maximizing the stack/card

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maximizing the stack/card

Jon-3
On windows, when I try to maximize the window, it stops short of the top
of the screen, as if it was trying to keep some space open for either
the windows task bar or the Mac's menus.  Is there any way to get it to
occupy the whole screen, reliably?

Thanks!

Jon
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Eric Chatonet
Jon,
set the windowBoundingRect to the screenRect

Le 13 juil. 05 à 15:38, Jon a écrit :

> On windows, when I try to maximize the window, it stops short of  
> the top of the screen, as if it was trying to keep some space open  
> for either the windows task bar or the Mac's menus.  Is there any  
> way to get it to occupy the whole screen, reliably?

Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

FlexibleLearning
In reply to this post by Jon-3
set the rect of this stack to the  screenRect

But you may wish to adjust this to accommodate the window's  titlebar.

/H


---
On windows, when I try to maximize the  window, it stops short of the top
of the screen, as if it was trying to keep  some space open for either
the windows task bar or the Mac's menus.  Is  there any way to get it to
occupy the whole screen,  reliably?

Thanks!

Jon
---  

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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Jon-3
In reply to this post by Eric Chatonet
Thank you for telling me how to do it programatically.  My point was
that, IMHO, normal behavior for an application running in Windows would
be for this to happen automatically when the user clicks on the Maximize
icon.  I'm not even sure I know how to tell if the user has tried to
maximize the window or not.

:)

Jon

Eric Chatonet wrote:

> Jon,
> set the windowBoundingRect to the screenRect
>
> Le 13 juil. 05 à 15:38, Jon a écrit :
>
>> On windows, when I try to maximize the window, it stops short of  the
>> top of the screen, as if it was trying to keep some space open  for
>> either the windows task bar or the Mac's menus.  Is there any  way to
>> get it to occupy the whole screen, reliably?
>
>
> Best Regards from Paris,
>
> Eric Chatonet.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> So Smart Software
>
> For institutions, companies and associations
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Eric Chatonet
Jon,

By default, the windowBoundingRect varies according to the platform  
and the environment (IDE or stand alone):
It lets room for the task bar on Windows, the menubar on Mac OS and  
adds room for revMenubar + something for rev tools (??? ) when you  
are in the development environment.
Nevertheless, you can override this behaviour by setting it in a  
preOpenstack handler to suit your needs.

Le 13 juil. 05 à 16:44, Jon a écrit :

> Thank you for telling me how to do it programatically.  My point  
> was that, IMHO, normal behavior for an application running in  
> Windows would be for this to happen automatically when the user  
> clicks on the Maximize icon.  I'm not even sure I know how to tell  
> if the user has tried to maximize the window or not.


Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Jon-3
Eric,

Thanks.  On my windows system, the task bar is on the left, not on the
bottom; and it auto-hides, rather than always being visible.  So, the
correct behavior on my system would be for all applications to expand to
fill the screen.  On other computers, this might NOT be the correct
behavior.  Simply setting the windowsBoundingRect to the screenRect
would be correct on my computer, but might screw someone else up.

This defect seems to me to be a minor bug in Rev.  Do you agree?

:)

Jon


Eric Chatonet wrote:

> Jon,
>
> By default, the windowBoundingRect varies according to the platform  
> and the environment (IDE or stand alone):
> It lets room for the task bar on Windows, the menubar on Mac OS and  
> adds room for revMenubar + something for rev tools (??? ) when you  
> are in the development environment.
> Nevertheless, you can override this behaviour by setting it in a  
> preOpenstack handler to suit your needs.
>
> Le 13 juil. 05 à 16:44, Jon a écrit :
>
>> Thank you for telling me how to do it programatically.  My point  was
>> that, IMHO, normal behavior for an application running in  Windows
>> would be for this to happen automatically when the user  clicks on
>> the Maximize icon.  I'm not even sure I know how to tell  if the user
>> has tried to maximize the window or not.
>
>
>
> Best Regards from Paris,
>
> Eric Chatonet.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> So Smart Software
>
> For institutions, companies and associations
> Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc.
> Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch
>
> Free plugins and tutorials on my website
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Richard Gaskin
Jon wrote:

> Eric,
>
> Thanks.  On my windows system, the task bar is on the left, not on the
> bottom; and it auto-hides, rather than always being visible.  So, the
> correct behavior on my system would be for all applications to expand to
> fill the screen.  On other computers, this might NOT be the correct
> behavior.  Simply setting the windowsBoundingRect to the screenRect
> would be correct on my computer, but might screw someone else up.
>
> This defect seems to me to be a minor bug in Rev.  Do you agree?

