[off] Do me a solid

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[off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
https://www.fastcompany.com/90243936/exclusive-tim-berners-lee-tells-us-his-radical-new-plan-to-upend-the-world-wide-web
--
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Mike,
Very interesting. However, I suspect that anything is hackable, some more than others, but I will read more and would be interested in how the structure keeps user data private.
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Sep 29, 2018, at 9:38 AM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90243936/exclusive-tim-berners-lee-tells-us-his-radical-new-plan-to-upend-the-world-wide-web
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Reminds me of project Xanadu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 9:38 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90243936/exclusive-tim-berners-lee-tells-us-his-radical-new-plan-to-upend-the-world-wide-web
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>    and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Decentralizing control from any form of monopoly has always got to be good.

However, the monopolists have probably got the internet so firmly "by
the prawns" I wonder
if the man's plan will work.

Richmond.

On 29.09.2018 19:38, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote:
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90243936/exclusive-tim-berners-lee-tells-us-his-radical-new-plan-to-upend-the-world-wide-web


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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode

 Mike, thanks for the link to the Berners-Lee article. Could somebody
please explain to me what he is doing as described by the article
though?

 It says he is taking something decentralized like the world wide web
and is making it decentralized. I can do that. There I just did it.
Anyone can host a web server now. They talk about data and storage
control and we have all those things now. People choose to use Faceook,
not Diaspora, etc, they choose to use Google Drive not a local hard
drive, etc. We already have the technology and finished applications to
do everything mentioned in the article.

 I do not meant to sound critical or mean I just honestly do not
understand the point of the article and would like to know. Or am I just
overthinking it and the only point is Berners-Lee has a better way to
program these things?


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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
4 words....IPFS. :D

thats the future of a decentralized web :) IPFS is going to take off in the
next 2 years like a bat out of hell, as more and more decentralized
applications are developed on top of it and proven to work at scale.
TBLee's tech will have to at least match IPFS or be way behind from day 1.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 6:37 PM John McKenzie via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>  Mike, thanks for the link to the Berners-Lee article. Could somebody
> please explain to me what he is doing as described by the article
> though?
>
>  It says he is taking something decentralized like the world wide web
> and is making it decentralized. I can do that. There I just did it.
> Anyone can host a web server now. They talk about data and storage
> control and we have all those things now. People choose to use Faceook,
> not Diaspora, etc, they choose to use Google Drive not a local hard
> drive, etc. We already have the technology and finished applications to
> do everything mentioned in the article.
>
>  I do not meant to sound critical or mean I just honestly do not
> understand the point of the article and would like to know. Or am I just
> overthinking it and the only point is Berners-Lee has a better way to
> program these things?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
still.... they are depending on AWS?  Amazon is "the man" now...
--
Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org


On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 3:57 PM Tom Glod via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> 4 words....IPFS. :D
>
> thats the future of a decentralized web :) IPFS is going to take off in the
> next 2 years like a bat out of hell, as more and more decentralized
> applications are developed on top of it and proven to work at scale.
> TBLee's tech will have to at least match IPFS or be way behind from day 1.
>
> On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 6:37 PM John McKenzie via use-livecode <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> >  Mike, thanks for the link to the Berners-Lee article. Could somebody
> > please explain to me what he is doing as described by the article
> > though?
> >
> >  It says he is taking something decentralized like the world wide web
> > and is making it decentralized. I can do that. There I just did it.
> > Anyone can host a web server now. They talk about data and storage
> > control and we have all those things now. People choose to use Faceook,
> > not Diaspora, etc, they choose to use Google Drive not a local hard
> > drive, etc. We already have the technology and finished applications to
> > do everything mentioned in the article.
> >
> >  I do not meant to sound critical or mean I just honestly do not
> > understand the point of the article and would like to know. Or am I just
> > overthinking it and the only point is Berners-Lee has a better way to
> > program these things?
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
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> >
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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode

 Tom, thanks. Was not aware of IPFS. Looks interesting. When I have
more time I must read about it in detail.

 Have not checked on Xanadu in a while. Little faith it will be further
along than last time I checked considering it was started before I was
born and how old I am. I do applaud it though and it was very
pioneering.

 This IPFS is very intriguing. Very.

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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
<cough>

Is this the same Tim Berners-Lee who, in his capacity as Director of the
World Wide Web Consortium, a year ago overruled all objections and added
standardized DRM to the open web standards? Sided with trillions of
dollars worth of corporate muscle against accessibility groups, security
experts, browser startups, public interest groups, human rights groups,
archivists, research institutions, etc?

