"Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

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"Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Mike Kerner
In case anybody else is thinking about it, we paid for one of the programs,
almost as soon as we saw it was available.

It's two days later.  I just had a 45-minute conversation with Kevin and
with Neil, during which they listened and took notes on no fewer than 30
items I wanted to discuss with them.  If you're a corporate or pro who
wants to have a chance to say something directly, I can't think of a better
way.

--
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Rick Harrison
Hi there,

What ever happened to the $20 per month pay as you go commercial license?

I have to give a talk about LiveCode to a bunch of developers this
coming week, and that was an attractive license for them to get started.
Is that gone now?  

Thanks,

Rick


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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Heather Laine
We replaced it with the free, open source edition.

Great to hear you're giving a talk, we'd love to hear how that goes! Please do feel free to email [hidden email] if there is some way we can assist either with materials or license options.

Regards,

Heather

On 28 Oct 2013, at 17:11, Rick Harrison wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> What ever happened to the $20 per month pay as you go commercial license?
>
> I have to give a talk about LiveCode to a bunch of developers this
> coming week, and that was an attractive license for them to get started.
> Is that gone now?  
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
http://www.livecode.com/









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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Rick Harrison
Hi Heather,

Thanks for the confirmation.  At least now I know what to say about it.

Thanks again,

Rick

On Oct 28, 2013, at 1:38 PM, Heather Laine <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We replaced it with the free, open source edition.
>
> Great to hear you're giving a talk, we'd love to hear how that goes! Please do feel free to email [hidden email] if there is some way we can assist either with materials or license options.
>
> Regards,
>
> Heather


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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Richmond Mathewson-2
In reply to this post by Heather Laine
On 10/28/2013 07:38 PM, Heather Laine wrote:
> We replaced it with the free, open source edition.

A free, open source edition is NOT in any way whatsoever the same or the
equivalent of a $20 a month
commercial licence, and it is slightly disingenuous to suggest they
might in some way be equivalent.

One offers the ability to produce close source work which other people
will find hard to steal, while the other produces open source work that
is up for grabs for anybody who wants it.

Why not say this sort of thing?

The $20 a month wasn't bringing in the sort of moolah we need, so what
we did was dump it, and you can either go for the open source solution
(with the concommitent risks involved if you decide to try to make money
out of your open source offerings) or stump up a rather larger sum for
the, undoubted, benefits you will get from the commercial version.

Also, RunRev may have got wind of sneaky characters like myself, who
would work on a bit of software as long as they liked on the community
version until it were "just right" and then pay ONLY $20 for a month's
go with the commercial version to pump out a code-protected standalone.

Now, if that is the case, I cannot but agree with RunRev; they were
leaving themselves wide open to abuse.

>
> Great to hear you're giving a talk, we'd love to hear how that goes! Please do feel free to email [hidden email] if there is some way we can assist either with materials or license options.
>
> Regards,
>
> Heather
>
> On 28 Oct 2013, at 17:11, Rick Harrison wrote:
>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> What ever happened to the $20 per month pay as you go commercial license?
>>
>> I have to give a talk about LiveCode to a bunch of developers this
>> coming week, and that was an attractive license for them to get started.
>> Is that gone now?

Hey, want to hear a very old story about the chap who gave with one hand
while taking away with the other?

Or, put another way: you cannot keep all the people happy all the time.

>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> Heather Laine
> Customer Services Manager
> http://www.livecode.com/
>
>
>
>

Richmond.

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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

xtalkprogrammer
Hi Richmond,

I kind of agree that Heather seems to suggest that the $20 license and
the open source license are similar, but she doesn't actually say so.
She only says that product A was replaced with product B.

I do think, though, that RunRev needs to bring back the option of
licensing single platforms or another way to acquire a low-budget
license, such as PayG. RunRev seems to think that only companies need
licenses, but hobby developers have a need for (single-platform)
licenses too and they don't have a big budget.

