mark cards by finding -- a problem

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mark cards by finding -- a problem

Timothy Miller-2
Hi, my name is Tim. I am a hair-ripper. I haven't ripped for, uh,
three minutes.

I'm stuck on this one. It's probably an obvious mistake but I've
checked, triple checked, etc.

find patientName in field "patient name" works fine. It finds the one
record I expect it to find

if I comment out that line and replace it with --

mark cards by finding patientName in bg field "patient name"

-- no cards get marked.

Oops. I just made it work. Feel free to jump to end of message.

The in between part of the message might be a dull cautionary tale for newbies.

It's possible this is a bug. If it's already well-known, or fixed in
2.6, well, I feel stupid. I suppose there's an easy way to look up
well-known bugs in various versions. Anybody want to tell me how?

I got as far as http://support.runrev.com/bugzilla/#searching and
then "1. Click the "query existing bug reports and enhancement
requests" link." Where the heck is the link?



FWIW, here's the middle part:  *****************************

I've checked the syntax. It looks okay. variable patientName contains
what it is supposed to contain. It has to, or the plain "find"
command wouldn't have worked.

I've copied and pasted the variable name and the field name from the
line that works to the line that doesn't work, just to make sure
there were no misspellings or anything. No help.

I tried adding

go to card 1 of bg "record", so the script wouldn't try examining
field "patient name" on card where it didn't exist. No help.

On a lark, I tried

mark cards where patientName = value(bg field "patient name")

On another lark, I tried mark cards by finding value(patientName) in
bg field "patient name"

On a third lark I tried

mark cards by finding "Jones, Bob" in bg field "patient name"

None of the larks helped.

I went back and tried

find patientName in field "patient name" again.

It works fine, just like before.


************************ End of middle part

Here's how I got it to work:

mark cards by finding string patientName in bg field "patient name"

  -- does work!

This seems like a good example of the woeful state of the documentation.

The documentation doesn't say that I can write "by finding string
patientName". It doesn't say that it's a good idea to write the "mark
cards by finding" command that way.

I looked at the documentation again. It seems like "find normal"
would have worked anyway. In fact, "find normal" does work for these
fields and variables. Further investigation shows that "find string"
and "find whole" also work.

variable patientname and bg field "patient name" are exact matches in
this case.

Hmmm... I tried --

mark cards by finding whole patientName in bg field "patient name"

-- This doesn't work. It should, as far as I can tell.

I dunno, maybe it's a bug. But every time I think I've found a bug,
it turns out I'm doing something wrong.

Comments welcome


Thank you for your kind concern.


Tim


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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

Eric Chatonet
Hi Timothy,

Obviously you are coming from HyperCard...
With Rev there are no "bg" fields (neither card fields) but only fields.
Check the topics section in the docs named "Groups and Backgrounds"
It might help you to understand how Rev handles "bgs"... which do not  
exist with Rev ;-)
That's the reason why your script does not work.

Le 7 juil. 05 à 22:06, Timothy Miller a écrit :