It would be if the windowBoundingRect were fixed to one size for all
machines.  But it's not:  it's calculated dynamically when the app
starts, based on system calls which tells it the location and size of
these elements.

It does a reliable job of accounting for the OS X Dock in all positions
and sizes I've tested, and seems to do well with the Task Bar on Windows
in all sizes I've tested on.  I haven't tested with a placement on the
sides, but since it's using system calls for this I'd be surprised if it
didn't also do that one well; if not then yes, that would be a bug.

The engine initializes the windowBoundingRect to be the full size of the
main display less these trimmings.  The Rev IDE changes it to also
account for its toolbar, which your app can do also if it needs to
support a toolbar.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Managing Editor, revJournal
  _______________________________________________________
  Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Eric Chatonet
Hi Richard,

Thanks for this clarification.
I wrote off list to Jon telling him:

> Before speaking about a bug or even a dysfunction, all this should  
> need some tests to know if Rev adjusts the windowBoundingRect  
> according to the presence, the side, etc. of the task bar or just  
> keeps x pixels at the bottom of the screen on Windows, at the top  
> on Mac OS.
> No time to dig in now: I'll release a new amazing plug-in to  
> morrow ;-)

So, you did it yet.
Thank you :-)

Le 13 juil. 05 à 19:03, Richard Gaskin a écrit :

> Jon wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>> Thanks.  On my windows system, the task bar is on the left, not on  
>> the bottom; and it auto-hides, rather than always being visible.  
>> So, the correct behavior on my system would be for all  
>> applications to expand to fill the screen.  On other computers,  
>> this might NOT be the correct behavior.  Simply setting the  
>> windowsBoundingRect to the screenRect would be correct on my  
>> computer, but might screw someone else up.
>> This defect seems to me to be a minor bug in Rev.  Do you agree?
>>
>
> It would be if the windowBoundingRect were fixed to one size for  
> all machines.  But it's not:  it's calculated dynamically when the  
> app starts, based on system calls which tells it the location and  
> size of these elements.
>
> It does a reliable job of accounting for the OS X Dock in all  
> positions and sizes I've tested, and seems to do well with the Task  
> Bar on Windows in all sizes I've tested on.  I haven't tested with  
> a placement on the sides, but since it's using system calls for  
> this I'd be surprised if it didn't also do that one well; if not  
> then yes, that would be a bug.
>
> The engine initializes the windowBoundingRect to be the full size  
> of the main display less these trimmings.  The Rev IDE changes it  
> to also account for its toolbar, which your app can do also if it  
> needs to support a toolbar.


Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Jon-3
In reply to this post by Richard Gaskin
Richard:

"It does a reliable job of accounting for the OS X Dock in all positions
and sizes I've tested, and seems to do well with the Task Bar on Windows
in all sizes I've tested on.  I haven't tested with a placement on the
sides, but since it's using system calls for this I'd be surprised if it
didn't also do that one well; if not then yes, that would be a bug."

My point is that does NOT do a good job on my computer.  End of
statement. It reserves space for a task bar that is not visible (auto
hiding); and it does so along the wrong axis (vertical rather than
horizontal).

I think this is a bug.  I'll BZ it now.

Jon


Richard Gaskin wrote:

> Jon wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>>
>> Thanks.  On my windows system, the task bar is on the left, not on
>> the bottom; and it auto-hides, rather than always being visible.  So,
>> the correct behavior on my system would be for all applications to
>> expand to fill the screen.  On other computers, this might NOT be the
>> correct behavior.  Simply setting the windowsBoundingRect to the
>> screenRect would be correct on my computer, but might screw someone
>> else up.
>>
>> This defect seems to me to be a minor bug in Rev.  Do you agree?
>
>
> It would be if the windowBoundingRect were fixed to one size for all
> machines.  But it's not:  it's calculated dynamically when the app
> starts, based on system calls which tells it the location and size of
> these elements.
>
> It does a reliable job of accounting for the OS X Dock in all
> positions and sizes I've tested, and seems to do well with the Task
> Bar on Windows in all sizes I've tested on.  I haven't tested with a
> placement on the sides, but since it's using system calls for this I'd
> be surprised if it didn't also do that one well; if not then yes, that
> would be a bug.
>
> The engine initializes the windowBoundingRect to be the full size of
> the main display less these trimmings.  The Rev IDE changes it to also
> account for its toolbar, which your app can do also if it needs to
> support a toolbar.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Managing Editor, revJournal
>  _______________________________________________________
>  Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
> _______________________________________________
> use-revolution mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>
>
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Chipp Walters
In reply to this post by Jon-3
Jon,

You are too swift in calling something a bug. In fact, it's a feature, a
great feature. How else, for instance, would you figure out the 'top of
the taskbar' where you wanted to have a small message window pop out? Or
whether the taskbar is on the side, bottom or top?