I have an ongoing survey at http://qery.us/40u and the results very
clearly show that a vast majority of RunRev users who are willing to
invest a little money consists of hobby programmers and not companies:
44% of the respondents are hobby programmers and only 14% use LiveCode
as the main tool to make a living; 20% are software developer but don't
use LC (as the main tool or at all), 11% didn't indicate whether they
use LC and the remaining 11% are teachers and students.

RunRev is at risk of losing customers because hobby programmers want to
be able to release a commercial app once in a while and there are less
expensive alternative options for this.

--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
KvK: 50277553

Use Color Converter to convert CMYK, RGB, RAL, XYZ, H.Lab and other
colour spaces. http://www.color-converter.com

Buy my new book "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner"
http://qery.us/3fi

Fill out this survey please
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com/survey/

On 10/28/2013 20:09, Richmond wrote:

> On 10/28/2013 07:38 PM, Heather Laine wrote:
>> We replaced it with the free, open source edition.
>
> A free, open source edition is NOT in any way whatsoever the same or the
> equivalent of a $20 a month
> commercial licence, and it is slightly disingenuous to suggest they
> might in some way be equivalent.
>
> One offers the ability to produce close source work which other people
> will find hard to steal, while the other produces open source work that
> is up for grabs for anybody who wants it.
>
> Why not say this sort of thing?
>
> The $20 a month wasn't bringing in the sort of moolah we need, so what
> we did was dump it, and you can either go for the open source solution
> (with the concommitent risks involved if you decide to try to make money
> out of your open source offerings) or stump up a rather larger sum for
> the, undoubted, benefits you will get from the commercial version.
>
> Also, RunRev may have got wind of sneaky characters like myself, who
> would work on a bit of software as long as they liked on the community
> version until it were "just right" and then pay ONLY $20 for a month's
> go with the commercial version to pump out a code-protected standalone.
>
> Now, if that is the case, I cannot but agree with RunRev; they were
> leaving themselves wide open to abuse.
>
>>
>> Great to hear you're giving a talk, we'd love to hear how that goes!
>> Please do feel free to email [hidden email] if there is some way
>> we can assist either with materials or license options.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Heather
>>
>> On 28 Oct 2013, at 17:11, Rick Harrison wrote:
>>
>>> Hi there,
>>>
>>> What ever happened to the $20 per month pay as you go commercial
>>> license?
>>>
>>> I have to give a talk about LiveCode to a bunch of developers this
>>> coming week, and that was an attractive license for them to get started.
>>> Is that gone now?
>
> Hey, want to hear a very old story about the chap who gave with one hand
> while taking away with the other?
>
> Or, put another way: you cannot keep all the people happy all the time.
>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> Heather Laine
>> Customer Services Manager
>> http://www.livecode.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Richmond.
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>

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Economy-x-Talk Consultancy and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
Facebook: http://facebook.com/LiveCode.Beginner
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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Richmond Mathewson-2
On 10/28/2013 10:00 PM, Mark Schonewille wrote:

> Hi Richmond,
>
> I kind of agree that Heather seems to suggest that the $20 license and
> the open source license are similar, but she doesn't actually say so.
> She only says that product A was replaced with product B.
>
> I do think, though, that RunRev needs to bring back the option of
> licensing single platforms or another way to acquire a low-budget
> license, such as PayG. RunRev seems to think that only companies need
> licenses, but hobby developers have a need for (single-platform)
> licenses too and they don't have a big budget.

This has been a continuing problem with RunRev. They have repeatedly
failed to see that a single platform
licence or a pay-as-you go system will bring them revenue. I fought with
them and we ended up with revMedia which went from a cheapo to a free to
a quickly evaporated status.

Whole the Open Source version of Livecode is marvellous (and I was one
of the first to plonk my pennies on the table for that one) it has not
plugged the gap where educators on small-scale budgets hang out, nor
people like a friend of my Dad who is working on a bit of software for
pensioners to learning English Church bell ringing routines which he
intends to sell for small sums which he will then contribute to a bell
fund at his local church.

Now I have all sorts of small-scale plans up my sleeve which may or may
not bring me in some money; but I am not about to stick my neck out for
a whacking great sum on the off-chance that something will 'take' in a
serious way.

I am sure I am not alone in this respect.

