[YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Roger Eller
Thankfully, hardware convergence is finally coming.  If the latest
generation Atom processors had been around when the iPad took the world by
storm, we would have seen something quite different.  I can now get a fully
functional Dell tablet that is lighter and thinner than an iPad, but it can
run LiveCode any other Windows application.  These Win tablets have GPS
and accelerometers, so why not support them?  Check out the latest Android
Lollipop LapTabLopLet (what else would you call it?):  The Dell Venue 10
7000
<http://www.dell.com/us/p/dell-venue-10-7040-tablet/pd?p=dell-venue-10-7040-tablet>
.


On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Mark Talluto <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> > On Aug 10, 2015, at 10:00 AM, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I wouldn't know.  Why?  Because I chose LiveCode (actually MetaCard)
> > because my code could be written only once, and it worked the same on
> Mac,
> > Win, and Irix at that time.  Sure there were always shell calls once in a
> > while, but overall, the original designers of the language put in some
> real
> > effort to make it that way, and I truly appreciate all the work that went
> > into making it so seamless.
>
> I appreciate your desire for a fully unified experience. Keep in mind,
> technology has changed a lot since MetaCard. And, features have improve and
> become more complex since MetaCard. It is one thing to write data to a file
> using a unified method for all platforms. It is another to address mobile
> specific features between each OS with varying levels of sophistication.
> Even Apple uses a different/modified OS between all its hardware line.
>
> Where equality breaks in LiveCode, it seems reasonable to me. It looks
> like this will only continue until the various OS and hardware manufactures
> get together and unify what is available on each system. Desktops will be
> the last ones to get GPS and accelerometer support. Not holding my breath
> on that.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Talluto
> canelasoftware.com
>
> CassiaDB: The easy to use, free local storage database made for LiveCode
> Developers: livecloud.io
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
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> subscription preferences:
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Monte Goulding
In reply to this post by Roger Eller
Unfortunately the platforms are relatively different in the way they do things so it's not easy to make things exactly the same unless you whittle things down to the lowest common denominator and that's not always helpful. As far as externals goes I'm keen to help there but there's two road blocks. Firstly it has been rare that people have asked/paid me to build android externals. That's how mergExt externals are born. Secondly the android externals sdk is so darn limited that I've had to give up on a couple of projects.

So there you go, give me clients and something solid to work with and I can shower you with Android externals ;-)

Cheers

Monte

Sent from my iPhone

> On 11 Aug 2015, at 12:26 am, Roger Eller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Although LC calls itself cross-platform, I despise the fact that commands
> in the dictionary, particularly for mobile, have quirks that make it a
> little different for Android than iOS.  If it wants to call itself
> cross-platform, a term that is in the dictionary should work exactly the
> same across all supported platforms.  I would also be more likely to invest
> more into externals if they didn't focus on a single preferred OS rather
> than looking at the market potential for LC devs to build x-plat apps.  LC
> tools should all be required to be x-plat - period. /just one opinion.
>
> ~Roger
>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Mike Kerner <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Back in The Days Of The Language Wars, it was important, but now, with so
>> many specialty languages for so many reasons, it becomes much less of an
>> issue.  The PL bigots have been upended by uncompiled web languages.
>>
>> Whether it's this or Xojo or something else, LC still has a lead for
>> building cross-platform apps.  Hopefully 8 will extend that lead and
>> exploit it, more, because, really, web portals aren't the same.
>>
>> --
>> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
>> On the second day, God created the oceans.
>> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>>   and did a little diving.
>> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Dr. Hawkins
In reply to this post by Roger Eller
On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I think the majority of you have iOS devices
> because it is what you LIKE, not because it represents what the majority or
> even half of the population HAVE.  Inexpensive Android devices are getting
> better and better specs all the time, and lots of people buy them.
>

Actually, the platform for which people actually *pay* to buy apps on
should be the focus . . .  and by this metric, everything I've ever seen
says android should be a mere afterthought.


--
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Roger Eller
If your sources are from a newsfeed on an apple device, I am not surprised
at what thoughts you are allowed to have.