> Hi, my name is Tim. I am a hair-ripper. I haven't ripped for, uh,  
> three minutes.
>
> I'm stuck on this one. It's probably an obvious mistake but I've  
> checked, triple checked, etc.
>
> find patientName in field "patient name" works fine. It finds the  
> one record I expect it to find
>
> if I comment out that line and replace it with --
>
> mark cards by finding patientName in bg field "patient name"
>
> -- no cards get marked.
>
> Oops. I just made it work. Feel free to jump to end of message.
>
> The in between part of the message might be a dull cautionary tale  
> for newbies.
>
> It's possible this is a bug. If it's already well-known, or fixed  
> in 2.6, well, I feel stupid. I suppose there's an easy way to look  
> up well-known bugs in various versions. Anybody want to tell me how?
>
> I got as far as http://support.runrev.com/bugzilla/#searching and  
> then "1. Click the "query existing bug reports and enhancement  
> requests" link." Where the heck is the link?
>
>
>
> FWIW, here's the middle part:  *****************************
>
> I've checked the syntax. It looks okay. variable patientName  
> contains what it is supposed to contain. It has to, or the plain  
> "find" command wouldn't have worked.
>
> I've copied and pasted the variable name and the field name from  
> the line that works to the line that doesn't work, just to make  
> sure there were no misspellings or anything. No help.
>
> I tried adding
>
> go to card 1 of bg "record", so the script wouldn't try examining  
> field "patient name" on card where it didn't exist. No help.
>
> On a lark, I tried
>
> mark cards where patientName = value(bg field "patient name")
>
> On another lark, I tried mark cards by finding value(patientName)  
> in bg field "patient name"
>
> On a third lark I tried
>
> mark cards by finding "Jones, Bob" in bg field "patient name"
>
> None of the larks helped.
>
> I went back and tried
>
> find patientName in field "patient name" again.
>
> It works fine, just like before.
>
>
> ************************ End of middle part
>
> Here's how I got it to work:
>
> mark cards by finding string patientName in bg field "patient name"
>
>  -- does work!
>
> This seems like a good example of the woeful state of the  
> documentation.
>
> The documentation doesn't say that I can write "by finding string  
> patientName". It doesn't say that it's a good idea to write the  
> "mark cards by finding" command that way.
>
> I looked at the documentation again. It seems like "find normal"  
> would have worked anyway. In fact, "find normal" does work for  
> these fields and variables. Further investigation shows that "find  
> string" and "find whole" also work.
>
> variable patientname and bg field "patient name" are exact matches  
> in this case.
>
> Hmmm... I tried --
>
> mark cards by finding whole patientName in bg field "patient name"
>
> -- This doesn't work. It should, as far as I can tell.
>
> I dunno, maybe it's a bug. But every time I think I've found a bug,  
> it turns out I'm doing something wrong.
>
> Comments welcome
>
>
> Thank you for your kind concern.
>
>
> Tim

Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

J. Landman Gay
On 7/7/05 3:16 PM, Eric Chatonet wrote:

> Hi Timothy,
>
> Obviously you are coming from HyperCard...
> With Rev there are no "bg" fields (neither card fields) but only fields.
> Check the topics section in the docs named "Groups and Backgrounds"
> It might help you to understand how Rev handles "bgs"... which do not  
> exist with Rev ;-)

Sometimes that is true, but Tim's stacks are HyperCard ports and they
have the HCAddressing set to true. That means it acts like HC and there
are background fields and card fields, as well as bg buttons and card
buttons. All HC imports act this way unless you change it.

One reason the "find" command may not be working is if the script is
refering to a bg group that isn't placed on the current card.

Tim: the best thing to do is check "the result" after using the find
command and see what it says. The cause of the error should be in there.
I've used "mark cards by finding" a lot without any problem, so there is
something else going on.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

Timothy Miller-2
In reply to this post by Eric Chatonet
>Hi Timothy,
>
>Obviously you are coming from HyperCard...
>With Rev there are no "bg" fields (neither card fields) but only fields.
>Check the topics section in the docs named "Groups and Backgrounds"
>It might help you to understand how Rev handles "bgs"... which do
>not exist with Rev ;-)
>That's the reason why your script does not work.
>

Hi Eric,

Actually, I tried it with and without "bg". It failed in both cases.

Other scripts work with and without "bg" before "field", as long as
the field belongs to a group.

find patientname in field "patient name"

and

find patientName in bg field "patient name"

both work equally well.

Just to make sure, I just tested that.

mark cards by finding string tempPtName in bg field "patient name" also works.

I admit it might be good practice to leave the "bg" out. I suppose
Rev ignores it.

Sorry to be contrary :-)


Any other thoughts?


Cheers,


Tim
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

Eric Chatonet
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
Hi Jacque,

I did not think of that :-(
As for me, I never ported any stack from HC to Rev (and I wrote  
hundreds): I used too many externals.
I take the opportunity to tell to all "newcomers" how they would  
benefit from all powerful Rev features by trying to re-write their  
stacks with Rev instead of porting them :-)

Le 7 juil. 05 à 22:31, J. Landman Gay a écrit :

> On 7/7/05 3:16 PM, Eric Chatonet wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Timothy,
>> Obviously you are coming from HyperCard...
>> With Rev there are no "bg" fields (neither card fields) but only  
>> fields.
>> Check the topics section in the docs named "Groups and Backgrounds"
>> It might help you to understand how Rev handles "bgs"... which do  
>> not  exist with Rev ;-)
>>
>
> Sometimes that is true, but Tim's stacks are HyperCard ports and  
> they have the HCAddressing set to true. That means it acts like HC  
> and there are background fields and card fields, as well as bg  
> buttons and card buttons. All HC imports act this way unless you  
> change it.
>
> One reason the "find" command may not be working is if the script  
> is refering to a bg group that isn't placed on the current card.
>
> Tim: the best thing to do is check "the result" after using the  
> find command and see what it says. The cause of the error should be  
> in there. I've used "mark cards by finding" a lot without any  
> problem, so there is something else going on.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay

Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

Timothy Miller-2
In reply to this post by J. Landman Gay
>On 7/7/05 3:16 PM, Eric Chatonet wrote:
>
>>Hi Timothy,
>>
>>Obviously you are coming from HyperCard...
>>With Rev there are no "bg" fields (neither card fields) but only fields.
>>Check the topics section in the docs named "Groups and Backgrounds"
>>It might help you to understand how Rev handles "bgs"... which do
>>not  exist with Rev ;-)
>
>Sometimes that is true, but Tim's stacks are HyperCard ports and
>they have the HCAddressing set to true. That means it acts like HC
>and there are background fields and card fields, as well as bg
>buttons and card buttons. All HC imports act this way unless you
>change it.


Hi Jacque,

Wow! Now I know about turning on hyperCard addressing! Ya learn
something new every day. You're right of course. hyperCard addressing
is turned on.

>
>One reason the "find" command may not be working is if the script is
>refering to a bg group that isn't placed on the current card.


I thought of that. I tried adding an extra line --

go to card 1 of bg "<whatever>"

-- so I could be sure that the script would find field "patient
information" on the first try. That didn't help either.


>
>Tim: the best thing to do is check "the result" after using the find
>command and see what it says.


Good thought. I did think of that, too. I'm getting better at this <g>.

The result was empty in every case.

It's starting to sound more like a bug. Or maybe my copy of Rev is
corrupted. I don't know how often that happens.

Best regards,



Tim

>The cause of the error should be in there. I've used "mark cards by
>finding" a lot without any problem, so there is something else going
>on.
>
>--
>Jacqueline Landman Gay         |     [hidden email]
>HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>_______________________________________________
>use-revolution mailing list
>[hidden email]
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>subscription preferences:
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

J. Landman Gay
On 7/7/05 4:03 PM, Timothy Miller wrote:

 > The result was empty in every case.

Hm. So it is. I guess "mark" doesn't fill the result like "find" does.

 >
 > It's starting to sound more like a bug. Or maybe my copy of Rev is
 > corrupted. I don't know how often that happens.

Virtually never. I don't think it is a bug either, as it works fine here
(with or without the "bg" designation.) It has to be something else. If
you can, try it on some other stack with no other scripts if you have
such a beast around, like an address book stack or something.

Or do it from the message box like this:

lock messages;mark cds by finding "name literal" in fld "patientname"

That will avoid interaction with any existing scripts, so see if that works.

--
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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

Timothy Miller-2
Jacque replies:

>
>  > It's starting to sound more like a bug. Or maybe my copy of Rev is
>>  corrupted. I don't know how often that happens.
>
>Virtually never. I don't think it is a bug either, as it works fine
>here (with or without the "bg" designation.) It has to be something
>else. If you can, try it on some other stack with no other scripts
>if you have such a beast around, like an address book stack or
>something.
>
>Or do it from the message box like this:
>
>lock messages;mark cds by finding "name literal" in fld "patientname"
>
>That will avoid interaction with any existing scripts, so see if that works.


Excellent idea, Jacque. You do know your business!

Different stack:

>Unmark all cards
>lock messages
>mark cards by finding "Jones, Bob" in bg field  "daily7"
>answer the number of marked cards

Three marked cards.

Same stack:

>put "Jones, Bob" into theVar
>unmark all cards
>lock messages
>mark cards by finding theVar in bg field  "daily7"
>answer the number of marked cards

Three marked cards, again.

I'm pretty sure three is the correct number of hits.

I don't know what to think. I've described the laborious
troubleshooting I did on the other script. I'm out of ideas.

In the other script, the problem script, --

mark cards by finding string patientName in field "patient name"

-- works just fine. "Find string" is a better way to do it anyway,
because it excludes some extraneous characters that might appear in
that field. I'm inclined to leave well enough alone, unless someone
has some good troubleshooting ideas. If I'm making a mistake, I'd
like to learn from it. It might not happen this time.