While right now I am releasing a version of my Devawriter Pro that is
fully functional it does sport a Thorsten Lemke style time related block
screen at start up to try to persuade the odd chap here and there to lob
me the odd spondulic; with the open source version nobody would do that
as all they would have to do is crack open the code and do a bit of
twiddling.

I currently continue to develop with LC 4.5 as my "revenue stream" is a
trickle at best. No were I able to, say, 'rent' an up-to-date version of
LC for a week at a decent rate (say $100) I ight risk that; then, if the
product were to suddenly leap from Zero-to-Hero with any features I
introduced from a new version of LC (in may case none spring immediately
to  mind right now) I might reinvest my returns on some sort of more
long-term or permanent licence.

Until RunRev can produce a version that stops Windows Vista and later
from playing font substitution games
with Unicode fonts they won't get a penny more from me I'm afraid to
say. This is the feature that will "grab Richmond by the tail and hold
on fast."

>
> I have an ongoing survey at http://qery.us/40u and the results very
> clearly show that a vast majority of RunRev users who are willing to
> invest a little money consists of hobby programmers and not companies:
> 44% of the respondents are hobby programmers and only 14% use LiveCode
> as the main tool to make a living; 20% are software developer but
> don't use LC (as the main tool or at all), 11% didn't indicate whether
> they use LC and the remaining 11% are teachers and students.
>
> RunRev is at risk of losing customers because hobby programmers want
> to be able to release a commercial app once in a while and there are
> less expensive alternative options for this.

I don't think RunRev have ever got that far away from the MetaCard model
(the thing cost buckets), and
I am sure its price, apart from anything else, is what finally finished
commercial MetaCard off.

>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Mark Schonewille
>
> Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
> Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
> KvK: 50277553
>
> Use Color Converter to convert CMYK, RGB, RAL, XYZ, H.Lab and other
> colour spaces. http://www.color-converter.com
>
> Buy my new book "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner"
> http://qery.us/3fi
>
> Fill out this survey please
> http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com/survey/
>
> On 10/28/2013 20:09, Richmond wrote:
>> On 10/28/2013 07:38 PM, Heather Laine wrote:
>>> We replaced it with the free, open source edition.
>>
>> A free, open source edition is NOT in any way whatsoever the same or the
>> equivalent of a $20 a month
>> commercial licence, and it is slightly disingenuous to suggest they
>> might in some way be equivalent.
>>
>> One offers the ability to produce close source work which other people
>> will find hard to steal, while the other produces open source work that
>> is up for grabs for anybody who wants it.
>>
>> Why not say this sort of thing?
>>
>> The $20 a month wasn't bringing in the sort of moolah we need, so what
>> we did was dump it, and you can either go for the open source solution
>> (with the concommitent risks involved if you decide to try to make money
>> out of your open source offerings) or stump up a rather larger sum for
>> the, undoubted, benefits you will get from the commercial version.
>>
>> Also, RunRev may have got wind of sneaky characters like myself, who
>> would work on a bit of software as long as they liked on the community
>> version until it were "just right" and then pay ONLY $20 for a month's
>> go with the commercial version to pump out a code-protected standalone.
>>
>> Now, if that is the case, I cannot but agree with RunRev; they were
>> leaving themselves wide open to abuse.
>>
>>>
>>> Great to hear you're giving a talk, we'd love to hear how that goes!
>>> Please do feel free to email [hidden email] if there is some way
>>> we can assist either with materials or license options.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Heather
>>>
>>> On 28 Oct 2013, at 17:11, Rick Harrison wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi there,
>>>>
>>>> What ever happened to the $20 per month pay as you go commercial
>>>> license?
>>>>
>>>> I have to give a talk about LiveCode to a bunch of developers this
>>>> coming week, and that was an attractive license for them to get
>>>> started.
>>>> Is that gone now?
>>
>> Hey, want to hear a very old story about the chap who gave with one hand
>> while taking away with the other?
>>
>> Or, put another way: you cannot keep all the people happy all the time.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>> Heather Laine
>>> Customer Services Manager
>>> http://www.livecode.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Richmond.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


Richmond.