On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Dr. Hawkins <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I think the majority of you have iOS devices
> > because it is what you LIKE, not because it represents what the majority
> or
> > even half of the population HAVE.  Inexpensive Android devices are
> getting
> > better and better specs all the time, and lots of people buy them.
> >
>
> Actually, the platform for which people actually *pay* to buy apps on
> should be the focus . . .  and by this metric, everything I've ever seen
> says android should be a mere afterthought.
>
>
> --
> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> (702) 508-8462
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Roger Eller
In reply to this post by Dr. Hawkins
Read this; it didn't come from Apple though.  $22B iOS -vs- $19B Android.
http://readwrite.com/2014/07/03/ios-developer-android-developer-earnings-gap


On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Dr. Hawkins <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I think the majority of you have iOS devices
> > because it is what you LIKE, not because it represents what the majority
> or
> > even half of the population HAVE.  Inexpensive Android devices are
> getting
> > better and better specs all the time, and lots of people buy them.
> >
>
> Actually, the platform for which people actually *pay* to buy apps on
> should be the focus . . .  and by this metric, everything I've ever seen
> says android should be a mere afterthought.
>
>
> --
> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> (702) 508-8462
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Dr. Hawkins
In reply to this post by Roger Eller
On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> If your sources are from a newsfeed on an apple device, I am not surprised
> at what thoughts you are allowed to have.
>

Huh???  I can't eve being to figure out where the is coming from.  Does
apple even have a newsfeed app???

I'm not a mac person, I'm a unix person.  Mac is simply the most convenient
unix box supplier at the moment (OK, living without spotlit would be hard,
which is why OS X got left on the first of the newer ones I bought).

I'm currently only tinkering with a game; my real product is a desktop
app.  And until I find a way to actually put advertising on it (the one
built into live code apparently wants a large installed base before they
will talk to you), the mobile game won't get noticeable time.

I have no obligations to iOS, android, mac, or google, nor the users of any
of these.  This is purely a commercial issue.

I even support a windows version of my application; I've never owned an
actual windows machine (OK, it's been stashed on a back partition a few
times), but their money spends as well as mac users.  For that matter, I'll
ship it as a linux if someone is willing to pay for it.


--
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Dr. Hawkins
In reply to this post by Roger Eller
On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 8:17 AM, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Read this; it didn't come from Apple though.  $22B iOS -vs- $19B Android.
>
> http://readwrite.com/2014/07/03/ios-developer-android-developer-earnings-gap
>

Yeah, articles like that.   The initial caption about how much easier it is
for a developer to make money on iOS, and then when it gets to revenue app,
gives a figure of 5x per month per app for iOS . . .


--
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Roger Eller
They're also showing that the market trends are in Androids favor as even
free (ad sponsored apps) will get downloaded millions of times on android
devices.  Sure, if your apps are filling a niche big enough that a few
thousand will buy it, you're in good shape.  But if an app is rather
average, a few million pennies are also good.  That $19B in Android revenue
could easily pass the $22B iOS if volume of devices sold continues this
trend.

So, volume of devices sold CAN reflect your profitability if you use ad
frameworks at least partially.  Some will pay for an ad-free upgrade.  So,
I don't discount the Android market as being a mere afterthought.  In fact,
I personally have only purchased apps for Android, or desktop.  Maybe there
was just 1 for iOS a couple years ago.


On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Dr. Hawkins <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 8:17 AM, Roger Eller <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Read this; it didn't come from Apple though.  $22B iOS -vs- $19B Android.
> >
> >
> http://readwrite.com/2014/07/03/ios-developer-android-developer-earnings-gap
> >
>
> Yeah, articles like that.   The initial caption about how much easier it is
> for a developer to make money on iOS, and then when it gets to revenue app,
> gives a figure of 5x per month per app for iOS . . .
>
>
> --
> Dr. Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
> (702) 508-8462
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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>
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Roger Eller
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
Thank you for that info, Richard.  Intents is definitely a step in the
right direction.

