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template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
 From LiveCode 8.0 upwards when one wants a new stack one is given a menu
of choices for iPads, iPhones and so on.

Is there a way to edit that menu PERMANENTLY so one
can accommodate one's own sizes?

Richmond.
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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
Hi Richmond,

> Am 28.07.2017 um 11:30 schrieb Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode <[hidden email]>:
>
> From LiveCode 8.0 upwards when one wants a new stack one is given a menu
> of choices for iPads, iPhones and so on.
>
> Is there a way to edit that menu PERMANENTLY so one
> can accommodate one's own sizes?

not permanently, since this will be gone with every new version of LC.

But why not create a plug-in? Nothing easier that that:
Create a stack
Add a pulldown menu (or whtever menu-button you like)
Put this into the menuitems (text of button)
100,100
200,200
400,400
etc. for all wanted sizes, you get the picture

And this is the script for that menubutton:

on menupick which
set the width of the templatestack to item 1 of which
set the height of the templatestack to item 2 of which

##set the loc of the templatestack to the screenloc

## Set some important props first:
set the alwaysbuffer of the templatestack to TRUE
set the destroystack of the templatestack to TRUE
set the destroywindow of the templatestack to TRUE
set the resizable of the templatestack to TRUE
create stack

## Always clean up!
reset the templatestack
end menupick

Put it into you LC plugin folder and that's it! :-)

> Richmond.

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
http://www.major-k.de
[hidden email]


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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
On 2017-07-28 11:30, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
> From LiveCode 8.0 upwards when one wants a new stack one is given a
> menu
> of choices for iPads, iPhones and so on.
>
> Is there a way to edit that menu PERMANENTLY so one
> can accommodate one's own sizes?

That is perhaps something we could add to preferences so you could
configure... Feel free to file an enhancement request for it in the
quality center :)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
> Richmond wrote:
> From LiveCode 8.0 upwards when one wants a new stack one is given a
> menu of choices for iPads, iPhones and so on.
> Is there a way to edit that menu PERMANENTLY so one can accommodate
> one's own sizes?

Just type into the messageBox

      revIDENewMainstack <yourWidth>,<yourHeight>

for example:

      revIDENewMainstack 400,900
      revIDENewMainstack sqrt(1600),30^2

LiveCode is so wonderful ;-)


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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
Forget to remark:

      revIDENewMainstack 40,30 = revIDENewMainstack 400,400

because

revIDENewMainstack yourWidth,yourHeight

sets new width to the maximum of yourWidth and 400
sets new height to the maximum of yourHeight and 400

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
Of course my "look-up" in the IDE:

      revIDENewMainstack max(<yourWidth>,400),max(<yourHeight>,400)

is quick and dirty compared to the clever plugin-solution of Klaus:

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2017-July/239883.html

Sorry Klaus. I overlooked your post. I really write too much and read
too fast here. I'll better stop it now for a couple of months or so ...

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
 
 

 Default dimension is 400 (missing value) but if specified then 101 would be the smallest (if pHeight  >  100 then...)
 

 
 

 
 
>  
> On Jul 28, 2017 at 10:06 AM,  <hh via use-livecode (mailto:[hidden email])>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  Forget to remark: revIDENewMainstack 40,30 = revIDENewMainstack 400,400 because revIDENewMainstack yourWidth,yourHeight sets new width to the maximum of yourWidth and 400 sets new height to the maximum of yourHeight and 400 _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list [hidden email] Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode 
>
>  
 
 
 
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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
On 07/28/2017 02:50 AM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:

>> Is there a way to edit that menu PERMANENTLY so one
>> can accommodate one's own sizes?
>
> not permanently, since this will be gone with every new version of LC.
>
> But why not create a plug-in? Nothing easier that that:
> Create a stack

Or...
you might find that this is already built into the stack factory feature
of PowerTools.

http://ahsoftware.net/PowerTools/PowerTools_Objects.lc

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  Mark Wieder
  [hidden email]


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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
Hallo Hermann,

> Am 28.07.2017 um 17:18 schrieb hh via use-livecode <[hidden email]>:
>
> Of course my "look-up" in the IDE:
>
>      revIDENewMainstack max(<yourWidth>,400),max(<yourHeight>,400)
>
> is quick and dirty compared to the clever plugin-solution of Klaus:
> http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2017-July/239883.html

well, that code is from my "tools2" palette I created in the old MetaCard days
about 15 years ago, when there was no revIDE stuff available! :-D

> Sorry Klaus. I overlooked your post. I really write too much and read
> too fast here. I'll better stop it now for a couple of months or so ...