Pass.

--
  Mark Wieder
  [hidden email]

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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode

 Mark, I am glad I am not the only one who remembers Lee selling us
out. I do not put more validity or faith into the project because of
him. I just mentioned him because he was doing it. Still, mostly I want
to understand it. What really is it? The article just says it is to
create something we have.

 I for one say you are right to mention the DRM thing. We cannot forget.

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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On 09/29/2018 05:14 PM, John McKenzie via use-livecode wrote:
>
>   Mark, I am glad I am not the only one who remembers Lee selling us
> out. I do not put more validity or faith into the project because of
> him. I just mentioned him because he was doing it. Still, mostly I want
> to understand it. What really is it? The article just says it is to
> create something we have.

Dunno yet. The article and the others just like it have a bunch of
startup pr hype and not much else. The Solid platform is up and the api
should be online Real Soon Now.

>
>   I for one say you are right to mention the DRM thing. We cannot forget.

To put it in some perspective, DRM itself isn't the problem, it's more
the nuances involved, especially as pertains to section 1201 of the
DMCA. Well, yes, DRM does remove all the user's rights in copyright,
letting corporations decide what your legal rights are. But legit things
people want to do with web technology are off limits, even talking about
defects in DRM that expose users to privacy breaches.

Case in point: some years ago I bought a DVD, stuck it in the DVD player
connected to the aux input of my TV, and found that I couldn't view it
because the TV had integrated anti-piracy software. The TV was a combo
TV and VCR, so obviously I was going to copy the DVD to videocassette
(remember this was some years ago) and the system was helpfully going to
stop me. The only way I could view the DVD was to rip it to a digital
file and watch it on the computer. Forced into piracy even though I had
purchased all the equipment and content. (OK - according the modern
EULAs I don't actually own anything, but that's a different subject. But
related.)

from Cory Doctorow's report from last year:

EFF proposed a simple compromise: extend the W3C's existing membership
agreement (whose patent rules make DRM possible in the first place) so
that W3C members couldn't sue people for bypassing DRM unless there was
also some kind of copyright violation or other illegal act in the mix.

The DRM advocates at W3C rejected this. After a perfunctory discussion,
they walked away from the negotiations and proceeded to ignore anyone at
W3C or on the web who disliked the idea of corporations getting to boss
around librarians, accessibility workers, security researchers and
innovators.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/amid-unprecedented-controversy-w3c-greenlights-drm-web

--
  Mark Wieder
  [hidden email]

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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On 09/29/2018 03:37 PM, John McKenzie via use-livecode wrote:

> control and we have all those things now. People choose to use Faceook,

...but probably only in the library the Unseen University. Heh.

--
  Mark Wieder
  [hidden email]

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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
I wonder who has the monopoly on what color wires go where in bomb making? ;-)

Bob S


> On Sep 29, 2018, at 12:00 , Richmond via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Decentralizing control from any form of monopoly has always got to be good.
>
> However, the monopolists have probably got the internet so firmly "by the prawns" I wonder
> if the man's plan will work.
>
> Richmond.


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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Yeah, seems like the rebels just become the new dictator, like in that old Twilight Zone episode.

Bob S


> On Sep 29, 2018, at 16:20 , Stephen Barncard via use-livecode <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> still.... they are depending on AWS?  Amazon is "the man" now...
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -


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RE: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
As the philosopher Pete Townshend once said:

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: use-livecode [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2018 10:44 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Bob Sneidar
Subject: Re: [off] Do me a solid

Yeah, seems like the rebels just become the new dictator, like in that old
Twilight Zone episode.

Bob S


> On Sep 29, 2018, at 16:20 , Stephen Barncard via use-livecode
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> still.... they are depending on AWS?  Amazon is "the man" now...
> --
> Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -


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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
In reply to this post by Knapp Martin via use-livecode
On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 10:11 AM Mark Wieder via use-livecode
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> <cough>
>
> Is this the same Tim Berners-Lee who, in his capacity as Director of the
> World Wide Web Consortium, a year ago overruled all objections and added
> standardized DRM to the open web standards? Sided with trillions of
> dollars worth of corporate muscle against accessibility groups, security
> experts, browser startups, public interest groups, human rights groups,
> archivists, research institutions, etc?
>
> Pass.
Unfortunately I think the Free Software Foundation backed the wrong
horse.  Whilst it's mission to promote computer user freedom is
commendable, doing it via OSS in a world where the Internet is driven
by trillions of dollars, web search engines are driven by billions of
dollars and both of these are influenced by media giants and
governments with political agendas almost make the fact that you have
OSS on your device irrelevant.   I think individual freedom, let alone
computer user freedom, would better be served if, like linux, there
were a couple of versions of the WWW, some of which were truly Open
Source.  Although I use DuckDuckGo in deference to Google, I think
we'd all be better off with a few viable OS Web Search Engines - the
current ones are too small.

