeying with the window appearance, adding the
> > string "application is not responding" in the title bar.
> >
> > In all cases I've see thus far, the app itself is fine, but
> > apparently it's not yielding enough cycles to the OS for the OS to
> > feel comfortable about the relationship.
> >
> > Based on early conversations here, I had thought that a solution
> > addressing this was in progress, but checking the bug DB I can't
> > find even a report for this at all, let alone one noting "In Progress".
> >
> > Anyone here know the status of this issue?  Should I file a new
> > report on it?
> >
> I run into to this symptom more often than I would like to see as well.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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RE: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Also, I was able to reduce this by calls to WMPaint or in VB to DoEvents while in a tight loop doing I/O. This brings me back to the never ending question: When is the equivalent to "DoEvents" in LC? "Wait in time with messages" does not always do it.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
[hidden email]


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Brian Milby via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 2:14 PM
To: [hidden email]; How to use LiveCode
Cc: Brian Milby
Subject: Re: Windows: "not responding"

I don’t think this is an issue exclusive to LC. My main Access DB has code that will do the same thing. Sometimes things come back fine because it was just busy (SharePoint issues do cause it to get totally hung sometimes as well though).

Thanks,
Brian
On Aug 7, 2018, 1:07 PM -0500, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <[hidden email]>, wrote:

> On 8/7/2018 1:58 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> > We've discussed many times here the anomaly in which an LC process
> > on Windows is running quite fine, but when it's working really hard
> > the OS starts monkeying with the window appearance, adding the
> > string "application is not responding" in the title bar.
> >
> > In all cases I've see thus far, the app itself is fine, but
> > apparently it's not yielding enough cycles to the OS for the OS to
> > feel comfortable about the relationship.
> >
> > Based on early conversations here, I had thought that a solution
> > addressing this was in progress, but checking the bug DB I can't
> > find even a report for this at all, let alone one noting "In Progress".
> >
> > Anyone here know the status of this issue?  Should I file a new
> > report on it?
> >
> I run into to this symptom more often than I would like to see as well.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
IIRC, earlier discussions here about this do recognize that it's about a
certain finickiness with Windows, but also acknowledged that this seems
to happen more frequently in LC apps than others.  Personally, I see
this very rarely in anything other than LC, and in LC apps quite often.
Customers find it very disturbing, and have expressed a temptation to
force-quit the app based on the (apparently erroneous) guidance provided
to them by the OS.

In those earlier discussions there was talk of the method Windows
expects for an app to effectively tell it, "I'm still alive, just
working", which is apparently not being done as frequently as the OS
needs to get the message.

This all seemed so fresh in that earlier discussion that I somehow
(perhaps mistakenly) got the impression it was under active development.
  But I can't find anything in the bug DB suggesting that's the case.

I don't mind opening a new issue for this, just wanted to see if doing
so would create a duplicate of something that's already there.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems


Brian Milby wrote:

> I don’t think this is an issue exclusive to LC. My main Access DB has code that will do the same thing. Sometimes things come back fine because it was just busy (SharePoint issues do cause it to get totally hung sometimes as well though).
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
> On Aug 7, 2018, 1:07 PM -0500, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <use-livecode at lists.runrev.com>, wrote:
>> On 8/7/2018 1:58 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> > We've discussed many times here the anomaly in which an LC process on
>> > Windows is running quite fine, but when it's working really hard the
>> > OS starts monkeying with the window appearance, adding the string
>> > "application is not responding" in the title bar.
>> >
>> > In all cases I've see thus far, the app itself is fine, but apparently
>> > it's not yielding enough cycles to the OS for the OS to feel
>> > comfortable about the relationship.
>> >
>> > Based on early conversations here, I had thought that a solution
>> > addressing this was in progress, but checking the bug DB I can't find
>> > even a report for this at all, let alone one noting "In Progress".
>> >
>> > Anyone here know the status of this issue?  Should I file a new report
>> > on it?
>> >
>> I run into to this symptom more often than I would like to see as well.
>>

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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On 8/7/2018 3:26 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> Also, I was able to reduce this by calls to WMPaint or in VB to DoEvents while in a tight loop doing I/O. This brings me back to the never ending question: When is the equivalent to "DoEvents" in LC? "Wait in time with messages" does not always do it.

wait 0 with messages *should* do it.


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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On 8/7/2018 3:43 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> I don't mind opening a new issue for this, just wanted to see if doing
> so would create a duplicate of something that's already there.

Please open the issue in the quality center. If it is improvable, I
would like to see it improved, if not fully fixed.


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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Paul Dupuis wrote:
> On 8/7/2018 3:43 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> I don't mind opening a new issue for this, just wanted to see if doing
>> so would create a duplicate of something that's already there.
>
> Please open the issue in the quality center. If it is improvable, I
> would like to see it improved, if not fully fixed.