Hey, hey, no need of any excuse really. :-)


Best

Klaus

--
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http://www.major-k.de
[hidden email]


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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
Am I the only one who doesn't make all of his stacks the same size? :)

I generally don't care what size they're created at.  I resize them as I
work by dragging the edges, as users do.

In those cases where I need a fixed size, the specific dimensions are
rarely discernible in advance, something I'll need to figure out after
I've done the layout.

In the rarer case where I need multiple stacks of a specific size,
chances are I need more common elements than just size, so I'll make one
how I need it and then clone it.

But those seem pretty rare to me.  On desktop my windows tend to be
different sizes, and on mobile it's important that they be responsive to
any screen size; in either case the specific dimensions at the moment of
creation seem of little value.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
On 2017-07-28 18:01, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> But those seem pretty rare to me.  On desktop my windows tend to be
> different sizes, and on mobile it's important that they be responsive
> to any screen size; in either case the specific dimensions at the
> moment of creation seem of little value.

All of this is very true... However, Richard, how long have you been
designing/programming/building apps for?

A new user coming to a programming environment (of any kind) is usually
presented with a wealth of choices. Every choice which can at least be
parameterised / or constrained as the first step makes things 'easier'
(in some sense).

This is particularly pertinent to mobile - for sure, all apps should be
able to adapt to all screen sizes. However, in reality when you start
out you have to choose one size. Hence the options in the New Stack
menu. It isn't perfect, but at least means a brand new user has some
chance of choosing a size which will actually fit pixel-for-pixel on the
device they have next to them to play with.

Now, that menu is not perfect - we know its not - you've pointed that
out to us often enough ;)

However, we are now actively involved in a process of trying to evaluate
what 'first-run' things do actually (measurably) make a difference. I'm
sure that particular menu will be the subject of such 'tests' at some
point in the process :)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps


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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
Mark Waddingham wrote:

 > On 2017-07-28 18:01, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
 >> But those seem pretty rare to me.  On desktop my windows tend to be
 >> different sizes, and on mobile it's important that they be responsive
 >> to any screen size; in either case the specific dimensions at the
 >> moment of creation seem of little value.
 >
 > All of this is very true... However, Richard, how long have you been
 > designing/programming/building apps for?

I don't matter.  What matters is how long a new user has been using
software to want to begin making it.  It doesn't takes long to observe
that on desktop windows are most frequently different sizes, and mobile
devices come in different sizes.

I haven't suggested we get rid of the device-oriented sizes, only
questioning the utility of creating and maintaining a prefs setting for
the Default size.

We already have prefs for controls so maybe it doesn't matter so much.
But the prefs file has become such a source of pervasive brittleness
(how often is ditching the prefs file presented as the answer to a
surprisingly wide range of reported issues?) I just find myself
increasingly pondering whether some of these things need to be
preferences at all.

I won't bother me one way or another, since like Klaus and Mark Wieder I
make new stacks from a custom plug-in.  If there are enough folks who
find it valuable to makes desktop windows of a specific size, go for it.
  I just don't see many apps that need that, so no matter what size the
stack happens to be created at, most of the time they'll resize it as
they work.  It doesn't take a seasoned professional to see when you've
run out of room in a window. :)


 > A new user coming to a programming environment (of any kind) is
 > usually presented with a wealth of choices. Every choice which can
 > at least be parameterised / or constrained as the first step makes
 > things 'easier' (in some sense).
 >
 > This is particularly pertinent to mobile - for sure, all apps should
 > be able to adapt to all screen sizes. However, in reality when you
 > start out you have to choose one size. Hence the options in the New
 > Stack menu.

I see good value in providing a general size for phones and another for
tablets.  Having those available in the New Stack submenu is not a bad
thing at all.

Rather than dropping those altogether (which I've never advocated), it
seems more helpful to the new user that we take full advantage of the
opportunity to communicate up front just how useful and flexible
LiveCode is.

One of LC's greatest strengths is the remarkable job you and the rest of
the team do for multi-platform support.  So it seems a shame to convey
to the new user that LiveCode is for iOS exclusively (the only options
provided in the New Stack menu are brand-specific).

