not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

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not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
Ralph wrote:
> This is possible because all current consumer OSs
> have the same problems outlined in the article.

Deep truth, but... Are you sure that hardware is not to blame
for many of these unexplained bugs?

Intermittent hardware failures, due to faulty soldering or
overheating (etc...) are uncommon but possible...

 Al
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
Hi Richard,

Richard Gaskin wrote:
> I've found logging useful.  Turn on the messageMessages
> and write all messageHandled messages to a file with the
> executionContexts - verbose, but when information is lacking
> better to have too much than too little.

Great to know! Thanks for this information.
Where could I find more details about messageHandled
and messageMessage? Google found nothing
about these LiveCode messages.

Al
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
Alejandro Tejada wrote:

 > Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >> I've found logging useful.  Turn on the messageMessages
 >> and write all messageHandled messages to a file with the
 >> executionContexts - verbose, but when information is lacking
 >> better to have too much than too little.
 >
 > Great to know! Thanks for this information.
 > Where could I find more details about messageHandled
 > and messageMessage? Google found nothing
 > about these LiveCode messages.

They're still undocumented, designed for IDE use and subject to change.

The messageMessages is a global property which governs whether
messageHandled and messageNotHandled messages are sent.  False by
default, setting it to true causes the engine to send those messages.

A messageHandled message is sent when any message is handled. Check its
params to see what comes with it - not much, but enough to trigger logging.

I've never used messageNotHandled, but presumably it's sent when a
message is fired and nothing in the message path handles it.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
Richard Gaskin wrote:
> They're still undocumented, designed for IDE use
> and subject to change.

Ok, that explains why Google could not find
any information about this.

Maybe this info could help developers that are having
trouble with their mobile apps. Could we save our log
files and sent them automatically to the app developer
in a mobile app? That could be really helpful.
Really helpful.

Al
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
Alejandro Tejada wrote:

 > Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >> They're still undocumented, designed for IDE use
 >> and subject to change.
 >
 > Ok, that explains why Google could not find
 > any information about this.
 >
 > Maybe this info could help developers that are having
 > trouble with their mobile apps. Could we save our log
 > files and sent them automatically to the app developer
 > in a mobile app? That could be really helpful.
 > Really helpful.

Logging in general can be useful.

Logging every handler that gets triggered throughout a session less so.

Big logs, performance impairment, only useful if the log gets to the
developer (and even then sifting through it can be a bear).

Lean usage logs can be good, though.

I tend to use messageMessages logging only when I have a problem I can't
diagnose through other means.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
Why do I have a feeling that once a system constructed by humans reaches
a certain level of complexity
those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain
circumstances.

We humans have, largely got ourself in trouble by starting to think we
can explain everything,
and I have a vision of a God laughing his/her socks off at our hubris.

One of the kids I was teaching programming in the Summer pointed at a
metal box connected to a monitor, a keyboard
and a mouse and asked, "What happens inside that?"

To which I replied, "Magic."

This answer was a bit too honest for the poor boy to cope with as he has
been brought up as a naive realist.

Richmond.

On 10/4/17 2:42 am, Alejandro Tejada via use-livecode wrote:

> Ralph wrote:
>> This is possible because all current consumer OSs
>> have the same problems outlined in the article.
> Deep truth, but... Are you sure that hardware is not to blame
> for many of these unexplained bugs?
>
> Intermittent hardware failures, due to faulty soldering or
> overheating (etc...) are uncommon but possible...
>
>   Al
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
> Richmond wrote:
>
> once a system constructed by humans reaches a certain level of complexity
> those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain circumstances.

And sometimes we’re unable to explain WHY a system behaved as it did, which is increasingly common with certain AI and cognitive computing systems.

Jim Lambert

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
To which I will add as a side note, once we know everything, there will be no more opinions or opposing views. :-)

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2017, at 09:12 , Jim Lambert via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Richmond wrote:
>>
>> once a system constructed by humans reaches a certain level of complexity
>> those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain circumstances.
>
> And sometimes we’re unable to explain WHY a system behaved as it did, which is increasingly common with certain AI and cognitive computing systems.
>
> Jim Lambert

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
Except people will always want what they want. As I understand it, that
drives disagreements far more than the absence/presence of knowledge.
(James 4:1 <https://www.bible.com/bible/111/JAS.4.1.niv>)

Sorry, I couldn't resist... I just HAD to respond to your
tongue-in-cheek comment...
Guess that makes me the poster child of what I just said. :-)

Phil Davis


On 10/4/17 10:10 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

> To which I will add as a side note, once we know everything, there will be no more opinions or opposing views. :-)
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Oct 4, 2017, at 09:12 , Jim Lambert via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Richmond wrote:
>>>
>>> once a system constructed by humans reaches a certain level of complexity
>>> those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain circumstances.
>> And sometimes we’re unable to explain WHY a system behaved as it did, which is increasingly common with certain AI and cognitive computing systems.
>>
>> Jim Lambert
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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--
Phil Davis

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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
Well, in that case I sincerely hope we never know everything.

Although, how, without our finite brains/minds we would manage that
escapes me entirely.

Richmond.

On 10/4/17 8:10 pm, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

> To which I will add as a side note, once we know everything, there will be no more opinions or opposing views. :-)
>
> Bob S
>
>
>> On Oct 4, 2017, at 09:12 , Jim Lambert via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Richmond wrote:
>>>
>>> once a system constructed by humans reaches a certain level of complexity
>>> those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain circumstances.
>> And sometimes we’re unable to explain WHY a system behaved as it did, which is increasingly common with certain AI and cognitive computing systems.
>>
>> Jim Lambert
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: not really OT: The Coming Software Apocalypse

Tom Glod via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Tom Glod via use-livecode
Knowledge is not the only thing one can hold opinions about: anything
subjective such as ethics or
aesthetics . . .

Richmond.

On 10/4/17 8:45 pm, Phil Davis via use-livecode wrote:

> Except people will always want what they want. As I understand it,
> that drives disagreements far more than the absence/presence of
> knowledge. (James 4:1 <https://www.bible.com/bible/111/JAS.4.1.niv>)
>
> Sorry, I couldn't resist... I just HAD to respond to your
> tongue-in-cheek comment...
> Guess that makes me the poster child of what I just said. :-)
>
> Phil Davis
>
>
> On 10/4/17 10:10 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
>> To which I will add as a side note, once we know everything, there
>> will be no more opinions or opposing views. :-)
>>
>> Bob S
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 4, 2017, at 09:12 , Jim Lambert via use-livecode
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Richmond wrote:
>>>>
>>>> once a system constructed by humans reaches a certain level of
>>>> complexity
>>>> those humans are unable to predict how it will behave in certain
>>>> circumstances.
>>> And sometimes we’re unable to explain WHY a system behaved as it
>>> did, which is increasingly common with certain AI and cognitive
>>> computing systems.
>>>
>>> Jim Lambert
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>

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