I think in the future we'll look back and realise that having a purely
open Search Engine and purely open Internet will be far more important
to us than whether the code of the app we are using, to take advantage
of what is available across the internet, is open or closed.

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Re: [off] Do me a solid

Knapp Martin via use-livecode
Friends,

I have been silent for a while but I am now getting more active here again.
I've recently moved to London so if people want to go to a Pub or organize
an LC meetup, I am game.

Now back to business, I am an active member of the decentralized web
movement and more visible through my efforts on the Secure Scuttlebutt[1]
community and the Mozilla experiment called Libdweb[2].

I was at the Decentralized Web Summit this year where Tim Berners-Lee was
present promoting Solid. You can see all recorded sessions from the
event[3] or jump straight to his video about solid[4].

BELOW YOU WILL READ SOME STRONG PERSONAL OPINIONS:

In my humble opinion the dweb and dapp movement can be categorized into two
large camps and most solutions/communities tend to fall under one or
another, even though some span both camps. One camp is the "solution with
economic incentives" and in this category we place all the cryptocurrency
backed stuff, all those little blockchains with tokens, ICOs, DAGs,
cryptolattice structure marvels that no-one uses but everyone hopes to get
rich with. This is where the money is and most of the stuff is vaporware
made to promote ICOs, foster speculation and make someone (who is usually
not you) rich. Still, there is good stuff in here, bitcoin is pretty nice
as a "currency", dogecoin is fun to play with but no one will get rich,
ethereum has a nice momentum.

The other much less visible camp, which is the one I am mostly interested
in, is the "solution without economic incentive" where people are building
stuff that not necessarily relies on blockchains or tokens or any form of
currency. It is usually peer-to-peer stuff that, by design, prevents
censorship, tracking and in some cases makes really hard to monetize
anything. In this camp you'll find Secure Scuttlebutt, IPFS, Dat, Beaker
Browser (which is DAT).

Some solutions span both camps such as the offerings by protocol labs,
where IPFS, libp2p, etc fall into the second camp but their filecoin fall
into the first one, and that is OK. Or holochain which provides a platform
for you to build your on decentralized stuff even with coins and tokens.

During one of the online conferences we had for LiveCode Global this year,
I presented a TOY version of a Scuttlebutt-like protocol that allowed
people to build decentralized desktop apps with LiveCode. If the HQ accept,
they could share this video with all the community, it gives a nice little
toy intro to the concepts.

Anyway, there is a ton of stuff happening in this space, solid is not the
only game in town.

Best
Andre

[1]: https://scuttlebutt.nz
[2]: https://github.com/mozilla/libdweb
[3]: https://decentralizedweb.net/videos/
[4]:
https://decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-solid-empowering-people-through-choice/

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:24 AM Kay C Lan via use-livecode <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 10:11 AM Mark Wieder via use-livecode
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > <cough>
> >
> > Is this the same Tim Berners-Lee who, in his capacity as Director of the
> > World Wide Web Consortium, a year ago overruled all objections and added
> > standardized DRM to the open web standards? Sided with trillions of
> > dollars worth of corporate muscle against accessibility groups, security
> > experts, browser startups, public interest groups, human rights groups,
> > archivists, research institutions, etc?
> >
> > Pass.
> Unfortunately I think the Free Software Foundation backed the wrong
> horse.  Whilst it's mission to promote computer user freedom is
> commendable, doing it via OSS in a world where the Internet is driven
> by trillions of dollars, web search engines are driven by billions of
> dollars and both of these are influenced by media giants and
> governments with political agendas almost make the fact that you have
> OSS on your device irrelevant.   I think individual freedom, let alone
> computer user freedom, would better be served if, like linux, there
> were a couple of versions of the WWW, some of which were truly Open
> Source.  Although I use DuckDuckGo in deference to Google, I think
> we'd all be better off with a few viable OS Web Search Engines - the
> current ones are too small.
>
> I think in the future we'll look back and realise that having a purely
> open Search Engine and purely open Internet will be far more important
> to us than whether the code of the app we are using, to take advantage
> of what is available across the internet, is open or closed.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


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