Another great thing your team has done is provide wonderful support for
resolution independence, with good resize messaging for most aops and
even fullScreenMode for easy implementation of presentation-style apps.
These allow us to make one good UI that'll work great on all phones or
tablets.  But rather than guide the user to how we actually do things,
the Neew Stack menu items imply that they'll need to slavishly copy
their layouts among any number of device-specific sizes.  Experienced
users don't do that, and a new user won't stick around long enough to
become an experienced user if they feel that's what they have to do.

LiveCode is powerful and flexible.  Let's celebrate that in ways that
guide the user to good practice though enticingly useful UI options.

And again, those refinements to the mobile-specific items in the New
Stack menu are a separate matter from settable dimensions for the
Default size.  In practice, new and old users alike will learn as soon
as they start laying out their controls that they will need different
sizes for different windows.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
On 2017-07-28 19:20, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> I haven't suggested we get rid of the device-oriented sizes, only
> questioning the utility of creating and maintaining a prefs setting
> for the Default size.

Heh - well I perhaps got the wrong end of the stick of this thread then
:)

> We already have prefs for controls so maybe it doesn't matter so much.
> But the prefs file has become such a source of pervasive brittleness
> (how often is ditching the prefs file presented as the answer to a
> surprisingly wide range of reported issues?) I just find myself
> increasingly pondering whether some of these things need to be
> preferences at all.

Geez - tell me about it! Seriously we know its a problem. Like a fair
few other problems, from the surface it seems like 'it should be easy to
fix' but when you start pulling on that bit of string, you find it is
almost never ending (the term 'Yak-Shave' springs to mind).

That being said Ali has been looking at this - we don't want a repeat of
the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up' - and that was entirely down to a spelling
error which *perhaps* would not have happened had we had a more
structured approach to professionals.

As long as preferences are done in a structured manner and you choose
sensible defaults for them all, then there is no harm in having a lot of
them. Indeed, I could take Sublime Text as an example. It has a huge
array of preference settings - however, they have chosen sensible
defaults for all of them, and they are really easy to modify (they are
all stored in a JSON file - per user).

Indeed, I'd perhaps say that having fine control (via preferences) over
all things where a human had to make an explicit choice in design turns
a good tool into a great tool - particularly for those that consider
them 'professional' in some manner or means. It allows them to tailor
the environment to their explicit needs - as they understand more of
what the environment can do.

Failing to provide such an ability means that you end up appealing to
the 'lowest common denominator' in some sense - which might be fine when
you start out in any tool, but as you mature you generally find that
things start to irk. And as things start to irk, the tool becomes less
enjoyable to use.

> I see good value in providing a general size for phones and another
> for tablets.  Having those available in the New Stack submenu is not a
> bad thing at all.
>
> Rather than dropping those altogether (which I've never advocated), it
> seems more helpful to the new user that we take full advantage of the
> opportunity to communicate up front just how useful and flexible
> LiveCode is.
>
> One of LC's greatest strengths is the remarkable job you and the rest
> of the team do for multi-platform support.  So it seems a shame to
> convey to the new user that LiveCode is for iOS exclusively (the only
> options provided in the New Stack menu are brand-specific).

Yes - I agree - this is just something we haven't got around to sorting
out yet. (Okay so it might be a 'simple' thing, however in a sea of
'simple' things, one still only has so much time so one has to
prioritise).

> And again, those refinements to the mobile-specific items in the New
> Stack menu are a separate matter from settable dimensions for the
> Default size.  In practice, new and old users alike will learn as soon
> as they start laying out their controls that they will need different
> sizes for different windows.

Indeed - they are - I perhaps conflated the two. However, it has
produced an interesting point of dicussion...

If we can agree that it does make *some* sense to have preconfigured
sizes in the New Stack menu (for the sake of argument at least - it is
only real use in a measurable environment which can give us the numbers
to know whether it does or does not make sense) - what could we do there
to make it better. i.e. Provide the facility, without the downsides
which you suggest (which are all entirely valid!).

Warmest Regards

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
On 2017-07-28 19:33, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
> That being said Ali has been looking at this - we don't want a repeat
> of the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up' - and that was entirely down to a
> spelling error which *perhaps* would not have happened had we had a
> more structured approach to professionals.

Heh - that clearly should have been 'preferences' :)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode


On 7/28/17 7:01 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> Am I the only one who doesn't make all of his stacks the same size? :)

No, you're not . . .