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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Monte Goulding

> I have an ongoing survey at http://qery.us/40u and the results very clearly show that a vast majority of RunRev users who are willing to invest a little money consists of hobby programmers and not companies: 44% of the respondents are hobby programmers and only 14% use LiveCode as the main tool to make a living; 20% are software developer but don't use LC (as the main tool or at all), 11% didn't indicate whether they use LC and the remaining 11% are teachers and students.

Well your survey is about your LC for the real beginner book which is probably not all that attractive to the commercial LC developer population so I wouldn't read too much into these stats.

--
Monte Goulding

M E R Goulding - software development services
mergExt - There's an external for that!





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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

xtalkprogrammer
Monte,

I really have no idea how you can say that. There is no argumentation
for your statement.

--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
KvK: 50277553

Use Color Converter to convert CMYK, RGB, RAL, XYZ, H.Lab and other
colour spaces. http://www.color-converter.com

Buy my new book "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner"
http://qery.us/3fi

Fill out this survey please
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com/survey/

On 10/28/2013 22:10, Monte Goulding wrote:

>
>> I have an ongoing survey at http://qery.us/40u and the results very clearly show that a vast majority of RunRev users who are willing to invest a little money consists of hobby programmers and not companies: 44% of the respondents are hobby programmers and only 14% use LiveCode as the main tool to make a living; 20% are software developer but don't use LC (as the main tool or at all), 11% didn't indicate whether they use LC and the remaining 11% are teachers and students.
>
> Well your survey is about your LC for the real beginner book which is probably not all that attractive to the commercial LC developer population so I wouldn't read too much into these stats.
>
> --
> Monte Goulding
>
> M E R Goulding - software development services
> mergExt - There's an external for that!
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> use-livecode mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>

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Drs. Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consultancy and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
Facebook: http://facebook.com/LiveCode.Beginner
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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

mwieder
Mark-

Monday, October 28, 2013, 2:23:30 PM, you wrote:

> Monte,

> I really have no idea how you can say that. There is no argumentation
> for your statement.

Well, let's see...

First of all, the title is "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner
Survey". Second, of the 17 questions, 15 are about *the book*. The
others are "enter your email" and "find a category for yourself". The
statistics you mentioned only cover 90% of the respondents. And your
survey *requires* all the questions to be answered, which means
respondents either have to have ordered the book or fill in a lot of
"I don't know" answers.

tl;dr - I didn't fill out the form.

--
-Mark Wieder
 [hidden email]


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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

xtalkprogrammer
Mark,

You really have no idea what you are talking about. I think you're just
trying to annoy me.

--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
KvK: 50277553

Use Color Converter to convert CMYK, RGB, RAL, XYZ, H.Lab and other
colour spaces. http://www.color-converter.com

Buy my new book "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner"
http://qery.us/3fi

Fill out this survey please
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com/survey/

On 10/28/2013 22:41, Mark Wieder wrote:

> Mark-
>
> Monday, October 28, 2013, 2:23:30 PM, you wrote:
>
>> Monte,
>
>> I really have no idea how you can say that. There is no argumentation
>> for your statement.
>
> Well, let's see...
>
> First of all, the title is "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner
> Survey". Second, of the 17 questions, 15 are about *the book*. The
> others are "enter your email" and "find a category for yourself". The
> statistics you mentioned only cover 90% of the respondents. And your
> survey *requires* all the questions to be answered, which means
> respondents either have to have ordered the book or fill in a lot of
> "I don't know" answers.
>
> tl;dr - I didn't fill out the form.
>

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Facebook: http://facebook.com/LiveCode.Beginner
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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Monte Goulding
In reply to this post by xtalkprogrammer

On 29/10/2013, at 8:23 AM, Mark Schonewille wrote:

> I really have no idea how you can say that. There is no argumentation for your statement.