It's hard to imagine why

find <whatever> in <some container>

would work, but --

mark cards by finding <theSameThing> in <theSameContainer>

-- wouldn't work.

It's even harder to imagine why the "mark cards by finding..."
command would work right in one script, or stack, but not another.

It seems possible it's just one of those obscure quirks hidden in the
dark recesses of every complex application.

Best regards,


Tim
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

J. Landman Gay
On 7/7/05 5:34 PM, Timothy Miller wrote:

 > It's hard to imagine why
 >
 > find <whatever> in <some container>
 >
 > would work, but --
 >
 > mark cards by finding <theSameThing> in <theSameContainer>
 >
 > -- wouldn't work.
 >
 > It's even harder to imagine why the "mark cards by finding..." command
 > would work right in one script, or stack, but not another.

It could be some text anomaly. I'd suspect an invisible leading
character in front of the patient name in the field or something like
that. "Find" only finds the beginnings of words, "find string" finds the
string anywhere. So if "find string" works, then there must be a
non-matching character at the front of one of the words.

I know this doesn't make sense if "find" works okay without marking, but
it is something to check anyway.

--
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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

Timothy Miller-2
Jacque replies:

>On 7/7/05 5:34 PM, Timothy Miller wrote:
>
>>  It's hard to imagine why
>>
>>  find <whatever> in <some container>
>>
>>  would work, but --
>>
>>  mark cards by finding <theSameThing> in <theSameContainer>
>>
>>  -- wouldn't work.
>>
>>  It's even harder to imagine why the "mark cards by finding..." command
>>  would work right in one script, or stack, but not another.
>
>It could be some text anomaly. I'd suspect an invisible leading
>character in front of the patient name in the field or something
>like that. "Find" only finds the beginnings of words, "find string"
>finds the string anywhere. So if "find string" works, then there
>must be a non-matching character at the front of one of the words.
>
>I know this doesn't make sense if "find" works okay without marking,
>but it is something to check anyway.
>

That's a good thought. I did check for leading and trailing spaces,
and extra internal spaces. That wasn't the problem. Invisible
characters might have been an issue.

However, I just checked out the possibility of invisible characters.
Variable patientName originates in another field, in another stack. I
went back to the original field, used the msg box to put empty into
it, and then carefully retyped the name that becomes variable
patientName.

No change. "mark cards by finding..." still doesn't work. "mark cards
by finding string..." still does.

I just checked out the possibility that somehow the script inserted
an invisible character into the variable. The number of characters in
the variable patientName is as it should be.

Would some invisible characters not get counted in --

answer the number of chars in patientName   ?


Keep on smiling,



Tim
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

Timothy Miller-2
In reply to this post by Timothy Miller-2
I previously wrote, in reply to Jacque:

At 6:31 PM -0700 7/7/05, Timothy Miller wrote:
>I just checked out the possibility that somehow the script inserted
>an invisible character into the variable. The number of characters
>in the variable patientName is as it should be.
>
>Would some invisible characters not get counted in --
>
>answer the number of chars in patientName   ?


I forgot to mention, I tried adding set lockmessages to true in the
line before the problem "mark cards by finding..." line.

That didn't make the command behave properly either.

It's possible the thread will die here. I won't ask again, but if
anyone else has any ideas, or troubleshooting suggestions, I'll keep
an eye on this list.


Tim
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

Marty Knapp
Re: mark cards by finding

I came in late on this, so this may have already been suggested--

Have you checked the properties for the field(s) you're searching in to
make sure that the "Find command ignores" option is deselected?


--
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<http://www.BumperSnickerz.com>
<http://www.WestshoreCraftworks.com>
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Re: mark cards by finding -- a problem

J. Landman Gay
In reply to this post by Timothy Miller-2
On 7/7/05 8:34 PM, Timothy Miller wrote:

>> I just checked out the possibility that somehow the script inserted an
>> invisible character into the variable. The number of characters in the
>> variable patientName is as it should be.

Hm. So the text is okay. You could try setting a breakpoint in the
handler and walking through it in the debugger to make sure the command
is actually executing. That's about all I can think of. (Although if
you've already tried the command from the message box, you already know
it executed.) If it works in other stacks but not in this one, then
there has to be something different about this stack.