~Roger


On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> I would agree that the whole process does seem rather Apple-centric at
> times, but did you see the Release Notes for 7.1dp1?  The LC engine now
> supports Android intents -- see the new mobileLaunchData function.
>
> This is also a good example of how different OS APIs can make a LiveCode
> feature complicated when the team attempts to make it the same on all
> platforms:  iOS doesn't have intents, using Actions instead.  Android
> intents are relatively simple to code for and work very similarly to url
> schemes, so it's been pretty straightforward for the team to add that.
> They do indeed intend to also action Actions support for iOS, but like so
> many Cocoa things it's not nearly as simple, and given the full range of
> priorities on their plate won't be in v7.1.
>
> Complete feature parity sounds simple, but once you dive into the
> implementation details it's clear that OSes just don't often work the same,
> requiring tough decisions about what gets delivered now and what gets
> delivered later.
>
> But at least those of us deploying to the 80% using Android finally have a
> feature that isn't all about Apple.  And a very useful one at that.
>
> And in the meantime, anyone in a position to add Actions support to the
> engine sooner than the core team can is welcome to submit the pull request.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
>  ____________________________________________________________
>  [hidden email]        http://www.FourthWorld.com
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Roger Eller
Platform wars are best left for OS vendor marketing staff.  Consumers
don't care because they buy whatever fits their personal needs and
desires.  Developers don't care because most of the ones making any
serious money are deploying to both.

To put it into perspective, half of all iOS revenues go to only the top
100 developers, and the majority of those apps are available on both
platforms.  The top 1,000 developers consumer most of the app store
revenue, with the other million+ dividing the rest for an income that
ranges from below minimum wage to zero.  Depending on which reports you
read, somewhere between 15% and 30% of apps in the iOS app store have
never been downloaded at all.  In brief, hardly worth bickering about.

Yes, there's money to be made in mobile, but it's not like having an
identical app store entry out of more than a million is all it takes.
Like all software products ever, it takes a good business plan well
executed in product design and the robustness of its architecture, and
clarity in communicating its benefits in an equally-well-executed
marketing plan.

Sure, some devs make single-platform-only apps.  But it's not a
majority, and getting smaller every year.

 From the most recent Vision Mobile survey on developer economics:
26% - Android AND iOS
28% - Android only
12% - iOS only

It may seem crazy to see more than twice as many developers deploying to
Android exclusively as to iOS.  After all, we all know that iOS
customers are a smaller but more desirable demographic in terms of
spending patterns; indeed they freely give Apple the highest profit
margins in the industry, and they spend as freely on apps as well.

But think about it:  with the current installed bases being roughly
80/20, iOS customers need to spend not merely more than an Android
customer, but more than four times as much more before they become more
profitable.

And in the meantime, the scope of monetization options is much larger on
mobile than those of us used to a desktop economy might be inclined to
consider.

Several years ago Rovio noted that they were making the same money
giving Angry Birds away for free on Android as they were collecting
per-download fees on iOS.   Advertising is not a small thing, and the
disparity in audience size has only grown since then.

And then there's freemium options with in-app purchases, separate
non-free versions without advertising that the ad-supported versions
promote, and more.

And best of all, all of that is supported on both platforms with
LiveCode, so we don't need to leave half the money on the table by
picking sides.  Leave that to OS marketers, and just do what most
profitable devs do: enjoy your cross-platform toolkit and make everyone
very happy by being able to recommend your app to all their friends,
regardless which OS they use.


And when we step back to look at the bigger picture, for those of us
using LiveCode prospects get even better:  not only can we build for
both mobile platforms, but also Mac, Windows, and even Linux, for a
scope of coverage no mobile-only developer can hope to reach.

We keep hearing about the so-called "post-PC era", but even today, many
years after that phrase has been bandied about, we still see roughly
half of all Internet usage coming from laptops and workstations.
Apparently the hundreds of authors who keep writing articles about how
no one uses their PCs any more didn't notice they were writing those
words on their PCs. :)

A mobile app can be useful.  A mobile app that integrates with a desktop
app multiplies its usefulness.

I could go on about The Third Platform as a more profitable strategy
than mobile-only, but like too many of my posts this one has already
gotten too long.

So let me close with this tip:  read the Vision Mobile surveys, and if
you can spare 5 minutes each quarter sign up to participate in them as
well.  If nothing else it's one more opportunity to write "LiveCode"
into the "Other" box, but more importantly these surveys are some of the
largest and use some of the better methodologies we see in our field.

Here's the most recent Developer Economics report from Vision Mobile:
<http://www.visionmobile.com/product/developer-economics-q1-2015-state-developer-nation/#>

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Monte Goulding

> On 13 Aug 2015, at 5:08 am, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> To put it into perspective, half of all iOS revenues go to only the top 100 developers, and the majority of those apps are available on both platforms.  The top 1,000 developers consumer most of the app store revenue, with the other million+ dividing the rest for an income that ranges from below minimum wage to zero.  Depending on which reports you read, somewhere between 15% and 30% of apps in the iOS app store have never been downloaded at all.  In brief, hardly worth bickering about.