Thanks, will do.  Do you have a succinct recipe?  I'm sure I could come
up with one, but at the moment I'm seeing this in complex things too
cumbersome to submit as an example, so if you know a quickie way to get
this I'll run with it.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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RE: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
I just got "application is not responding" from the Win 10 Task Manager for
about 10 seconds before it came back. I don't say that LC could not improve
on this but if one of Windows core utilities can't avoid it, then in my
humble opinion LC can only mitigate it but never solve it.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
[hidden email]


-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 1:59 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Richard Gaskin
Subject: Windows: "not responding"

We've discussed many times here the anomaly in which an LC process on
Windows is running quite fine, but when it's working really hard the OS
starts monkeying with the window appearance, adding the string "application
is not responding" in the title bar.

In all cases I've see thus far, the app itself is fine, but apparently it's
not yielding enough cycles to the OS for the OS to feel comfortable about
the relationship.

Based on early conversations here, I had thought that a solution addressing
this was in progress, but checking the bug DB I can't find even a report for
this at all, let alone one noting "In Progress".

Anyone here know the status of this issue?  Should I file a new report on
it?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On 8/14/2018 2:09 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode wrote:
> I just got "application is not responding" from the Win 10 Task Manager for
> about 10 seconds before it came back. I don't say that LC could not improve
> on this but if one of Windows core utilities can't avoid it, then in my
> humble opinion LC can only mitigate it but never solve it.
>
Undoubtedly true, but it is still darned annoying. I was just working
with an App processing 7334 records. It has a counter in a window, doing
the "Preparing <count> of <total>" so I can see its progress as each
record takes many seconds. At "Preparing 3541 of 7334" Windows 8.1
declared that the window was "not responding" and stopped updating the
counter windows. I could tell it was still running because it also does
a "set cursor to busy" after each record and while Windows switched the
LiveCode beachball spinning busy cursor to its blue ring of death, if I
move the cursor over a different window of the app it changed back to
the spinning busy cursor and kept on spinning at the expected rate.

I think this Windows issue in 8.x and 10 impacts people doing various
intensive data processing tasks the most by preventing updates to status
windows while the script executes. Now trying inserting various "wait
... with messages" to see if I can get it to display the counter all the
way to the end (about 1.5 hours each test!)

It would be nice if some LiveCode, Ltd expert could at least look into
this and let people know if they can do anything in their apps to avoid
this rather than leave us to try different thing hoping something we
stumble upon may work.


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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
I think they did. As I recall, the upshot was that this is a Windows thing, and Livecode is not the only victim. In fact, we use a product by Prism called DocRecord, and it will exhibit similar behavior when running on a slower PC with less than optimal resources.

I'm thinking maybe this would be a good task to hand off to some kind of agent app. It's easy to do with sockets, passing information back and forth. I wrote a Spinner app and compiled it, which would receive Applescript commands to show/hide itself, display a progress indicator, and display a status message. Since it was compiled as it's own app, it ran in it's own thread, so leaving my main app to go about it's business while it was doing it's thing.

For my purposes it was only a progress dialog because an animated gif will only update while Livecode is idle, which it never is when I need a progress indicator.

Bob S


> On Aug 14, 2018, at 12:32 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It would be nice if some LiveCode, Ltd expert could at least look into
> this and let people know if they can do anything in their apps to avoid
> this rather than leave us to try different thing hoping something we
> stumble upon may work.


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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
if i had a penny for every time this has come up....

i do not enjoy having to slow down my handlers by adding a wait with
messages command ..... its a noticeable drop in data processing
performance.  this HAS to be addressed at the level of the engine.  The OS
is supposed to schedule CPU cycles to different processes .... and for some
reason the engine is asking for top priority.

has anyone ever tried lowering the priority level in the task manager ? to
see if that has an effect on this problem?.... i might go test that out the
next time i'm in lc.


On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think they did. As I recall, the upshot was that this is a Windows
> thing, and Livecode is not the only victim. In fact, we use a product by
> Prism called DocRecord, and it will exhibit similar behavior when running
> on a slower PC with less than optimal resources.
>
> I'm thinking maybe this would be a good task to hand off to some kind of
> agent app. It's easy to do with sockets, passing information back and
> forth. I wrote a Spinner app and compiled it, which would receive
> Applescript commands to show/hide itself, display a progress indicator, and
> display a status message. Since it was compiled as it's own app, it ran in
> it's own thread, so leaving my main app to go about it's business while it
> was doing it's thing.
>
> For my purposes it was only a progress dialog because an animated gif will
> only update while Livecode is idle, which it never is when I need a
> progress indicator.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Aug 14, 2018, at 12:32 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > It would be nice if some LiveCode, Ltd expert could at least look into
> > this and let people know if they can do anything in their apps to avoid
> > this rather than leave us to try different thing hoping something we
> > stumble upon may work.
>
>
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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
nope. doesn't seem to have any effect.