--
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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: mark cards by finding -- new insights

Timothy Miller-2
>On 7/7/05 8:34 PM, Timothy Miller wrote:
>
>>>I just checked out the possibility that somehow the script
>>>inserted an invisible character into the variable. The number of
>>>characters in the variable patientName is as it should be.
>
>Hm. So the text is okay. You could try setting a breakpoint in the
>handler and walking through it in the debugger to make sure the
>command is actually executing. That's about all I can think of.
>(Although if you've already tried the command from the message box,
>you already know it executed.) If it works in other stacks but not
>in this one, then there has to be something different about this
>stack.
>


Hi Jacque, and Marty,

Thank you for your continuing interest in this relatively small "issue."

(Issue is a Klingon word that means "problem." The Klingon term is
widely employed in Silicon Valley.)

I have investigated further. Your comments are good ones of course,
though I must admit I had considered those items already.

I actually discovered something interesting. I previously wrote:

*********************

Different stack:

>Unmark all cards
>lock messages
>mark cards by finding "Jones, Bob" in bg field  "daily7"
>answer the number of marked cards

Three marked cards.

Same stack:

>put "Jones, Bob" into theVar
>unmark all cards
>lock messages
>mark cards by finding theVar in bg field  "daily7"
>answer the number of marked cards

Three marked cards, again.

I'm pretty sure three is the correct number of hits.

******************


The next step was to try the same thing in the problematic stack. I
tried that last night. Here's how it went. In the multi-line message
box, I entered:


>put "Jones, Bob" into theVar
>unmark all cards
>lock messages
>mark cards by finding theVar in field "patient name"
>answer the number of marked cards

The correct number of hits would be 1. The number of marked cards
came back as 0. I tried it repeatedly, and it failed repeatedly.
Recall that this same script, in the message box, worked fine in a
different stack.

When I tried

>put "Jones, Bob" into theVar
>unmark all cards
>lock messages
>mark cards by finding string theVar in field "patient name"
>answer the number of marked cards

The number of marked cards was correct -- 1 card.

The following script, also typed into the msg box, also worked fine:

>put "Jones, Bob" into theVar
>unmark all cards
>lock messages
>find theVar in field "patient name"


Following the deductive chain, I concluded that the original script
was not the problem, nor was the spelling of the contents of the
variable, nor the contents of the field.

Just to be sure, I went back to the problem script, got the charToNum
of each character in the variable and compared it with the charToNum
of each character in the field. They were identical.

It seemed like the problem must either be a bug, or some property of
the problem stack, the group (with "behave like a background" turned
on), or the field.

The problem stack didn't seem to have any unusual properties. Neither
did the group or the field. "Ignore find command" was not checked in
any of these objects.

I don't understand all the basic field properties, but I messed
around with turning "focusable" "lock text" and "auto hilite text" on
or off. I was doing it somewhat haphazardly, not expecting much to
happen. At some point, 'mark cards by finding thevar in..." started
working. I knew I hadn't changed the script, because it remained
typed in the msg box, unchanged.

I saved and closed the stack, re-opened it. 'mark cards by finding
theVar in...' stopped working again. This time, messing around with
the field properties didn't get it working again. I tried all the
combinations of "on" and "off" I had tried before. I didn't change
the field properties before or after saving, closing and re-opening
the stack.

This morning, I tried again. Once again, 'mark cards by finding
theVar...' didn't work. Zero hits. This time, I remembered the field
had a script in it. One "on closefield" handler and one "on mouseUp"
handler. I didn't think these would make a difference because
messages were locked. Nevertheless, I temporarily commented these
out. 'Mark cards by finding thevar...' started working correctly.

However, when I un-commented the handlers, the 'mark cards by
finding...' script continued to work. I saved and closed the stack,
re-opened it, and the command continued to work. This time, I hadn't
changed any field properties.

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that this is an intermittent bug
that is influenced by some combination of field properties and/or
field scripts and/or the placement of the field in a group, and/or
group properties, and/or turning on "behave like a background" in the
group properties. It might be specific to OS X, and it might be
influenced by the HCaddressing property, which is turned on in my
case. I'm not thrilled by the prospect of trying to isolate the
problem any further. The number of possibilities is too large. I
think I won't.

Gosh, that even bored me! I'm not sure this is of any interest to
anyone. Maybe somehow, somewhere, it might be mildly useful to
someone. Hope so.