The reason why it doesn't work as you wish, is that on startup, the Rev
IDE sets the windowBoundingRect explicitly to account for it's various
toolbars. I would suggest they consider storing the 'old' wbrect in a
property, so one could access it.

best,

Chipp

Jon wrote:

> This defect seems to me to be a minor bug in Rev.  Do you agree?
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Jon-3
In reply to this post by Eric Chatonet

>> The engine initializes the windowBoundingRect to be the full size  of
>> the main display less these trimmings.  The Rev IDE changes it  to
>> also account for its toolbar, which your app can do also if it  needs
>> to support a toolbar.
>

It is a bit amusing that Rev reduces the vertical size of a maximized
app so that the toolbar can be visible.  The toolbar is obscured almost
all of the time by the myriad of mis-managed windows when run under
Windows.  This token effort to keep things looking good is useless.
Until the messy way that all of the Rev windows are managed, under
Windows at least, any other ameliorative efforts are worthless.  If Rev
managed <alt><tab> behavior correctly (the way people switch between
applications under Windows) then the application could be correctly
maximized without a problem. At the moment, the fact that Rev
applications do not function as every other Windows application
functions can only be viewed as a bug by anyone who uses Windows software.

And of rant.

Jon
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Eric Chatonet
Jon,

I have the feeling that you made amazing progress with Rev since a  
few weeks.
Could you *also* tell us about all what Rev brought to you?
:-)

Le 13 juil. 05 à 19:28, Jon a écrit :

>>> The engine initializes the windowBoundingRect to be the full  
>>> size  of the main display less these trimmings.  The Rev IDE  
>>> changes it  to also account for its toolbar, which your app can  
>>> do also if it  needs to support a toolbar.
>>>
>>
>>
>
> It is a bit amusing that Rev reduces the vertical size of a  
> maximized app so that the toolbar can be visible.  The toolbar is  
> obscured almost all of the time by the myriad of mis-managed  
> windows when run under Windows.  This token effort to keep things  
> looking good is useless. Until the messy way that all of the Rev  
> windows are managed, under Windows at least, any other ameliorative  
> efforts are worthless.  If Rev managed <alt><tab> behavior  
> correctly (the way people switch between applications under  
> Windows) then the application could be correctly maximized without  
> a problem. At the moment, the fact that Rev applications do not  
> function as every other Windows application functions can only be  
> viewed as a bug by anyone who uses Windows software.

Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Jon-3
In reply to this post by Chipp Walters
When I maximize an app, the size is constrained (incorrectly), but the
position is not.  I can put it anywhere I want to.  This is no way to
"protect" either the Windows task bar or the Rev task bar (or whatever
they call it).  It would be useless in that regard.  It is useless in
that regard.

I continue to fail to see this as a feature of any kind.

That said, this seems to be develping into one of my Rants, so I think
I'll just shut up.

Jon


Chipp Walters wrote:

> Jon,
>
> You are too swift in calling something a bug. In fact, it's a feature,
> a great feature. How else, for instance, would you figure out the 'top
> of the taskbar' where you wanted to have a small message window pop
> out? Or whether the taskbar is on the side, bottom or top?
>
> The reason why it doesn't work as you wish, is that on startup, the
> Rev IDE sets the windowBoundingRect explicitly to account for it's
> various toolbars. I would suggest they consider storing the 'old'
> wbrect in a property, so one could access it.
>
> best,
>
> Chipp
>
> Jon wrote:
>
>> This defect seems to me to be a minor bug in Rev.  Do you agree?
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Jon-3
Jon wrote:

>
>>> The engine initializes the windowBoundingRect to be the full size  of
>>> the main display less these trimmings.  The Rev IDE changes it  to
>>> also account for its toolbar, which your app can do also if it  needs
>>> to support a toolbar.
>
> It is a bit amusing that Rev reduces the vertical size of a maximized
> app so that the toolbar can be visible.  The toolbar is obscured almost
> all of the time by the myriad of mis-managed windows when run under
> Windows.  This token effort to keep things looking good is useless.
> Until the messy way that all of the Rev windows are managed, under
> Windows at least, any other ameliorative efforts are worthless.  If Rev
> managed <alt><tab> behavior correctly (the way people switch between
> applications under Windows) then the application could be correctly
> maximized without a problem. At the moment, the fact that Rev
> applications do not function as every other Windows application
> functions can only be viewed as a bug by anyone who uses Windows software.