My point was only that your target market for the book is "real beginners" so your survey is not going to capture the state of the full LiveCoder population. If your book were Commercial LiveCode Development then it would attract a different subset of the LiveCoder population to answer the survey. The stats relate only to those people that are interested in your book which is what I'm sure you wanted to know. To imply they can be used to "clearly show" anything about the "vast majority of RunRev users" is wrong. Mark Wieder also made some valid points about the survey itself which I didn't know because I didn't read the survey. I don't see either of our comments as trying to annoy you or commenting on your book in any way so there's no need to be over sensitive...

Cheers

--
M E R Goulding
Software development services
Bespoke application development for vertical markets

mergExt - There's an external for that!

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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

xtalkprogrammer
Monte,

You're just making assumptions.

--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
KvK: 50277553

Use Color Converter to convert CMYK, RGB, RAL, XYZ, H.Lab and other
colour spaces. http://www.color-converter.com

Buy my new book "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner"
http://qery.us/3fi

Fill out this survey please
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com/survey/

On 10/28/2013 23:30, Monte Goulding wrote:

>
> On 29/10/2013, at 8:23 AM, Mark Schonewille wrote:
>
>> I really have no idea how you can say that. There is no argumentation for your statement.
>
> My point was only that your target market for the book is "real beginners" so your survey is not going to capture the state of the full LiveCoder population. If your book were Commercial LiveCode Development then it would attract a different subset of the LiveCoder population to answer the survey. The stats relate only to those people that are interested in your book which is what I'm sure you wanted to know. To imply they can be used to "clearly show" anything about the "vast majority of RunRev users" is wrong. Mark Wieder also made some valid points about the survey itself which I didn't know because I didn't read the survey. I don't see either of our comments as trying to annoy you or commenting on your book in any way so there's no need to be over sensitive...
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> M E R Goulding
> Software development services
> Bespoke application development for vertical markets
>
> mergExt - There's an external for that!
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Monte Goulding

On 29/10/2013, at 9:37 AM, Mark Schonewille wrote:

> You're just making assumptions.


I would say "Which are?" but I really can't be bothered continuing this conversation with you being so unnecessarily defensive. Anybody that understands the basics of survey design and population statistics will understand well enough what I've said.

Cheers

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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Mark Wilcox
In reply to this post by xtalkprogrammer
>> I really have no idea how you can say that. There is no argumentation for your statement.


Here's some argumentation - I'm a developer that is new to LiveCode and interested in using it commercially in the future. I'm proficient in more languages than I have fingers, so I automatically assume that a book with "for the Real Beginner" in the title is not going to be suitable for me.

I must confess there's another reason I haven't even looked at the book - this community is incredibly friendly and supportive, even Richmond's rants are obviously backed by positive intentions. I only see one person regularly posting abrasive responses like this one, I can't say it's the best sales tactic I've ever seen. I realise email is a very easy medium for messages to be misunderstood, so please take that as friendly feedback on your posting style as at least one reader perceives it.

All this said, I do think RunRev have probably got their pricing strategy wrong. The cross-platform tools with large growing user bases and decent profits (there aren't many of them) all have some kind of limited free commercial license - often both feature limited and with a revenue cap on the person/organisation. They also have more expensive full licenses than RunRev. Trying to cover everyone with a single license fee is almost definitely sub-optimal. From the VisionMobile research (6000 developers last time - they have another survey running now) I can say that about 1/3 of all mobile app developers are hobbyists and another 10+% are "explorers" - part time app developers with another, usually development related, day job. Without a free commercial option these people will not start a potentially commercial (even small scale) project in LiveCode, whereas, if you can get people started there's a chance they'll either be successful and want more, or
 just invest enough time in the project that a little license fee to get more features for their beloved creation doesn't seem so big. However, it's got to be scary to have a model that's barely supporting a big enough team to keep the product running and risk throwing away existing revenue hoping for a bigger future payoff. I don't know about anyone else but the level and tone of marketing I'm getting at the moment smells a bit of desperation.
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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

xtalkprogrammer
In reply to this post by Monte Goulding
Monte,

Anyone with some understanding of the basics of survey design and
statistics will understand why your statements make no sense.