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 4:12 PM, Tom Glod <[hidden email]> wrote:

> if i had a penny for every time this has come up....
>
> i do not enjoy having to slow down my handlers by adding a wait with
> messages command ..... its a noticeable drop in data processing
> performance.  this HAS to be addressed at the level of the engine.  The OS
> is supposed to schedule CPU cycles to different processes .... and for some
> reason the engine is asking for top priority.
>
> has anyone ever tried lowering the priority level in the task manager ? to
> see if that has an effect on this problem?.... i might go test that out the
> next time i'm in lc.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I think they did. As I recall, the upshot was that this is a Windows
>> thing, and Livecode is not the only victim. In fact, we use a product by
>> Prism called DocRecord, and it will exhibit similar behavior when running
>> on a slower PC with less than optimal resources.
>>
>> I'm thinking maybe this would be a good task to hand off to some kind of
>> agent app. It's easy to do with sockets, passing information back and
>> forth. I wrote a Spinner app and compiled it, which would receive
>> Applescript commands to show/hide itself, display a progress indicator, and
>> display a status message. Since it was compiled as it's own app, it ran in
>> it's own thread, so leaving my main app to go about it's business while it
>> was doing it's thing.
>>
>> For my purposes it was only a progress dialog because an animated gif
>> will only update while Livecode is idle, which it never is when I need a
>> progress indicator.
>>
>> Bob S
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 14, 2018, at 12:32 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > It would be nice if some LiveCode, Ltd expert could at least look into
>> > this and let people know if they can do anything in their apps to avoid
>> > this rather than leave us to try different thing hoping something we
>> > stumble upon may work.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
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>>
>
>
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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Bob Sneidar wrote:

 > I think they did. As I recall, the upshot was that this is a Windows
 > thing, and Livecode is not the only victim.

Already addressed when this came up a week ago:
http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2018-August/249081.html

TL;DR: LC is not alone, but evidences this far more often than anything
else most of us have seen.

IIRC the issue has been acknowledged by the team, and I believe steps
are underway to address it, or at least slated.

Anyone know the BZ# for this?

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode

I recently ran a Windows app from a major publisher that used a very big
percentage of both the CPU and the GPU (my computer didn't meet the
minimum specs) without any complaints at all from the OS. High CPU, but
totally responsive. Worked just fine.

And that's one tiny snowflake on the tip of the iceberg. There are so
many Win apps that handle intensive processing tasks without a hitch. So
it's not a matter of apps being unable to crunch data on PCs. There may
be very compelling and knowledgeable reasons why it's been a problem
here, maybe it is even a Windows hurdle, but still we must acknowledge
what our eyes can see, that Windows is not lacking for serious apps of
all types that can deliver serious performance.

So I too would love to see the engine get some tweaks for Windows. And
Windows is a great place for LiveCode, probably an underutilized market.
It wouldn't hurt to bring more PC customers into the fold.

Meanwhile, most LC scripts can be way more optimized than what they are.
Standard scripting techniques are not good enough! I also use a budget
PC and an aging Mac for my regular work, so I usually see any
performance issues nearer to the beginning of a project, unless I'm
caught out by using a sample data set that's too small.

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Windows: "not responding"

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
to add something to this.... what also seems to help alleviate the problem
is to change the frequency in which the screen updates happen......so show
the progress every 10% instead of every .1% or 1%.

LC is actually really fast at processing variables and chunks....and to be
able to go top speed will be great .....one day when this is addressed.

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 5:31 PM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I recently ran a Windows app from a major publisher that used a very big
> percentage of both the CPU and the GPU (my computer didn't meet the minimum
> specs) without any complaints at all from the OS. High CPU, but totally
> responsive. Worked just fine.
>
> And that's one tiny snowflake on the tip of the iceberg. There are so many
> Win apps that handle intensive processing tasks without a hitch. So it's
> not a matter of apps being unable to crunch data on PCs. There may be very
> compelling and knowledgeable reasons why it's been a problem here, maybe it
> is even a Windows hurdle, but still we must acknowledge what our eyes can
> see, that Windows is not lacking for serious apps of all types that can
> deliver serious performance.
>
> So I too would love to see the engine get some tweaks for Windows. And
> Windows is a great place for LiveCode, probably an underutilized market. It
> wouldn't hurt to bring more PC customers into the fold.
>
> Meanwhile, most LC scripts can be way more optimized than what they are.
> Standard scripting techniques are not good enough! I also use a budget PC
> and an aging Mac for my regular work, so I usually see any performance
> issues nearer to the beginning of a project, unless I'm caught out by using
> a sample data set that's too small.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Curry Kenworthy
>
> Custom Software Development
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>
>
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