If it happened to me, it will probably happen to others, at least
occasionally. I'm not going to submit it to bugzilla, because novices
shouldn't do that. Someone more qualified might want to submit it on
my behalf, if he/she is convinced that it's been investigated
adequately.

'Mark cards by finding string theVar...' seems to work consistently
and it suits my needs, so I'll stick with that.



Cheers,


Tim
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Re: mark cards by finding -- new insights

Eric Chatonet
Hi Timothy,

Le 8 juil. 05 à 23:11, Timothy Miller a écrit :

> I'm not thrilled by the prospect of trying to isolate the problem

But it's the only way to solve the issue.
I can't tell you how many times I have created a *new* stack with  
*new* objects and the portion of code which made problems in another  
stack.
I can't tell you how many times I have found by this way that the  
problem was elsewhere :-)

Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.
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Re: mark cards by finding -- new insights

Timothy Miller-2
>Hi Timothy,
>
>Le 8 juil. 05 à 23:11, Timothy Miller a écrit :
>
>>I'm not thrilled by the prospect of trying to isolate the problem
>
>But it's the only way to solve the issue.
>I can't tell you how many times I have created a
>*new* stack with *new* objects and the portion
>of code which made problems in another stack.
>I can't tell you how many times I have found by
>this way that the problem was elsewhere :-)
>
>Best Regards from Paris,
>
>Eric Chatonet.


I am sympathetic, Eric. If it's me and not Rev, I
want to know it. If it's a Rev bug, I'm now a Rev
loyalist, so I want Rev to know it, and if they
don't have the resources to isolate it, I'm
willing to help, up to a point.

It would help if I could get the damned debugger
to work. Could you toss me a clue? It sure
doesn't act like the hyperCard debugger.

It works fine on, for example, a simple mouseUp
script in a simple button. However, if the button
sends a message to a handler in a stack script
(for instance), which then sends another message
to another handler, nested or not, the debugger
won't follow along. "Script debug mode" is
definitely turned on. Step Into, etc., are absent
and/or dimmed out, typically. Sometimes, I can
see the script window open, several windows back,
but I can't get to it until the script is done
executing. I've tried setting multiple
breakpoints in each handler, tried setting
breakpoints by script. The script rolls right
past them.

The instructions say, "The breakpoint command has
no effect unless the stack is running in the
Revolution development environment." I'm using
DreamCard. Does DreamCard count as the
"revolution development environment?"

Once again, I tried to read the instructions but
they did not tell me what I need to know. I
consulted Dan's book, too. Most of it seems
intended for a less experienced user. Yet I am
more or less a novice myself.

If I must continually discover how Rev works by
trial and error, because of inadequate
documentation, 10,000 silent Rev users are
silently giving up. Rev doesn't need that. For
heaven's sake! It's advertised as a product that
is easy for people like me to use. It isn't. It's
hard.

It would be easy for me to use IF the
documentation would give me a concise explanation
of some item when I needed concise, and a
detailed explanation when I needed detailed,
abundant examples when I needed them, and so on.
I hope that comes along pretty soon.


Best regards from California's Big Central Valley,


Tim
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Re: mark cards by finding -- new insights

Eric Chatonet
Hi Tim,

First, DreamCard or Revolution: some features are different but it's  
the same IDE.
As for the debugger, it's right that it needs to be debugged :-(
I think that Runrev guys are working on it because you are right: a  
fabulous language without a reliable debugger is no worth.
Above all for beginners.

Le 9 juil. 05 à 00:05, Timothy Miller a écrit :

> It works fine on, for example, a simple mouseUp script in a simple  
> button. However, if the button sends a message to a handler in a  
> stack script (for instance), which then sends another message to  
> another handler, nested or not, the debugger won't follow along.  
> "Script debug mode" is definitely turned on. Step Into, etc., are  
> absent and/or dimmed out, typically. Sometimes, I can see the  
> script window open, several windows back, but I can't get to it  
> until the script is done executing. I've tried setting multiple  
> breakpoints in each handler, tried setting breakpoints by script.  
> The script rolls right past them.
>
> The instructions say, "The breakpoint command has no effect unless  
> the stack is running in the Revolution development environment."  
> I'm using DreamCard. Does DreamCard count as the "revolution  
> development environment?"

Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.
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Re: mark cards by finding -- new insights

Timothy Miller-2
Eric wrote:

>
>
>First, DreamCard or Revolution: some features are different but it's
>the same IDE.
>As for the debugger, it's right that it needs to be debugged :-(
>I think that Runrev guys are working on it because you are right: a
>fabulous language without a reliable debugger is no worth.
>Above all for beginners.