--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
KvK: 50277553

Use Color Converter to convert CMYK, RGB, RAL, XYZ, H.Lab and other
colour spaces. http://www.color-converter.com

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http://qery.us/3fi

Fill out this survey please
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com/survey/

On 10/28/2013 23:49, Monte Goulding wrote:

>
> On 29/10/2013, at 9:37 AM, Mark Schonewille wrote:
>
>> You're just making assumptions.
>
>
> I would say "Which are?" but I really can't be bothered continuing this conversation with you being so unnecessarily defensive. Anybody that understands the basics of survey design and population statistics will understand well enough what I've said.
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> M E R Goulding
> Software development services
> Bespoke application development for vertical markets
>
> mergExt - There's an external for that!
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

xtalkprogrammer
In reply to this post by Mark Wilcox
Mark,

I don't see why a book for beginners wouldn't be for commercial
programmers. A commercial programmer needs to start somewhere too.

It is interesting that the figures you mention aren't very different
from what I observe in my survey. I count (relatively) a little more
hobbyists than the VisionMobile survey.

I'm glad that you agree with my objection to the pricing strategy. Let's
hope RunRev will give this another thought.

--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
KvK: 50277553

Use Color Converter to convert CMYK, RGB, RAL, XYZ, H.Lab and other
colour spaces. http://www.color-converter.com

Buy my new book "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner"
http://qery.us/3fi

Fill out this survey please
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com/survey/

On 10/29/2013 00:01, Mark Wilcox wrote:

>>> I really have no idea how you can say that. There is no argumentation for your statement.
>
>
> Here's some argumentation - I'm a developer that is new to LiveCode and interested in using it commercially in the future. I'm proficient in more languages than I have fingers, so I automatically assume that a book with "for the Real Beginner" in the title is not going to be suitable for me.
>
> I must confess there's another reason I haven't even looked at the book - this community is incredibly friendly and supportive, even Richmond's rants are obviously backed by positive intentions. I only see one person regularly posting abrasive responses like this one, I can't say it's the best sales tactic I've ever seen. I realise email is a very easy medium for messages to be misunderstood, so please take that as friendly feedback on your posting style as at least one reader perceives it.
>
> All this said, I do think RunRev have probably got their pricing strategy wrong. The cross-platform tools with large growing user bases and decent profits (there aren't many of them) all have some kind of limited free commercial license - often both feature limited and with a revenue cap on the person/organisation. They also have more expensive full licenses than RunRev. Trying to cover everyone with a single license fee is almost definitely sub-optimal. From the VisionMobile research (6000 developers last time - they have another survey running now) I can say that about 1/3 of all mobile app developers are hobbyists and another 10+% are "explorers" - part time app developers with another, usually development related, day job. Without a free commercial option these people will not start a potentially commercial (even small scale) project in LiveCode, whereas, if you can get people started there's a chance they'll either be successful and want more, or
>   just invest enough time in the project that a little license fee to get more features for their beloved creation doesn't seem so big. However, it's got to be scary to have a model that's barely supporting a big enough team to keep the product running and risk throwing away existing revenue hoping for a bigger future payoff. I don't know about anyone else but the level and tone of marketing I'm getting at the moment smells a bit of desperation.
> _______________________________________________
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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

Mark Wilcox
>> I don't see why a book for beginners wouldn't be for commercial programmers. A commercial programmer needs to start somewhere too.

This is true - but a commercial programmer doesn't usually start their programming career thinking "I'm going to create an app to sell". Typically people learn to code first, then figure out how to earn money doing it. Developers who learned to code so they could create a commercial app are very much the exception, not the rule. You don't usually go through the "real beginner" stage with commercial intent - I assume this includes learning about things like conditionals and loops. So all I'm saying is that a programmer new to LiveCode but not new to programming is likely to be put off by "for the Real Beginner" because it implies re-hashing a bunch of stuff they already know to learn the syntax and get to the interesting and unique features of the language rather than just jumping right to those things.

I mentioned the VisionMobile figures because yours weren't that far off, although I also agree with Monte that your survey design and promotion are very likely to suffer from "sampling bias" (to use the technical term). Even the VisionMobile survey inevitably suffers from some sampling bias but the questions are carefully designed and the sources of responses monitored so that it can be corrected for in various ways. It's extremely difficult to get reliable stats from non-mandatory surveys.