What should the desired behavior be?

I was unable to find a discussion about handling maximizing properly in
a quick glance at the Win HIG.  Your guidance on where I can find that
would be much appreciated.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Managing Editor, revJournal
  _______________________________________________________
  Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Alex Tweedly
Richard Gaskin wrote:

>
> What should the desired behavior be?
>
> I was unable to find a discussion about handling maximizing properly
> in a quick glance at the Win HIG.  Your guidance on where I can find
> that would be much appreciated.
>
No idea what, if anything, MS's HIG says - but I can tell you what every
(*) Windows program I've used in the last 10 years does - it maximizes
the window to cover everything except any non-auto-hide taskbar. So if
the task bar is set to auto-hide, then the window covers the entire
visible screen; if not auto-hide, it covers the complete rectangle which
doesn't overlap the task bar.

(*) every means literally every program I've used except Rev; I'm not
aware of

--
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Jon-3
I agree with what Alex has written.

The ONLY point I was trying to make is that programs created with Rev do
not behave as do all other Windows programs.  The deviation in behavior
is in some sense minor, but I see no reason why it has to deviate at
all.  And explaining to a user why my software does not work like other
Windows software just seems to be a waste of everyone's time.

I thought I said I would shut up.  Sigh.  I'll try to do it now!

:)

Jon


Alex Tweedly wrote:

> Richard Gaskin wrote:
>
>>
>> What should the desired behavior be?
>>
>> I was unable to find a discussion about handling maximizing properly
>> in a quick glance at the Win HIG.  Your guidance on where I can find
>> that would be much appreciated.
>>
> No idea what, if anything, MS's HIG says - but I can tell you what
> every (*) Windows program I've used in the last 10 years does - it
> maximizes the window to cover everything except any non-auto-hide
> taskbar. So if the task bar is set to auto-hide, then the window
> covers the entire visible screen; if not auto-hide, it covers the
> complete rectangle which doesn't overlap the task bar.
>
> (*) every means literally every program I've used except Rev; I'm not
> aware of
>
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Alex Tweedly
In reply to this post by Alex Tweedly
Alex Tweedly wrote:

> Richard Gaskin wrote:
>
>>
>> What should the desired behavior be?
>>
>> I was unable to find a discussion about handling maximizing properly
>> in a quick glance at the Win HIG.
>
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwue/html/ch07d.asp
or
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/winui/winui/windowsuserinterface/windowing/windows/windowfeatures.asp

Both of which say (paraphrased)
"by default a maximized window is full-screen, but the app can choose to
make its maximized size be smaller or even larger than that"
 and also
"full-screen [taken] to exclude the system or appropriate application
defined toolbars".

>> Your guidance on where I can find that would be much appreciated.
>>
> No idea what, if anything, MS's HIG says - but I can tell you what
> every (*) Windows program I've used in the last 10 years does - it
> maximizes the window to cover everything except any non-auto-hide
> taskbar. So if the task bar is set to auto-hide, then the window
> covers the entire visible screen; if not auto-hide, it covers the
> complete rectangle which doesn't overlap the task bar.
>
> (*) every means literally every program I've used except Rev; I'm not
> aware of
>
So given that the HIG says you can do anything you like, the current
behaviour is within the guidelines :-). But even if it's within these
very loose guidelines, it's still different from every other app I know,
even those which have toolbars, and therefore is confusing.

Jon said:

> And explaining to a user why my software does not work like other
> Windows software just seems to be a waste of everyone's time.

I don't think that'll be an issue Jon - when outside the IDE, it behaves
like I'd expect - maximize gives full-screen, and adjusts for the system
task-bar.