I didn't know that the debugger is an ongoing "issue". I didn't mean
to complain. I thought I was doing something wrong. Of course, that's
still a possibility.

Does the debugger work much better in version 2.6?

I've heard that alternate debuggers are available. If something works
well, out of the box, I should probably try it. If they're all
pre-beta versions, I guess I'd be better off waiting for Rev to fix
their own debugger. What do you suggest?

Not to be negativistic, but it's starting to seem like Rev is a
not-quite-ready-for-prime-time product. If it's true, I can live with
that. I can even remain a Rev loyalist. God knows I was a hyperCard
loyalist until the bitter end. (For that matter, I remained an Atari
loyalist, until the bitter end!)

It just sort of comes as a surprise. At some point, everybody on the
hyperCard list seemed to agree that it was time to switch to Rev. I
just went along with the crowd.

In any case, thanks a bunch,


Tim
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Re: mark cards by finding -- new insights

Alex Tweedly
In reply to this post by Timothy Miller-2
Timothy Miller wrote:

>
> I am sympathetic, Eric. If it's me and not Rev, I want to know it. If
> it's a Rev bug, I'm now a Rev loyalist, so I want Rev to know it, and
> if they don't have the resources to isolate it, I'm willing to help,
> up to a point.
>
> It would help if I could get the damned debugger to work. Could you
> toss me a clue? It sure doesn't act like the hyperCard debugger.
>
I've never used the hyperCard debugger (or in fact hyperCard) - so I'll
refrain from comparisons :-)

> It works fine on, for example, a simple mouseUp script in a simple
> button. However, if the button sends a message to a handler in a stack
> script (for instance), which then sends another message to another
> handler, nested or not, the debugger won't follow along. "Script debug
> mode" is definitely turned on. Step Into, etc., are absent and/or
> dimmed out, typically. Sometimes, I can see the script window open,
> several windows back, but I can't get to it until the script is done
> executing. I've tried setting multiple breakpoints in each handler,
> tried setting breakpoints by script. The script rolls right past them.

The debugger has some issues - but for me at least it basically does
what I need it to do, more or less, most of the time. In 2.6, they (Rev)
added basic (inadequate) support for array, which was the biggest thing
completely missing - so I'm relatively happy with the debugger.

In my experience, it will stop at breakpoints, and will generally then
"step over" or "step into" adequately. Note that it will "step into" if
you call a function or a handler - but it will NOT do so if you "send
message".

So if I'm in my mouseUp handler, stopped at the first of the following lines

> put 3 into i
> myHandler i, "try this"
> put 4 into i

then wither a "step over" or  "step into" will move me to the next line.
Then another "step into" will move me to, and stop at, the first line of
myHandler.
Alternatively a "step over" would stop me at the next line (put 4 ....")

However, if the code was instead

> put 3 into i
> myHandler i, "try this"
> put 4 into i

then the code would do pretty much the same thing (not quite, order
would be different) but the debugger behaviour would be very different
because it would never pause within myHandler.

The other thing to watch our for is that stepping *out* of a function or
handler also, I think, requires you to use the "step into" button.  
It's (IMO) a very misleading label on the button - it really means step
to the next statement even in a different handler context - either
entering or leaving.  (Hmmm - I can see why they didn't call it that :-)

Anyway - I use "step into" all the time, except when I deliberately wish
to step over a function or handler.

One more thing to watch for - closing the debugger/script window is
equivalent to clicking "Run" !!
Since you no longer have the debugger control window open, what can it
do but try to continue. Makes some sense - but caught me out often until
I got used to it. Makes me really, really wish that this window had a
"minimize" control - but I get used to just shuffling windows of to the
edges of the screen while I try to see what's happened.

> The instructions say, "The breakpoint command has no effect unless the
> stack is running in the Revolution development environment." I'm using
> DreamCard. Does DreamCard count as the "revolution development
> environment?"
>
Yes.


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Re: mark cards by finding -- new insights

Alex Tweedly
Oops !!! cut/paste typo .... should have said

Alex Tweedly wrote:

>
> However, if the code was instead
>
>> put 3 into i
>>   send "myHandler i"
>> put 4 into i
>
Sorry.

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