Mark
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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

xtalkprogrammer
Mark,

Although people usually learn to code first and then decide to make a
commercial app, I see plenty of very experienced coders make the
transition to LiveCode. It is people like those who kept asking me for a
book to help them get a grasp of LC quickly.

Regarding the bias: I know what I'm doing, but I have no interest in
explaining it all.

--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
Homepage: http://economy-x-talk.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/xtalkprogrammer
KvK: 50277553

Use Color Converter to convert CMYK, RGB, RAL, XYZ, H.Lab and other
colour spaces. http://www.color-converter.com

Buy my new book "Programming LiveCode for the Real Beginner"
http://qery.us/3fi

Fill out this survey please
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com/survey/

On 10/29/2013 01:01, Mark Wilcox wrote:
>>>   I don't see why a book for beginners wouldn't be for commercial programmers. A commercial programmer needs to start somewhere too.
>
> This is true - but a commercial programmer doesn't usually start their programming career thinking "I'm going to create an app to sell". Typically people learn to code first, then figure out how to earn money doing it. Developers who learned to code so they could create a commercial app are very much the exception, not the rule. You don't usually go through the "real beginner" stage with commercial intent - I assume this includes learning about things like conditionals and loops. So all I'm saying is that a programmer new to LiveCode but not new to programming is likely to be put off by "for the Real Beginner" because it implies re-hashing a bunch of stuff they already know to learn the syntax and get to the interesting and unique features of the language rather than just jumping right to those things.
>
> I mentioned the VisionMobile figures because yours weren't that far off, although I also agree with Monte that your survey design and promotion are very likely to suffer from "sampling bias" (to use the technical term). Even the VisionMobile survey inevitably suffers from some sampling bias but the questions are carefully designed and the sources of responses monitored so that it can be corrected for in various ways. It's extremely difficult to get reliable stats from non-mandatory surveys.
>
> Mark


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Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"

dunbarxx
In reply to this post by Mark Wilcox
A little disconcerting to have a public tiff among highly respected old-timers.


Anyway,



There are many new users who seem to have started LC with an app in mind, usually mobile, These persons, I would have to call them "commercial" programmers, ask questions here and in the forum far beyond their capabilities, having moved too fast for their own good. They ask questions involving aspects of LC that are pretty advanced, yet having little experience with the "put" command.


Of all possible development tools, LC seems to be a breeding ground of such starry eyed optimism. This is a good thing, though it probably leaves a trail of discouraged users, disappointed that their efforts do not bear fruit because they do not have, and will not work to attain, a fundamental understanding of the program.


Lazy kids, mostly. But not all...


Thinking of how HC used to engender that sort of thing.


Craig Newman



-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Wilcox <[hidden email]>
To: How to use LiveCode <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 8:02 pm
Subject: Re: "Introducing New LiveCode Licenses"


>> I don't see why a book for beginners wouldn't be for commercial programmers.
A commercial programmer needs to start somewhere too.

This is true - but a commercial programmer doesn't usually start their
programming career thinking "I'm going to create an app to sell". Typically
people learn to code first, then figure out how to earn money doing it.
Developers who learned to code so they could create a commercial app are very
much the exception, not the rule. You don't usually go through the "real
beginner" stage with commercial intent - I assume this includes learning about
things like conditionals and loops. So all I'm saying is that a programmer new
to LiveCode but not new to programming is likely to be put off by "for the Real
Beginner" because it implies re-hashing a bunch of stuff they already know to
learn the syntax and get to the interesting and unique features of the language
rather than just jumping right to those things.

I mentioned the VisionMobile figures because yours weren't that far off,
although I also agree with Monte that your survey design and promotion are very
likely to suffer from "sampling bias" (to use the technical term). Even the
VisionMobile survey inevitably suffers from some sampling bias but the questions
are carefully designed and the sources of responses monitored so that it can be
corrected for in various ways. It's extremely difficult to get reliable stats
from non-mandatory surveys.

Mark
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