*BUT*, imagine working for an employer who had fixated on a set size;
things would be a lot quicker if everytime one fired up LiveCode to knock
of a *prototype* (hey, haven't heard that word for a long, long time) .
. . .

>
> I generally don't care what size they're created at.  I resize them as
> I work by dragging the edges, as users do.
>
> In those cases where I need a fixed size, the specific dimensions are
> rarely discernible in advance, something I'll need to figure out after
> I've done the layout.
>
> In the rarer case where I need multiple stacks of a specific size,
> chances are I need more common elements than just size, so I'll make
> one how I need it and then clone it.
>
> But those seem pretty rare to me.  On desktop my windows tend to be
> different sizes, and on mobile it's important that they be responsive
> to any screen size; in either case the specific dimensions at the
> moment of creation seem of little value.
>

Richmond.
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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
On 7/28/17 12:35 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
> On 2017-07-28 19:33, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
>> That being said Ali has been looking at this - we don't want a repeat
>> of the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up' - and that was entirely down to a
>> spelling error which *perhaps* would not have happened had we had a
>> more structured approach to professionals.
>
> Heh - that clearly should have been 'preferences' :)

Autocorrect, I really hate your shirt.

--
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HyperActive Software           |     http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
Can we all have free T-shirts with "*the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up'**"
on them ?

Love, Richmond.
*
On 7/28/17 9:12 pm, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

> On 7/28/17 12:35 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
>> On 2017-07-28 19:33, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
>>> That being said Ali has been looking at this - we don't want a repeat
>>> of the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up' - and that was entirely down to a
>>> spelling error which *perhaps* would not have happened had we had a
>>> more structured approach to professionals.
>>
>> Heh - that clearly should have been 'preferences' :)
>
> Autocorrect, I really hate your shirt.
>

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
On 2017-07-28 20:12, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

> On 7/28/17 12:35 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
>> On 2017-07-28 19:33, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
>>> That being said Ali has been looking at this - we don't want a repeat
>>> of the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up' - and that was entirely down to a
>>> spelling error which *perhaps* would not have happened had we had a
>>> more structured approach to professionals.
>>
>> Heh - that clearly should have been 'preferences' :)
>
> Autocorrect, I really hate your shirt.

Haha - if only it were autocorrect in this instance (it generally is if
sending from my iPhone).

In this case (on my laptop) I think it was because I was thinking about
the next paragraph whilst still writing that one. So more a
buffering/data transport problem - my fingers are clearly connected to
my brain by UDP and not TCP/IP ;)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
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LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
Richmond Mathewson wrote:

 > On 7/28/17 7:01 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
 >> Am I the only one who doesn't make all of his stacks the same size? :)
 >
 > No, you're not . . .
 >
 > *BUT*, imagine working for an employer who had fixated on a set size;
 > things would be a lot quicker if everytime one fired up LiveCode to
 > knock of a *prototype* (hey, haven't heard that word for a long, long
 > time) .

But it's probably not a blank stack they're looking for.  Cloning a
stack already prepared with the relevant properties, scripts, and
objects would be much more efficient.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  ____________________________________________________________________
  [hidden email]                http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: template stacks

** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
In reply to this post by ** Clarence P Martin ** via use-livecode
On 07/28/2017 10:33 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

>> And again, those refinements to the mobile-specific items in the New
>> Stack menu are a separate matter from settable dimensions for the
>> Default size.  In practice, new and old users alike will learn as soon
>> as they start laying out their controls that they will need different
>> sizes for different windows.
>
> Indeed - they are - I perhaps conflated the two. However, it has
> produced an interesting point of dicussion...
>
> If we can agree that it does make *some* sense to have preconfigured
> sizes in the New Stack menu (for the sake of argument at least - it is
> only real use in a measurable environment which can give us the numbers
> to know whether it does or does not make sense) - what could we do there
> to make it better. i.e. Provide the facility, without the downsides
> which you suggest (which are all entirely valid!).

I've taken a middle route for the Stack Factory in PowerTools:

In addition to a dozen or so predefined sizes there's a menuItem for
'custom'. That brings up a dialog box that allows you to select the
desired height and width. And then those values are stored in the
preferences file. After that point, in addition to the 'custom' menuItem
there is a 'Most Recent' menuItem for the value you stored in the custom
setting, so that you don't have to enter them again next time.

--
  Mark Wieder
  [hidden email]

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