--
Alex Tweedly       http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Richard Gaskin
In reply to this post by Alex Tweedly
Alex Tweedly wrote:

> Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> What should the desired behavior be?
>>
>> I was unable to find a discussion about handling maximizing properly
>> in a quick glance at the Win HIG.  Your guidance on where I can find
>> that would be much appreciated.
>>
> No idea what, if anything, MS's HIG says - but I can tell you what every
> (*) Windows program I've used in the last 10 years does - it maximizes
> the window to cover everything except any non-auto-hide taskbar. So if
> the task bar is set to auto-hide, then the window covers the entire
> visible screen; if not auto-hide, it covers the complete rectangle which
> doesn't overlap the task bar.
>
> (*) every means literally every program I've used except Rev; I'm not
> aware of

The asterisk is important because it points to the essence of the issue.

Note that I'm not in disagreement on this.  On the contrary, I've gone
to the mat on this issue with RunRev, so my only point in asking for HIG
references is to assemble talking points for a stronger argument.

What we have here is a very uncommon UI, and accordingly subsequent
decisions based on it are equally uncommon:

While the Win HIG describes four radically different window models, it
offers nothing to suggest having a detached universal toolbar/menubar.
Of the models MS suggests the closest match is the Project model, but
even then the menus are attached to the top of each window, not in a
separate window floating by itself.

Most apps that have a single window for a universal toolbar do so in an
MDI, but since we don't have MDI parent window classes there's not much
we can do on that front.  And since MDI is being slowly retired anyway
I'm not sure we'd want to invest in that at this time.

With Rev, the toolbar is detached and, perhaps more significantly,
cannot be moved.  So if the windowBoundingRect were not adjusted to
account for it, it would be too easy to have a document window
positioned beneath it so that we can't reach the drag bar.

So whether we agree or disagree with the decision, adjusting the top of
the windowBoundingRect to compensate for the universal toolbar is at
least understandable (although it does crop the top far more pixels than
is needed as I had once noted in a Bugzilla report).

But then there's the left-side adjustment, presumably to make room for
the floating tool palette.  Because such windows are designed to be
moved in close to where the user is working there should be no need to
crop the windowBoundingRect for it. There would also be no harm and
arguably some benefit if the tool window also had a closeBox.

Although these three decisions have mystified me I've been given
assurances that they are conscious decisions; indeed my Bugzilla
requests for each of these have long been closed as "Not a bug".

But stepping back to look at the big picture, the only ones risking any
loss from these decisions are at RunRev, when folks try the product:
the engine's native settings for the windowBoundingRect work exactly as
you describe, so your own apps will not be affected by anything the IDE
does separately from the engine.

As long as the engine gives me the freedom to decide what's right for my
own apps, I'll leave it to RunRev to make their own decisions for their
own apps.  Given Rev's unusual role as an IDE that simultaneously
supports both runtime and development, I'm not sure I'd want to
completely remove the floating toolbar altogether, and would likely keep
the top cropping of the windowBoundingRect.

My BZ reports on the other details were more for them than for me, since
I spend most of my day in the MC IDE which doesn't touch the
windowBoundingRect (it doesn't touch much really, designed around the
mantra of "Know the engine, Love the engine, Trust the engine" <g>).

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Managing Editor, revJournal
  _______________________________________________________
  Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Chipp Walters
In reply to this post by Jon-3
Jon wrote:
> I agree with what Alex has written.
> The ONLY point I was trying to make is that programs created with Rev do
> not behave as do all other Windows programs.  

How so? In my experience (multiple shipping Rev applications), the
windowBoundingRect manages the window exactly as I would want it to in
my standalones. It's the Rev IDE which is the problem for you, of course
you didn't take the time to figure that out before blasting us with yet
another of your rants...

> I thought I said I would shut up.  Sigh.  I'll try to do it now!

Thank-you.

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Re: maximizing the stack/card

Jon-3
Chipp:

You're right.  I never considered that the program would behave
differently when run under the IDE than when run standalone.  Perhaps
this is because no other IDE alters the program behavior in this way.  
But, perhaps they do not need to do so.

Jon


Chipp Walters wrote:

> Jon wrote:
>
>> I agree with what Alex has written.
>> The ONLY point I was trying to make is that programs created with Rev
>> do not behave as do all other Windows programs.  
>
>
> How so? In my experience (multiple shipping Rev applications), the
> windowBoundingRect manages the window exactly as I would want it to in
> my standalones. It's the Rev IDE which is the problem for you, of
> course you didn't take the time to figure that out before blasting us
> with yet another of your rants...
>
>> I thought I said I would shut up.  Sigh.  I'll try to do it now!
>
>
> Thank-you.
>
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>
>
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