I think there’s more to this issue than just the app store revenue. I’d be interested to see the stats but my gut feeling is Apple devices are far more commonly deployed by businesses for in house apps. When I got on a plane the other day every seat had an iPad mini etc… lots of stories like that we could all tell...
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Roger Eller
On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Monte Goulding <[hidden email]
> wrote:

>
> > On 13 Aug 2015, at 5:08 am, Richard Gaskin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > To put it into perspective, half of all iOS revenues go to only the top
> 100 developers, and the majority of those apps are available on both
> platforms.  The top 1,000 developers consumer most of the app store
> revenue, with the other million+ dividing the rest for an income that
> ranges from below minimum wage to zero.  Depending on which reports you
> read, somewhere between 15% and 30% of apps in the iOS app store have never
> been downloaded at all.  In brief, hardly worth bickering about.
>
> I think there’s more to this issue than just the app store revenue. I’d be
> interested to see the stats but my gut feeling is Apple devices are far
> more commonly deployed by businesses for in house apps. When I got on a
> plane the other day every seat had an iPad mini etc… lots of stories like
> that we could all tell...
>
>
I have seen this, but it isn't because iOS devices are necessarily better
for businesses, but it's more of a perception of security and control.
Apple does a great job of marketing this.  My experience with Android has
never involved malware infections, and any that have shown up in the media
have been blown way out of proportion.  Bad security practices of the user
are usually at fault on any mobile or desktop platform.
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Re: [YO EDINBURGH!] Microsoft Open-Sources It's Toolkit For Making iOS Apps Run On Win 10

Mark Waddingham-2
> I have seen this, but it isn't because iOS devices are necessarily
> better
> for businesses, but it's more of a perception of security and control.
> Apple does a great job of marketing this.  My experience with Android
> has
> never involved malware infections, and any that have shown up in the
> media
> have been blown way out of proportion.  Bad security practices of the
> user
> are usually at fault on any mobile or desktop platform.

I think the media always blows security issues out of proportion - but
then it does that with anything, so its perhaps not saying much :)

It is probably only partly perception of security and control that means
many large organizations do tend to go Apple rather than Android. There
are other reasons I'm sure. The build quality for Apple devices is
consistently very high for example (it should be as they are very
expensive relatively speaking). That's a real concern if you are rolling
100's devices out in an organization - after all you don't want to have
to be continually replacing individuals devices due to them not being
robust enough for the job. I suspect there is also an element of 'oh
look we use Apple devices' - after all Apple have (whether or not it is
justified) gained a considerable reputation for producing high quality,
well engineered premium devices - so there is probably a fair amount of
'how the company looks to the outside world' in the decisions which are
made when choosing what hardware to adopt.

However, that being said, it is a fact that iOS is significantly more
locked down than Android. e.g. It is much easier to connect an Android
device to a computer and prod around inside it just by enabling a single
setting on the device itself. With iOS devices this isn't quite so easy
- although possible. All access mechanisms used for development (which
by their nature require slightly more general access than end-user use)
are completely private in the iOS world - any tools which are not
Xcode/iTunes which give any access to iOS devices exist because various
private frameworks and protocols have been reversed engineered (a
practice which puts any company in a very grey area legally if they then
attempt to use such things).

Android has also long had the problem that individual vendors are
allowed to customize Android significantly as long as they agree to
conform to certain 'compatibility requirements'. This means that the
roll out of critical security updates has long been quite poor (as far
as I understand it). There are several layers typically between updates
to the core platform and the device vendors who must then integrate,
update and deploy the updates to their users. This means that security
updates can be very slow to come to many Android devices, with many
not-that-old ones being left vulnerable in the water.

Of course, the latter looks like it is set to change significantly. A
couple of the most recent somewhat heinous attacks and flaws against
Android seem to have prompted a all the major Android vendors committing
to monthly security updates - leading on from Google's announcement.
This might well start to change the iOS-secure vs Android-insecure meme
which has been around for a long time.

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ [hidden email] ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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